Fantasy with discussion of gender roles

[C.T. Phipps]

That's a very good comparison.

[The Marquis de Leech]

The age-old problem with Rothfuss is,yes, he might be expecting us to call bullshit on Kvothe's sexual exploits and his unhealthy view of women. Problem is that it's all the reader has to go on for many hundreds of pages. We still have to read about our protagonist being the Best At Everything, we still have to suffer through the Adem and Felurian. Saying "oh, it didn't really happen like that" doesn't change what we actually have to read.

[C.T. Phipps]

The age-old problem with Rothfuss is,yes, he might be expecting us to call bullshit on Kvothe's sexual exploits and his unhealthy view of women. Problem is that it's all the reader has to go on for many hundreds of pages. We still have to read about our protagonist being the Best At Everything, we still have to suffer through the Adem and Felurian. Saying "oh, it didn't really happen like that" doesn't change what we actually have to read.

 

True, on the other hand, we all know everything goes completely to **** for Kvothe, the world goes to ****, Bast is there to comment that, yes, Kvothe is padding details like Denna's beauty, and we know even if we only see it from the massive hints dropped that Kvothe is an arrogant bastard who frames everything in terms of how awesome he is.

 

My inclination is "the truth" is that Kvothe isn't lying but he's adding details here and there subconsciously which make him look good.

 

Which is how actual memory tends to work.

[fionwe1987]

Representation is one thing, but it is not the end all and be all of feminism. 

This is totally correct, but I don't think C.T. Phipp's point is that WoT, Hunger Games or any number of other books are worthy of discussion with respect to feminism just because some of the characters happen to be female. That, like you said, makes any number of crappy romance novels feminist too.

 

But while WoT, say falls far short of being a feminist work, its feminist aspect isn't just that it has many female characters, but that they have oodles of agency, that there are many female-female relationships of different flavors (though this being Jordan, it isn't like the characterization of these is particularly deep or anything), that just about the only character who can be defined as "air-headed love interest who serves little purpose" is male.

 

WoT is a deeply sexist work. It also has many storylines and elements that are not sexist at all. Chiefly, this is because Jordan never fully committed to his setting of a world where women dominate politically and in many ways, in all aspects of life. 

 

As for the main question: I think fantasy, especially epic fantasy, still struggles with portrayal of female characters. That GRRM still stands out with the depth of his female characters is a crying shame. Maybe I haven't read all there is to read, but I've been very disillusioned in this regard.

 

A good example of what I'd like to see is more stories like the Legend of Korra, which is a Nickelodeon animated show. Korra is a muscular, dark skinned [spoiler]bisexual[/spoiler] woman. In world, none of those things are exceptional. But by writing a world that has no patriarchy, and committing to it, and then portraying a wide range of female characters (of all ages too), the show has achieved what I've really yet to see in any fantasy novel. I wish more authors would take notes while watching that show...

[fionwe1987]

The problem I have with Rothfuss is that his female characters tend to not be very three dimensional. The only three women we meet in the context of the university are all incredibly one-note.

 

And then, it also suffers from a problem almost all other fantasy does as well: why, in this fictional world, is the status of women the way it is? There are complex reasons for this in reality, but when fantasy fictions just present this sort of gender dynamic with no explanation, they perpetuate the idea that there's something natural about it. That all societies will end up there, so the causes (even to touch on briefly) are unimportant. This is also my problem with aSoIaF.

[C.T. Phipps]

This is totally correct, but I don't think C.T. Phipp's point is that WoT, Hunger Games or any number of other books are worthy of discussion with respect to feminism just because some of the characters happen to be female. That, like you said, makes any number of crappy romance novels feminist too.

 

But while WoT, say falls far short of being a feminist work, its feminist aspect isn't just that it has many female characters, but that they have oodles of agency, that there are many female-female relationships of different flavors (though this being Jordan, it isn't like the characterization of these is particularly deep or anything), that just about the only character who can be defined as "air-headed love interest who serves little purpose" is male.

 

Albeit, Elayne does seem to think she's in a Disney movie half the time.

 

But yes, that's pretty much what I'm going for in my statement.

