Timing of the Pink Letter

[pigpiginsunspear]

I've had a nagging question about the Pink Letter...I'm hoping this isn't obvious and I've just missed it.

 

Jon receives the letter which says:

 

"Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore."

 

I don't understand how the timing works here.  WoW is going to open with two big battle scenes (supposedly): Winterfell and Slaver's Bay.

 

How can Stannis have died in seven days of battle?  The only explanation I can think of is that the battle in the ice will take place before Jon receives the letter (i.e. back in time)- presumably while Jon is still alive.

 

[spoiler]Another point here...Stannis is alive and well at least in one chapter of WoW. No indication that the battle is near. So there must have been a pretty substantial time gap between the alleged battle and when Jon received the Pink Letter.[/spoiler]

 

Unless GRRM is jumping in the future a little bit in ADWD or taking a look back in WoW, the Pink Letter has to be fake? Am I missing something?

 

[The Mountain That Flies]

Timelines from different POV's do not always line up perfectly, so it's possible to hear about repercussions of an event in one chapter but not see the event itself until later.

Of course, there is also the possibility of the letter being fake.

[Ser Eric]

I've had a nagging question about the Pink Letter...I'm hoping this isn't obvious and I've just missed it.

 

Jon receives the letter which says:

 

"Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore."

 

I don't understand how the timing works here.  WoW is going to open with two big battle scenes (supposedly): Winterfell and Slaver's Bay.

 

How can Stannis have died in seven days of battle?  The only explanation I can think of is that the battle in the ice will take place before Jon receives the letter (i.e. back in time)- presumably while Jon is still alive.

 

[spoiler]Another point here...Stannis is alive and well at least in one chapter of WoW. No indication that the battle is near. So there must have been a pretty substantial time gap between the alleged battle and when Jon received the Pink Letter.[/spoiler]

 

Unless GRRM is jumping in the future a little bit in ADWD or taking a look back in WoW, the Pink Letter has to be fake? Am I missing something?

 

 

"7 days of battle" is probably exaggeration on Ramsay's part.

[sarah.jenice]

Timelines from different POV's do not always line up perfectly, so it's possible to hear about repercussions of an event in one chapter but not see the event itself until later.

Of course, there is also the possibility of the letter being fake.

I agree with this. It also reminds me of how we heard Davos was dead in AFfC and found out it wasn't true in ADwD. I've learned not to believe a character is dead if they don't die "on screen."

 

Also OP, if you're new to the forums, there are countless posts with speculation on the Pink Letter that you might find helpful.

[The hairy bear]

Pigpiginsunspear,

 

I think that it's in Storm of Sword that Martin includes a foreword warning that the chapters are not sorted out in chronological order. This was even more obvious in A Feast for Crows, where we see the immediate reactions of Balon's death (that happens halfway ASOS) or Tywin (at ASOS' two thirds or so).

 

Martin has even published in his site the first Reek chapter of TWOW, and it takes place clearly before Jon's last chapter in ADWD.

[A Bastard Snow]

 
"7 days of battle" is probably exaggeration on Ramsay's part.

I don't think it is.I imagine Stannis/Manderlys attacked the Freys led by Hosteen and routed them.Then for 7 days they hunted down and killed or captured them all preventing any news from reaching WF besides what Stannis wants them to know.That's what I think happened.

[spoon89]

Pigpiginsunspear,

 

I think that it's in Storm of Sword that Martin includes a foreword warning that the chapters are not sorted out in chronological order. This was even more obvious in A Feast for Crows, where we see the immediate reactions of Balon's death (that happens halfway ASOS) or Tywin (at ASOS' two thirds or so).

 

Martin has even published in his site the first Reek chapter of TWOW, and it takes place clearly before Jon's last chapter in ADWD.

 

A lot of the series (from the beginning) has been out of overall chronological order, the only true chronological order is on a per POV bases (all chapters for a POV are in order).

[three-eyed monkey]

GRRM added this note when he first published the Theon chapter from TWoW on his website.

The chronology, as usual, is tricky. This chapter will be found eventually at the beginning of WINDS, but as you will be able to tell from context, it actually takes place before some of the chapters at the end of DANCE.

And by "some of the chapters at the end of DANCE" he means Jon XIII.

[Monoman32]

There is a theory that Stannis is faking his own death to pull a Trojan Horse against the Boltons.  As others have pointed out, the chronology is messy when it comes to POV chapters.  

[Good Guy Garlan]

Yeah, I think we'll go back in time for a bit with Stannis and the Boltons. And this would allow GRRM to keep Jon's fate hidden for a little longer, since there's no point showing us what we already saw in Dance.

[falcotron]

There is a theory that Stannis is faking his own death to pull a Trojan Horse against the Boltons.  As others have pointed out, the chronology is messy when it comes to POV chapters.

