Jump to content

Heresy 174


Black Crow

Recommended Posts

Welcome to Heresy 174, the latest version of the thread which tries to take a thoughtful, often sideways and occasionally irreverent look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

 

If new to the game, don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed here over the years since its founding in 2011. This is very much a come as you are thread with no previous experience required. We’re very welcoming and very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour

 

Heresy is not of itself a theory and heretics do not as a group take and hold a particular stance on issues, or even agree with each other. Instead it’s a free-flowing and above all a very friendly series of open discussions and arguments, usually concerned with the Wall, the Otherlands which lie beyond; warging, skinchanging, greenseeing, the old gods, the children and the white walkers - and the possible Stark connection to both.

 

The strength and the beauty and ultimately the value of Heresy as a critical discussion group is that it reflects this diversity. This is a thread where ideas can be discussed – and argued – freely, because above all it is about an exchange of ideas and sometimes too a remarkably well informed exchange drawing upon an astonishing broad base of literature ranging through Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness and so many others all to the way to the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Mabinogion; it’s about history [and especially that vastly under-rated date of1189] It’s about mythology, archaeology, ringworks and chambered tombs and even heroic geology, but above all it’s about the Song of Ice and Fire.

 

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic. Be warned though that Heresy is constantly moving and evolving and that what was once regarded as important may now be exploded.

 

Beyond that, read on, but first a couple of notices:

 

First, as you’ll be aware an attempt to upgrade the forum last week didn’t quite work. Currently we’re back on the old one but we’ve been warned that when the migration actually happens we’ll lose everything which has been posted since the first attempt. Such is life. On migration Heresy will resume by opening a new thread using the next available number rather that confusing everybody by continuing with last week’s one.

 

Secondly, we did have in mind running Heresy 175 as a special, examining possible alternatives for Jon Snow’s father. Like Topsy, however, it has “grewed” and the current plan is that Wolfmaid and Mace will run it as a parallel but separate mini-series. In view of  the upcoming migration, commencement will now be delayed until we’re on the new forum.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

October 1993

 

Dear Ralph,

 

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

 

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

 

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

 

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

 

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

 

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

 

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

 

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

 

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

 

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

 

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

 

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

 

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

 

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

 

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

 

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

 

[7 Lines Redacted]

 

But that's the second book...

 

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

 

All best,

George R.R. Martin

 

 

 

What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis/publisher’s blurb for Winds of Winter; not the forthcoming one, alas, but one apparently dating back to when it was still to be the third volume of the trilogy and following directly on in content and style from the first synopsis set out above:

 

 

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I noticed towards the end of Heresy 173, around pages 17-18, there was an interesting discussion about what we know regarding the Children of the Forest or Singers and if they (or some of them) may be controlling the walkers, and behind other parts of the rising winter.  In Arthur Machen's story "The Novel of the Black Seal" there is a statement regarding fairies that people in folk lore purposely used opposite descriptors for fairies characterizing them as nice, helpful, etc., because they were in reality so terrified of them.  If we apply the same type of characterization to the Children of the Forest, what "true" descriptions do we end up with? (This may have been discussed on Heresy before, but I did not see it).

 

On a second note, is there any mention or hint of the Children initiating the Old Gods' magic by planting or using weirwoods?  Do we know if the weirwoods preceded the Children or if the Children planted the trees in a dark Johnny Appleseed parallel to dark Narnia?  My brother has my copy of the World Book, so I can't reference that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I noticed towards the end of Heresy 173, around pages 17-18, there was an interesting discussion about what we know regarding the Children of the Forest or Singers and if they (or some of them) may be controlling the walkers, and behind other parts of the rising winter.  In Arthur Machen's story "The Novel of the Black Seal" there is a statement regarding fairies that people in folk lore purposely used opposite descriptors for fairies characterizing them as nice, helpful, etc., because they were in reality so terrified of them.  If we apply the same type of characterization to the Children of the Forest, what "true" descriptions do we end up with? (This may have been discussed on Heresy before, but I did not see it).

