addicted to snow Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 The Neverborn appear in Robert Jordan's Series, not GRRM's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 If this were the case & men had ruined the weirnet... Then why would they hook Bran up? If men expansion has pushed the Weirnet into the verge of extinction, who better than a human greenseer to lead the resistance. I quoted this in the other thread: "Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sings sad songs, where men would fight and kill" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 If men expansion has pushed the Weirnet into the verge of extinction, who better than a human greenseer to lead the resistance. I quoted this in the other thread: "Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sings sad songs, where men would fight and kill" good point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 If men expansion has pushed the Weirnet into the verge of extinction, who better than a human greenseer to lead the resistance. I quoted this in the other thread: "Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sings sad songs, where men would fight and kill" More likely the singers are fighting and Bran is being deceived once again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 More likely the singers are fighting and Bran is being deceived once again I think that the CoTF have given up after 12000 years. It is the humanized Weirnet that fights and kills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shagwell Snow Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Are we suggesting that the weirnet had no independent consciousness?That it is only carrying out the will of whoever or whatever is plugged into it and has no agenda of its own? I don't think I can buy it,sure I van believe a certain level of influence in isolation but they just seem too old to just be a tool, for want of a better word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Yeah, it's dark in the cave & there are bodes scattered all over the place from previous meals (Whatever falls into their sinkhole gets eaten, this is why the tales say that Gridal's Children are always hungry) as well as past greenseers... Darkness & bones, that is exactly what I would expect to find down there, does that mean that they are secretly behind the Others??? Well, no, it doesn't... If the children were behind the Others, there would be no need for the cave to have wards to keep out the dead... Agree that it makes sense for them to be in the cave--and even the bones. Maybe things they eat. Also seem to be ancestors--that's not so much of a worry, though it's a bit creepy that they seem to have human bones. But the Singers in the roots of the trees. Not to mention Bloodraven. When the Singers in the trees look dead, but follow with their eyes and one tries to speak--the image of Dany's meeting the warlocks seems like a pretty clear parallel. The warlocks can barely move, only whisper, but follow Dany with their eyes. The House of the Undying shows her visions--like Bran and Bloodraven. And they have illusions that they control--the "pretty" versions of themselves. Throw in drinking Shade of the Evening, the trees with weird bark and leaves, the fact that Dany's connection to her dragons helps get her out--all seems like the Children's cave parallels the House of the Undying--and the House was not a place of sweetness and light. The warlocks of Qarth don't seem to have the level of power necessary for a Long Night. So maybe the parallel won't play out. Maybe it will. But given that what little Marin has given us in the cave echoes the House--think in makes sense to at least be very wary of what the Children are doing in that cave. And why they want Bran. Its also a very squalid hell and as such perhaps a corrective to the beautiful people image so often applied to Faerie. Yup. Beautiful people in Dany's House were pure illusion. Does that mean the same for the cave? Not sure--but the people in the roots--looks like a version of hell to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 I think that the CoTF have given up after 12000 years. It is the humanized Weirnet that fights and kills. Only 6,000 years since the Long Night according to the World Book. The singers are long-lived and can be patient Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Oh no are you saying that "men" are at the heart of darkness... feel like i've heard that somewhere. HA! Fair point. On a side note any recommended reads to learn about "Faeries" I've picked up fairy lore sideways--studying literature that talks about it and thus picking up info as needed. Or studying collections of folktales--but that would be a long way around just to get an overview. Maybe PM Wolfmaid? She knows far more about mythology than I do. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Are we suggesting that the weirnet had no independent consciousness?That it is only carrying out the will of whoever or whatever is plugged into it and has no agenda of its own? I don't think I can buy it,sure I van believe a certain level of influence in isolation but they just seem too old to just be a tool, for want of a better word No, a hivemind composed of thousands of individual consciousnesses absorbed over millennia. It changed significantly since human started joining after the Pact. Like in Hyperion Cantos, there are factions inside the collective. Only 6,000 years since the Long Night according to the World Book. The singers are long-lived and can be patient 12000 years since the First Men arrived and the war started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 12000 years since the First Men arrived and the war started. And hasn't ended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 And hasn't ended Yes, just pauses after major events: sinking of the Arm of Dorne, the semi successful sinking of the Neck, the Pact and the Long Night. Pesky