Tucu Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 We shouldn't, by default, believe everything we're told by Leaf, yet we also shouldn't treat deception as the most likely option either. We simply don't know. There are other things, some symbolic, that bother me about this theory as well. Why would Leaf admonish Bran against calling back the dead, if he's to lead an army of the slain on her behalf? Why is the Cave of Skulls warded against what is supposedly it's own army? Why does Ghost, who "belongs to the Old Gods," get so upset when Othor is roaming freely in Castle Black, if Othor himself is animated by the magic of the Old Gods? Why does Summer dislike the "cold smell" of Coldhands? The wights, moreso than the white walkers, seem "incompatible" with the world view of the CotF. There's a sort of acceptance in the natural cycle of things in Leaf's words, her acknowledgement that the CotF's low fertility is a natural balance... yet there's nothing natural or balanced about the wights. They're not a representation of the natural cycle of things, the changing of seasons, they're a disruption-- frozen in a deathless state, prevented from returning to the soil and the roots to become fertilized earth. If anything, they're the icy, winter-y version of Benerro's "summer without end." I don't consider any of these things damning, yet I'm not going to ignore them or shrug them off either. Not to seem like I'm just being purely negative and critical--there are many, many things that make CotF good suspects for LN 1.0 and 2.0, and I'd still put them in my Top 3 most likely candidates, but there are (IMHO) flaws there as well. The wards outside the cave could just be a signpost: "Wights not allowed beyond this point" :-) But I agree that there are a lot of connections that are hard to fully reconcile: -The Starks' link to the weirwoods: Old gods worshipers, being wargs and greenseers, human sacrifice -The Starks' connection to ice and darkness: Kings of Winter, the Night's King, a Brandon building the Wall -The weirdwoods' link to life and earth -CoTF using obsidian (fire magic) weapons. -The Others hating all life (might be just a misunderstanding) And more that I can't remember just now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Matthew you bring up some good points and I know our thinking is similar in some respects. I think there is another grove somewhere and they are working with BR's posse.Consider the very person of CHs who led Bran and Co to BR's cave. Consider Leaf's warning to Bran which tells me Bran has the power to do it.But that's not his job. Consider how long Bran has been in the cave and not a word about defeating wws and wights. They know what's going on and are purposely doing nothing. Not that they are responsible, but that they know who is.If every song has its balance I put my head on a block that BR and his trees that are summer have a winter counterpart. This stinks of some kind of alliance.And if we look at a possible ending.Who will inherit the earth? The displaced which includes sympathetic humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 No, a hivemind composed of thousands of individual consciousnesses absorbed over millennia. It changed significantly since human started joining after the Pact. Like in Hyperion Cantos, there are factions inside the collective. This makes me think of Nan's tales again--the "collective consciousness" of collected knowledge. Only question is what people do with the stories and how they react to them--but the Stark kids are all connected by these tales (plus a lot of other things). Collective knowledge. Stark-think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 We shouldn't, by default, believe everything we're told by Leaf, yet we also shouldn't treat deception as the most likely option either. We simply don't know. (snip) I don't consider any of these things damning, yet I'm not going to ignore them or shrug them off either. Not to seem like I'm just being purely negative and critical--there are many, many things that make CotF good suspects for LN 1.0 and 2.0, and I'd still put them in my Top 3 most likely candidates, but there are (IMHO) flaws there as well. Completely agree with the bolded. And most of the rest of your entire post. We do not have enough info to know for sure what the Children are up to. Stories tell us to trust them. Things in cave make me suspicious. Where is the answer? We need the next books. Don't have enough info to fill in the gaps you delineated yet, one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 I think its the very ambiguity which warns us to be wary because nothing is quite as it seems. Qhorin takes Jon because the Old Gods were those of the First Men and the Starks. Why is that connection significant when the only recorded interaction is that Stark of Winterfell slaying the Warg King and his inhuman allies, the children and the greenseers. Ghost belongs to the Old Gods and gets unhappy about the presence of Othor, yet baulks at the warding of the Fist. Might that be explained simply by Ghost's prime directive to protect Jon from whatever the threat? On balance I'm still very much inclined to treat all the otherlanders as one and the lack of a clear picture is itself suspicious, Faerie is conspicuously not positioning itself as mankind's allies and saviour. Mankind broke the Pact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 No, a hivemind composed of thousands of individual consciousnesses absorbed over millennia. It changed significantly since human started joining after the Pact. Like in Hyperion Cantos, there are factions inside the collective. Just a random aside, but it's also interesting that, in Hyperion, there's a religious faction of humans (the Templar) who worship trees, occasionally use "weirwood" as a building material, and are being unknowingly manipulated by the TechnoCore collective consciousness into betraying humanity--specifically, being manipulated by future probabilities being sent to them in the guise of prophecies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I think its the very ambiguity which warns us to