 

On a second note, is there any mention or hint of the Children initiating the Old Gods' magic by planting or using weirwoods?  Do we know if the weirwoods preceded the Children or if the Children planted the trees in a dark Johnny Appleseed parallel to dark Narnia?  My brother has my copy of the World Book, so I can't reference that. 

 

You raise a couple of interesting points and of course leaving Arthur Machen aside it is indeed true that in folklore the Faerie races are normally treated with a fair degree of wariness because while they can "help" men, [and Bran remembers that the children helped the last hero] they are very easily offended if not shown the proper degree of respect and gratitude and so far as Pacts and other bargains are concerned they are very exact in their observance and interpretation of the terms.

 

In a Westerosi context the breaking of the Pact is not something that would be overlooked or allowances made for circumstances.

 

As to the weirwoods I don't recall anything specific but lurking in the back of my mind is something about their being very slow growing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@VOICE OF THE FIRST MEN

Posted Today, 11:20 AM

VOICE: We agree. I was only pointing out that what we have not seen from the cotf is the sense of revenge, or vengeance, that BC likes to suggest.

:cheers: Agreed--we haven't seen it yet. But they we also haven't heard them talk about helping the humans out with winter or walkers.

VOICE: I was speaking more to your idea that we have not yet seen what is behind the Others. And, that if we have, we may have been lulled into a false sense of security regarding it. It might even feel like home.  :devil:

Or like happy fairy tree-huggers who just sing songs, skipping though the forest--nothing to worry about. . . .  ;)

VOICE: There are always gaps, of course, but the story of the Last Hero seems pretty detailed to me. 12 companions. Aid from cotf. The Others could not stand against him. Long Night ends.

Yes--that's clear. Now--how did they help and why? That's a gap.

VOICE: You're right to be skeptical. Even I am, and it's my theory. LOL

I think there must have been a very real, and very terrible, reason why the cotf were willing to give away most of the continent to save their trees.

That's a thought--if they want the land back for something else. Yes, it works with your "antibodies" theory. But if the "land" is also a faith--we've seen fanatics multiple times. If the Children believe it's "right"--to protect the trees, and the Singers, and the earth that they are dwindling into--that could be interesting.

VOICE: Sure. But, you must admit that we've seen nothing in the cave that conflicts with Luwin's account, Old Nan's account, Bran's father's whimsical tales of the cotf, nor the WB's version.

Once your eyes are looking for monsters in the dark (thanks to Mel lol), it's hard not to see them. But, in the text, the cave-dwellers - BR and the cotf - have done nothing at all to warrant that label. If anything, their behavior only supports the interp of the Citadel, wetnurses, and crannogmen alike.

Depends on what you mean by contradict. The stories say they commune with nature and sing songs of earth, and have greenseers--etc. But the stories don't say HOW they do all of this. Or why--just the general outlines. Just like they don't say how or why the Children helped the Last Hero.
 
I think we're seeing the "how" in that cave. At least of the "Singing." And the frozen Singers in the tree roots--doesn't look like the happy stories of "singing the songs of the earth." It looks like hell. The "how" looks like hell.
 
I fully agree that I could be coloring all this with my own imagination--but Martin has been building up our imagination. With Nan's tales, Meera's Knight of the Laughing Tree--all make the Children out to be shiny and helpful. They really may still be helpful. But I think what's in that cave is meant as a contrast to the stories--not shiny or pretty. No talk of "helpful." And Jojen awfully glum. Is it enough to condemn the Children? Absolutely not. Is it enough to make us asks questions going into the next book? Absolutely yes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I noticed towards the end of Heresy 173, around pages 17-18, there was an interesting discussion about what we know regarding the Children of the Forest or Singers and if they (or some of them) may be controlling the walkers, and behind other parts of the rising winter.  In Arthur Machen's story "The Novel of the Black Seal" there is a statement regarding fairies that people in folk lore purposely used opposite descriptors for fairies characterizing them as nice, helpful, etc., because they were in reality so terrified of them.  If we apply the same type of characterization to the Children of the Forest, what "true" descriptions do we end up with? (This may have been discussed on Heresy before, but I did not see it).