The problem with using a Trojan Horse against the Boltons is that Ramsay is more likely to set fire to a beautiful horse sculpture than to bring it inside to show off to his people.

Unless Stannis rigs it to cover Ramsay in sweet & sour pork when he goes to set it on fire, after which Stannis and his Mongolians will appear and attack the wall while he's stuck and can't do anything about it.

[Minuteman]

The letter is a fake, for the most part. Ramsey knows about Mance and the six women he brought with him true enough. Likely he captured one or more of the six women accompanying Mance (one is known to have been killed so five remain) - my guess would be the one doing battle on the bridge as Theon and Jeyne jumped. Possibly the one who swapped for Jeyne but I think it more likely she would escape. Ramsey flayed his captive and she spilled all which is how he learned of Mance and the plot to free Jeyne. The letter has too many errors in it to suggest that Ramsey knows any more than what one of the captured women would tell him. Note also thatRamsey said six skins made of women but the one who was killed went over the battlement and would have disappeared into the same snow that allowed Theon and Jeyne to escape so he could not have plausibly flayed her as he would not have had her body and even if so she was dead already. He probably doesn't even know that that woman was killed which is why he still is saying six. He believes that Jon has Jeyne and Theon (he doesn't, Stannis does, but he thinks Jon does because that was the original plan and the only thing his captive would know). He also makes no mention of Asha Greyjoy or the Iron Banker both of whom would be VERY prominent captives or noted dead if Stannis was in fact defeated (leaving out Theon and Jeyne). So the Pink Letter, which was in fact written by Ramsey, is a total fabrication. Mance, Theon,Jeyne, and four of the six women accompanying Mance have likely simply disappeared and Ramsey is throwing a tantrum.

[Philpenn]

^^ Nice one. The points about the numbers of, and missing captives especially.

[pigpiginsunspear]

Yeah I figured it was an timing setup.  I just remember, on my first reading, not even for a moment considering the letter to be real (partly because of the timing).

[pigpiginsunspear]

Would be really interesting if it were Stannis.  I don't think he has it in him to be so slippery (it would be beyond devious if Stannis was the one to right it).

 

Also why would Stannis write it?  He may need reinforcements..but by the time Jon gets there, it would be too late.

[GuardstheRealmsofMen]

The letter is a fake, for the most part. Ramsey knows about Mance and the six women he brought with him true enough. Likely he captured one or more of the six women accompanying Mance (one is known to have been killed so five remain) - my guess would be the one doing battle on the bridge as Theon and Jeyne jumped. Possibly the one who swapped for Jeyne but I think it more likely she would escape. Ramsey flayed his captive and she spilled all which is how he learned of Mance and the plot to free Jeyne. The letter has too many errors in it to suggest that Ramsey knows any more than what one of the captured women would tell him. Note also thatRamsey said six skins made of women but the one who was killed went over the battlement and would have disappeared into the same snow that allowed Theon and Jeyne to escape so he could not have plausibly flayed her as he would not have had her body and even if so she was dead already. He probably doesn't even know that that woman was killed which is why he still is saying six. He believes that Jon has Jeyne and Theon (he doesn't, Stannis does, but he thinks Jon does because that was the original plan and the only thing his captive would know). He also makes no mention of Asha Greyjoy or the Iron Banker both of whom would be VERY prominent captives or noted dead if Stannis was in fact defeated (leaving out Theon and Jeyne). So the Pink Letter, which was in fact written by Ramsey, is a total fabrication. Mance, Theon,Jeyne, and four of the six women accompanying Mance have likely simply disappeared and Ramsey is throwing a tantrum.

Strong theory. Definitely feels accurate to me. 

[Marcus Agrippa]

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3c99ri/spoilers_all_connecting_the_dots_on_lady_dustin/

 

I like this one personally. It would explain why she is so imporant.

[Criston of House Shapper]

Pigpiginsunspear,

 

I think that it's in Storm of Sword that Martin includes a foreword warning that the chapters are not sorted out in chronological order. This was even more obvious in A Feast for Crows, where we see the immediate reactions of Balon's death (that happens halfway ASOS) or Tywin (at ASOS' two thirds or so).

 

Martin has even published in his site the first Reek chapter of TWOW, and it takes place clearly before Jon's last chapter in ADWD.

 

No, that one is actually in one of the last chapters, I think right before the one where Lysa dies, which is right before the epilogue.

[The hairy bear]

Criston,

 

I meant Oberyn. Thanks for pointing out the lapse. :)

[pigpiginsunspear]

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3c99ri/spoilers_all_connecting_the_dots_on_lady_dustin/

 

I like this one personally. It would explain why she is so imporant.

 

Yeah this one is my favorite.  I've always wondered why she's such a character in ADWD.

 

The portion about come Stannis' friends on the wall is so convincing.