be wary because nothing is quite as it seems. Qhorin takes Jon because the Old Gods were those of the First Men and the Starks. Why is that connection significant when the only recorded interaction is that Stark of Winterfell slaying the Warg King and his inhuman allies, the children and the greenseers. Ghost belongs to the Old Gods and gets unhappy about the presence of Othor, yet baulks at the warding of the Fist. Might that be explained simply by Ghost's prime directive to protect Jon from whatever the threat? On balance I'm still very much inclined to treat all the otherlanders as one and the lack of a clear picture is itself suspicious, Faerie is conspicuously not positioning itself as mankind's allies and saviour. Mankind broke the Pact. Does fairyland ever come off as universally helpful to humans? Maybe in a few children's stories. Or Arthurian legends of knights sleeping with fairies--though those rarely end well. And if Leaf has lured Bran into the cave for "romance"--will not be helping her case. Just think the stories always are: fairies are beautiful and powerful. Don't mess with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Just a random aside, but it's also interesting that, in Hyperion, there's a religious faction of humans (the Templar) who worship trees, occasionally use "weirwood" as a building material, and are being unknowingly manipulated by the TechnoCore collective consciousness into betraying humanity--specifically, being manipulated by future probabilities being sent to them in the guise of prophecies. I would also like to mention the Bikura: [spoiler]a race of humans transformed by the Cruciform parasite to be used as biological computers by the TechnoCore.[/spoiler] They are as creepy as the CoTF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Does fairyland ever come off as universally helpful to humans? Maybe in a few children's stories. Or Arthurian legends of knights sleeping with fairies--though those rarely end well. And if Leaf has lured Bran into the cave for "romance"--will not be helping her case. Just think the stories always are: fairies are beautiful and powerful. Don't mess with them. Well the fae dont typically help people per se.There's a reason to be weary of them.They help you alright...they help you get in a situation where you have no choice to accept their help and that help usually comes with a price that's very ambiguous. Or you are convinced you made a deal your sure you didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 Does fairyland ever come off as universally helpful to humans? Maybe in a few children's stories. Or Arthurian legends of knights sleeping with fairies--though those rarely end well. And if Leaf has lured Bran into the cave for "romance"--will not be helping her case. Just think the stories always are: fairies are beautiful and powerful. Don't mess with them. Trafficking with Faeries always ends in tears, and to add to what Wolfmaid says I can't stress to strongly the importance of bargains and how rigidly they are observed in Faerie - and the fact that they invariably require to be treated with what they regard as a proper respect. In both, Man in dealing with the children/singers has fallen far short of what a Faerie would consider his or her due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion06 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 My only (admittedly nitpicky) gripe with the COTF being behind the current Others is that I feel they're too underdeveloped as a faction. Even Bloodraven is fairly flat as a character if one hasn't read the D&E novellas. Not that I don't feel Martin couldn't pull it off. He still has two gigantic books to go. I think I'd just rather that the hand behind the Others belong to someone we've gotten to know fairly well so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 True and the same may be said with bells on if we look for someone else entirely, not yet introduced to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I would consider even the idea of the Pact being "broken" to be far from confirmed or clear. We have some solid implications that the relationship between the Crannogment and the CotF is better than the one between the CotF and humanity as a whole (and, of course, humanity as a whole couldn't be reasonably expected to have agreed to the Pact in the first place). Not only is there Jojen's own statements that they've kept more lore and history, there's also the fact that Howland Reed was allowed onto the Isle of Faces, and even able to live there for a winter, even though we have legends of others being forbidden from approaching the Isle of Faces. Is House Reed to be part of some sort of collective punishment or cleansing of Westeros, just because they happen to be the same species as the Andals? And, to beat a dead horse, why wait until 6,000 - 8,000 years to mete out this punishment? Why wait until the only way to kick off your revenge is to rely on human greenseers, instead of your own? We know the seasons have been messed up for a long time, so there's been plenty of chaos in the realms of men, and plenty of long winters to capitalize upon. Why now? I think I'd just rather that the hand behind the Others belong to someone we've gotten to know fairly well so far. I'll admit up front that this is just pure gut feeling, but I suspect that some of the things we don't yet know about Robert's Rebellion - and not just the stuff that pertains to a certain character's parentage - is going to end up somehow being important to what's going on north of the Wall. There are many things we don't know about Howland Reed, about the motives of the Daynes, about Rickard and Arryn's conspiracy. I just can't shake the feeling that, the fact that GRRM's original intended title for A Dream of Spring was "A Time for Wolves" may indicate that the Others, and their awakening, was to be part of House Stark's restoration and revenge, rather than the broader destruction of humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I would consider even the idea of the Pact being "broken" to be far from confirmed or clear. We have some solid