humans! They keep coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 That's the ones... :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 The Neverborn appear in Robert Jordan's Series, not GRRM's... That's rather the point. The synopsis was written as a sales pitch so he used the term to explain what he had in mind before fleshing them out into what we actually get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I still find the sad, broken people in the cave of skulls unleashing the present day apocalypse to be...wholly unconvincing. It's a good fit for the original Long Night, but it's important to keep in mind that if we're going to assume that the ability to create soldiers of ice is possible within the magic of the CotF, then it's also possible for the FM that subsequently acquired the magic of the CotF. Which means it could be just about anybody up there raising soldiers of ice, for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with waging war on humanity. Again, I have a serious issue with the timing. The idea that magic waxes and wanes of it's own accord, that it has "seasons," does not fit with what we've seen of eastern magic, whose death and rebirth can be linked to specific points in time, specific events. Fire had a long, long "waxing" with Valyria, and then a comparably short waning before its sudden return with Dany's pyre. Unless Leaf and co. have as of yet unrevealed magic of their own, their apocalypse seems dependent on Bloodraven and Bran. With Bran, this is just barely possible--he's young and impressionable, and recent events with his family would give him good reason to want to unleash the Others on Westeros. What fits a great deal less is that BR could be similarly tricked into betraying humanity. Why would BR care about the loss of lands, of Pact betrayals, of the great decline of the CotF? And do "the Others" really solve that in the long term? I agree with what was said up thread-- Maester and Greenseer joining hands does not fit a scenario where it's the CotF that must be stopped. Furthermore, the whole "Long Night > Last Hero begs for mercy > Pact" scenario fails to account for certain other legends that don't fit that picture, particularly the LH slaying Others with "dragonsteel," or the very notion of a Battle for the Dawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 I still find the sad, broken people in the cave of skulls unleashing the present day apocalypse to be...wholly unconvincing. The problem I have here is in interpreting them as sad and broken. They are not human and I think it unwise to interpret what we see in human terms, and unwise to believe everything we're told in that squalid patch of Hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 What fits a great deal less is that BR could be similarly tricked into betraying humanity. Why would BR care about the loss of lands, of Pact betrayals, of the great decline of the CotF? And do "the Others" really solve that in the long term? BR would gladly join for power and eternal life. We was old (77) and we have to remember he was a Blackwood on his mother side. This family has an old connection with the weirwoods. Furthermore, the whole "Long Night > Last Hero begs for mercy > Pact" scenario fails to account for certain other legends that don't fit that picture, particularly the LH slaying Others with "dragonsteel," or the very notion of a Battle for the Dawn. I mentioned this in the previous Heresy thread: those other legends could just be stories of warriors from all over Planetos that were still fighting at sunrise. The legends are different enough that is hard to trace them to a single hero with an all powerful sword that slaughtered the armies of the dead and the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shagwell Snow Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Those who sing the song of the earth? Song of the earth seems like the seasons to me. Those who bring the seasons? Plus I've always thought the fact that crows and ravens feed on human flesh yet also act as a host to singers, and an avatar of Bloodraven, was not a mere coincidence and very ominous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 We shouldn't, by default, believe everything we're told by Leaf, yet we also shouldn't treat deception as the most likely option either. We simply don't know. There are other things, some symbolic, that bother me about this theory as well. Why would Leaf admonish Bran against calling back the dead, if he's to lead an army of the slain on her behalf? Why is the Cave of Skulls warded against what is supposedly it's own army? Why does Ghost, who "belongs to the Old Gods," get so upset when Othor is roaming freely in Castle Black, if Othor himself is animated by the magic of the Old Gods? Why does Summer dislike the "cold smell" of Coldhands? The wights, moreso than the white walkers, seem "incompatible" with the world view of the CotF. There's a sort of acceptance in the natural cycle of things in Leaf's words, her acknowledgement that the CotF's low fertility is a natural balance... yet there's nothing natural or balanced about the wights. They're not a representation of the natural cycle of things, the changing of seasons, they're a disruption-- frozen in a deathless state, prevented from returning to the soil and the roots to become fertilized earth. If anything, they're the icy, winter-y version of Benerro's "summer without end." I don't consider any of these things damning, yet I'm not going to ignore them or shrug them off either. Not to seem like I'm just being purely negative and critical--there are many, many things that make CotF good suspects for LN 1.0 and 2.0, and I'd still put them in my Top 3 most likely candidates, but there are (IMHO) flaws there as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Edit: Double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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