 

On a second note, is there any mention or hint of the Children initiating the Old Gods' magic by planting or using weirwoods?  Do we know if the weirwoods preceded the Children or if the Children planted the trees in a dark Johnny Appleseed parallel to dark Narnia?  My brother has my copy of the World Book, so I can't reference that. 

 

From what I have read of what would be considered Fae tales, there is always some unbelievable gift/invitation given from the side of the Fae. Then acceptance of them always seems to come with unmentioned terms (such as dying before you make it home (oh Jojen),) making it home after everyone you know is long gone etc.

 

Much like Sirens causing the ships to crash along the rocks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One other quick thing--Tucu brought this up on "The Others & Evil" thread over on General. Maybe he'll come back to Heresy and talk about it. If not: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/133255-the-others-evil-grrms-words/page-4

 

Don't know it that's come up on Heresy before--but the idea that humans make the monsters. That the Children taught the humans about the ravens and weirnet. That they use a human greenseer (at least the current ones do)--the idea that a weirnet polluted with human consciousness could create problems--has elements of antibodies, and of "humans make the monsters"--maybe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One other quick thing--Tucu brought this up on "The Others & Evil" thread over on General. Maybe he'll come back to Heresy and talk about it. If not: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/133255-the-others-evil-grrms-words/page-4

 

Don't know it that's come up on Heresy before--but the idea that humans make the monsters. That the Children taught the humans about the ravens and weirnet. That they use a human greenseer (at least the current ones do)--the idea that a weirnet polluted with human consciousness could create problems--has elements of antibodies, and of "humans make the monsters"--maybe.

Oh no are you saying that "men" are at the heart of darkness... feel like i've heard that somewhere.   On a side note any recommended reads to learn about "Faeries" 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh no are you saying that "men" are at the heart of darkness... feel like i've heard that somewhere.   On a side note any recommended reads to learn about "Faeries" 

 

There's a nice take on fairies in Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke, in the person of the gentleman with thistle-down (cornflower) hair, but there might be somebody else on Heresy who can provide more information about that . . . 

 

The Wizard Knight by Gene Wolfe, (broken up as the Knight in one book and the Wizard in the other) has a set of characters called the Aelf who are small creatures behaving more like the fairies of deep tradition rather than behaving like elves.

 

An interesting read is to go through the Arabian Nights looking for aspects of those tales that seem to parallel or have been the germ of European fairy tales.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I fully agree that I could be coloring all this with my own imagination--but Martin has been building up our imagination. With Nan's tales, Meera's Knight of the Laughing Tree--all make the Children out to be shiny and helpful. They really may still be helpful. But I think what's in that cave is meant as a contrast to the stories--not shiny or pretty. No talk of "helpful." And Jojen awfully glum. Is it enough to condemn the Children? Absolutely not. Is it enough to make us asks questions going into the next book? Absolutely yes.

 

Yeah, it's dark in the cave & there are bodes scattered all over the place from previous meals (Whatever falls into their sinkhole gets eaten, this is why the tales say that Gridal's Children are always hungry) as well as past greenseers... Darkness & bones, that is exactly what I would expect to find down there, does that mean that they are secretly behind the Others??? Well, no, it doesn't... If the children were behind the Others, there would be no need for the cave to have wards to keep out the dead...

 

The argument that skirmish between Hodor, Leaf & Coldhands against the Wights just outside the Cave's entrance was to trick Bran into thinking that he is trapped is too farfetched... If the Children really wanted for Bran to be trapped inside the Cave, then they would simply slit Hodor's throat. Bam, the Bran really would be trapped... (except for the underground river that's flowing South)...

 

Is the story more complex than we can imagine at this point? Yes... But does that mean that CotF are behind the Others? No...

 

Looking at the 1993 Synopsis: "Maester & Greenseer must work as one" [in order to defeat the Others]... this makes it pretty clear that the CotF are not behind the Others...