implications that the relationship between the Crannogment and the CotF is better than the one between the CotF and humanity as a whole (and, of course, humanity as a whole couldn't be reasonably expected to have agreed to the Pact in the first place). The sequence of uses of the Hammer seems to be: breaking the Arm of Dorne->Pact setting borders->Flooding of the Neck After that we have the Long Night->building of the Wall Pacts were broken and humans continue to expand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 My only (admittedly nitpicky) gripe with the COTF being behind the current Others is that I feel they're too underdeveloped as a faction. Even Bloodraven is fairly flat as a character if one hasn't read the D&E novellas. Not that I don't feel Martin couldn't pull it off. He still has two gigantic books to go. I think I'd just rather that the hand behind the Others belong to someone we've gotten to know fairly well so far. This is where I disagree I think they have been developed. Its just that Westeros has a skewed view of them.If we look at the powers down to the gritty of what"s being displayed its the Greenseers/COTF no matter who you think is in charge its their magic. A kick ass Skinchanger. Its not something new its basically what BR and Little finger said. 1. Love the darkness, let it be your cloak and mothers milk. 2.Never let your enimies know who you are. We were introduced to the Greenseers in book one, their powers. Above all we know they are the ones who can enthrall anything that swims, flies and walks as weapons.The only difference is we are seeing it with the perfect versions of the above. ...they dead and have no will. These buggers have the perfect cover nobody thinks they exist. Hell even the COTF get an honorable mention. Then all of a sudden we find out that what Westeros forget has been there along and it just bagged a replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion06 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I'll admit up front that this is just pure gut feeling, but I suspect that some of the things we don't yet know about Robert's Rebellion - and not just the stuff that pertains to a certain character's parentage - is going to end up somehow being important to what's going on north of the Wall. There are many things we don't know about Howland Reed, about the motives of the Daynes, about Rickard and Arryn's conspiracy. I just can't shake the feeling that, the fact that GRRM's original intended title for A Dream of Spring was "A Time for Wolves" may indicate that the Others, and their awakening, was to be part of House Stark's restoration and revenge, rather than the broader destruction of humanity. I've had similar thoughts as well, especially looking at the series from a somewhat meta point of view. With only 2 books left to go and the civil war on the verge of restarting, I suspect the Others are going to be intrinsically tied to the game, rather than having the game abandoned hastily so everyone can focus on the zombie apocalypse. Also, if there actually is a zombie apocalypse, then the Starks and the North (our first real protagonists) are logically doomed unless the Others are anticlimactically stopped at the Wall itself. Sure doesn't sound like a time for wolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 My only (admittedly nitpicky) gripe with the COTF being behind the current Others is that I feel they're too underdeveloped as a faction. Even Bloodraven is fairly flat as a character if one hasn't read the D&E novellas. Not that I don't feel Martin couldn't pull it off. He still has two gigantic books to go. I think I'd just rather that the hand behind the Others belong to someone we've gotten to know fairly well so far. Yes, the way good mysteries usually work, the reader is usually introduced to the villain early in the story... In GRRM's story, we were introduced to who is behind the Others when Ned & Roberto went down into the Crypts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Trafficking with Faeries always ends in tears, and to add to what Wolfmaid says I can't stress to strongly the importance of bargains and how rigidly they are observed in Faerie - and the fact that they invariably require to be treated with what they regard as a proper respect. In both, Man in dealing with the children/singers has fallen far short of what a Faerie would consider his or her due. It will be interesting to learn whether or not GRRM adopts this trope... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Dragons Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I've liked the fairie idea for awhile, but I started having doubts because i don't think the Others are repelled by iron anymore. We have Royce parying with the Other in the Prologue with steel, which is iron and carbon, but doesn't do much to scare the Other. If only Stannis Africannus was here, I'm pretty sure I was just having this conversation with him- do you remember Yield. and Weasel Pie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewolfStark Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 This stinks of some kind of alliance.And if we look at a possible ending.Who will inherit the earth? The displaced which includes sympathetic humans. Easy! The Meek Shall Inherit! Seriously though, the more I think on the themes present in that section of the musical "Little Shop of Horrors" and Bran's situation, there's an unintentional connection and possible future direction of the story, I'm seeing:Man gains power through connection with a plant with a taste for bloodMan realizes this and at first is revolted and vows to disconnect himself from it all Man counterpoints himself into believing that the woman whom he loves won't love him if he doesn't have all that power Woman dies horribly and tragically Man takes out the plant, but the invasion continues unabated Thoughts? Huh, who would've thought that a fun little post I'd planned actually prompt some good thematic discussion! :) And all from a campy little musical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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