Really, I think what I'm also trying to point out is feminist literature, especially in fantasy, works in transitional stages. Robert Jordan has a lot of sexist and patriarchal elements in his books but also a lot of feminist and progressive elements. Declaring it uniformly sexist without really stopping to look at the finer details or talking about individual arcs misses a lot of value, I think.
 

    A good example of what I'd like to see is more stories like the Legend of Korra, which is a Nickelodeon animated show. Korra is a muscular, dark skinned [spoiler]bisexual[/spoiler] woman. In world, none of those things are exceptional. But by writing a world that has no patriarchy, and committing to it, and then portraying a wide range of female characters (of all ages too), the show has achieved what I've really yet to see in any fantasy novel. I wish more authors would take notes while watching that show...

 

 

Korra is not an exceptional female for being a dark-skinned muscular woman of (is that really a spoiler?) qualities but she's exceptionally exceptional outside of it--and that has made a big statement to the world.

[Kalbear]

In world, none of those things are exceptional. But by writing a world that has no patriarchy, and committing to it, and then portraying a wide range of female characters (of all ages too), the show has achieved what I've really yet to see in any fantasy novel. I wish more authors would take notes while watching that show...

So much this.

 

Korra is a feminist masterpiece and really, the Avatarverse is too. (the deadly ladies are incredible, for instance) It starts with  the basic statement of: if power comes from your ability to bend, and bending has nothing to do with how physically strong you are, why wouldn't women be in positions of everything? And it takes that everywhere. We find women in the highest echelons of power, in military roles, in political roles, in business roles. We find women with big character flaws, women who choose to do good, choose to do evil, and choose to seek power. We have flawed heroes. villains, and people at all walks of life. Korra is allowed to be wrong. The show breezes through the Bechdel test with ease, because there are simply so many good female characters in the show. 

 

It isn't perfect; too often the really truly bad bad guys are men, and one-note men with very little sympathetic value, and there is a bit too much of focus on romances. But it's really, really good. 

[fionwe1987]

So much this.
It isn't perfect; too often the really truly bad bad guys are men, and one-note men with very little sympathetic value, and there is a bit too much of focus on romances. But it's really, really good. 

Definitely not perfect, but I think it's a testament to the creators that the love triangle of doom ended so well. I mean, we end the series with Mako basically stating right out that he'll follow his ex into battle anytime. Within the world, that has no feminist trappings, but what an amazing example for all the kids watching.

[Andrew Gilfellon]

Korra was good, but the ending between her and Asami just seemed tagged on for the fans who shipped that relationship. They had no real interaction that would suggest any kind of attraction toward each other. To me it seemed more like a blossoming friendship rather than romance.

 

It was a shame the series was only 12 episodes long each season.

 

And Korra is one of the best series of all time, even if she was always saved by someone else or outside interference.

 

To be honest I was quite surprised that they didn't confront the issue that she was the worst Avatar in recent memory because that seemed to be where they were going.

[fionwe1987]

Korra was good, but the ending between her and Asami just seemed tagged on for the fans who shipped that relationship. They had no real interaction that would suggest any kind of attraction toward each other. To me it seemed more like a blossoming friendship rather than romance.

Is this still a thing? Friendships cannot become romances, if the two friends are female?
 

It was a shame the series was only 12 episodes long each season.

Yup. I do wish they had more time to explore things.
 

And Korra is one of the best series of all time, even if she was always saved by someone else or outside interference.

Only true of the first season, so far as I know.
 

To be honest I was quite surprised that they didn't confront the issue that she was the worst Avatar in recent memory because that seemed to be where they were going.

If anything, the opposite is true. She's done more, and changed the world more, with considerably less resources at her disposal, than most Avatars we know of.

[Andrew Gilfellon]

Of course friendships can become romances. It doesn't matter if they're female on female or female on male, but there has to be actual interaction between the two for it to happen.

 

There was no indication of any feelings they had for each other until that scene. They weren't even friends really, outside a few letters written to each other at the start of the season.

[lokisnow]

Mirror empire and natural history of dragons are two amazing and very different works with strong females and discussions of those roles. The former is a sexy propulsive action piece with anime flavorings the latter one of the most meticulously researched and beautifully written pieces of fantasy next to Jonathan strange and Mr norell.

[C.T. Phipps]

I find the Honor Harrington and Ring of Fire series to be like Jordan in they mean well but have flaws. They also achieve some pretty good bits as well.