 

As for Jojen... Jojen is gloomy because he knows that he will die in that cave... He has seen his death in a Green Dream, he knows that his end is near & that it will not be pretty... Jojen's purpose was to get Bran to the cave... His task is complete///

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I fully agree that I could be coloring all this with my own imagination--but Martin has been building up our imagination. With Nan's tales, Meera's Knight of the Laughing Tree--all make the Children out to be shiny and helpful. They really may still be helpful. But I think what's in that cave is meant as a contrast to the stories--not shiny or pretty. No talk of "helpful." And Jojen awfully glum. Is it enough to condemn the Children? Absolutely not. Is it enough to make us asks questions going into the next book? Absolutely yes.

 

Yeah, it's dark in the cave & there are bodes scattered all over the place from previous meals (Whatever falls into their sinkhole gets eaten, this is why the tales say that Gridal's Children are always hungry) as well as past greenseers... Darkness & bones, that is exactly what I would expect to find down there, does that mean that they are secretly behind the Others??? Well, no, it doesn't... If the children were behind the Others, there would be no need for the cave to have wards to keep out the dead...

 

The argument that skirmish between Hodor, Leaf & Coldhands against the Wights just outside the Cave's entrance was to trick Bran into thinking that he is trapped is too farfetched... If the Children really wanted for Bran to be trapped inside the Cave, then they would simply slit Hodor's throat. Bam, the Bran really would be trapped... (except for the underground river that's flowing South)...

 

Is the story more complex than we can imagine at this point? Yes... But does that mean that CotF are behind the Others? No...

 

Looking at the 1993 Synopsis: "Maester & Greenseer must work as one" [in order to defeat the Others]... this makes it pretty clear that the CotF are not behind the Others...

 

As for Jojen... Jojen is gloomy because he knows that he will die in that cave... He has seen his death in a Green Dream, he knows that his end is near & that it will not be pretty... Jojen's purpose was to get Bran to the cave... His task is complete///

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One other quick thing--Tucu brought this up on "The Others & Evil" thread over on General. Maybe he'll come back to Heresy and talk about it. If not: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/133255-the-others-evil-grrms-words/page-4

 

Don't know it that's come up on Heresy before--but the idea that humans make the monsters. That the Children taught the humans about the ravens and weirnet. That they use a human greenseer (at least the current ones do)--the idea that a weirnet polluted with human consciousness could create problems--has elements of antibodies, and of "humans make the monsters"--maybe.

 

If this were the case & men had ruined the weirnet... Then why would they hook Bran up?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looking at the 1993 Synopsis: "Maester & Greenseer must work as one" [in order to defeat the Others]... this makes it pretty clear that the CotF are not behind the Others...

 

Not necessarily, as has been extensively discussed before the greenseer may be Bran himself. In the earlier part of the synopsis GRRM talks of how Bran "will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. We certainly see this in the books as he comes to "like it" in the dark. More likely then that when "the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands" the Greenseer is Bran coming out of that darkness in his own redemption arc, turning against the three-fingered tree-huggers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we're seeing the "how" in that cave. At least of the "Singing." And the frozen Singers in the tree roots--doesn't look like the happy stories of "singing the songs of the earth." It looks like hell. The "how" looks like hell.

 

Its also a very squalid hell and as such perhaps a corrective to the beautiful people image so often applied to Faerie.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Who are the Neverborn???

 

A type of antagonist that GRRM dreamed up for the ASOIAF Series, but ended up excluding their role & he donated these antagonists to Robert Jordan...

 

Emm.. White walkers most likely? They are the ones created by magic, i.e, not born in usual way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Emm.. White walkers most likely? They are the ones created by magic, i.e, not born in usual way.

 

Yuup. The term itself of course didn't make it through to the eventual book, but we can still see them in the white walkers. Technically Craster's sons were originally born in the usual way but they were created in their present form by magic rather than allowed to grow and develop naturally.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On a side note any recommended reads to learn about "Faeries" 

 

A bit of a how long ius a piece of string question and very dependent on how deep you want to go, but as with Summer I'd recommend Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell [the book, not the mummers version] as it gives a very accurate [in mythological terms] picture of Faerie and Faeries.

 

Above all it stresses the importance of bargains and Pacts and the niceness of interpretation of them. As I said above, the failure by men to adhere strictly to the terms of the Pact is not something that can be overlooked or forgiven, or allowance made for it being broken by "other" men.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...