[HexMachina]

Robin Hobb deals with gender issues a lot. Most obviously in the Liveship books, but also in the Farseer & Tawny man books (although that's a bit more hidden, and pertains mainly to one particular character).

Yeah, Liveships is pretty good for that. It deals with women's roles in a variety of situations and backgrounds. Good call. Rain Wilds had some potential with [spoiler]The Duke of Chalced's daughter [/spoiler] but sadly that plot line was a bit jumbled and rushed. Though Alise is quite interesting on the relationship dynamic front.

[fionwe1987]

Of course friendships can become romances. It doesn't matter if they're female on female or female on male, but there has to be actual interaction between the two for it to happen.

There are two whole seasons of that for Korra and Asami.
 

There was no indication of any feelings they had for each other until that scene. They weren't even friends really, outside a few letters written to each other at the start of the season.

There were indication, apart from the letters, but even if you missed them, why should there be indications? If you accept they had become increasingly close friends, why is it hard to accept that at that moment, tired from combat, excited for a new adventure during their vacation together, they first realized they felt more for each other than friendship? No one has said they were in a relationship during the series. The writers were clear that was the moment they openly acknowledged their attraction to each other.

[EruditeFool]

There are two whole seasons of that for Korra and Asami.
 
There were indication, apart from the letters, but even if you missed them, why should there be indications? If you accept they had become increasingly close friends, why is it hard to accept that at that moment, tired from combat, excited for a new adventure during their vacation together, they first realized they felt more for each other than friendship? No one has said they were in a relationship during the series. The writers were clear that was the moment they openly acknowledged their attraction to each other.

 

I think the problem was season 4 being constrained in both budget and time.  That entire season needed to be at least 1 1/2 times the length to develop things better.  Instead we got a good story jammed into too short a running time.  Everything was there, but not developed enough or fleshed out.

 

Honestly, Season 3 in my opinion was the best one. Season 1 was good until the last 30 seconds.  Season 2 had good ideas and good things but was hurt by cliched love stories and a one-note villain who could have been fascinating if they had made him sympathetic.  Season 3 was the only one that both progressed the story without constraint and had room to breathe (it also lacked some of the early growing pains of Season 1 and had a legitimate threat of a villain).

[Mars447]

 
Well, the female character I think of most is Devi rather than Felurian. Snarky fun money-lender who scares the hell out of Kvothe because he really can't believe she's dealing straight with him.
 
Hell, I'd love to read a Vlad Taltos-esque series about her.
 
Lady Meluan Lackless who, admittedly, is just there to be racist against Not-Romani and probably be Kvothe's aunt.
 
I also like the UNPRECEDENTED IN FANTASY event where Kvothe was uninterested in Fela's crush and she moved on.
 
I really HOPE Kvothe's relationship with Auri isn't meant to be sexual.
 
As for the Ademi? They're an odd-odd digression for Kvothe's story, though I suppose I don't necessarily disagree with a free love culture of ninjas so I'm more forgiving than I should be.
 
:)

Devi still wants to bone Kvothe, for whatever reason. She's a wealthy, good looking woman and she wants to touch a 15 year old virgin's Wizard Staff, for whatever reason. (Well, we know the reason. It's that Kvothe is Patrick Rothfuss' self insert and he couldn't stand it if any one of the invariably attractive young women that he writes didn't want to touch his stand-in's dick.)

Same with Fela. Of course she moves on by developing a crush on one of Kvothe's buddies, so that's not much of an improvement.

Things would be really fucked up if Auri wanted to bone Kvothe. Thankfully Rothfuss writes like an entitled Nice Guy, not like Piers Anthony.

[jet199]

Not sure if this is relevant.

 

One of my big dislikes in Kingkiller is the fact that violence against women is used to make the make the hero look good. I didn't mind it too much, I just considered it a bit juvenile, until 

[spoiler]Devi randomly comes out with "“He beats his whores,” about Ambrose and that phrase adds nothing except making Kvothe look good and giving the author an excuse to have Devi on Kvothe's side when she shouldn't be there.[/spoiler]I literally screamed at my ereader at that point, luckily I was alone. But it occurs all through the books, Kvothe does some terrible things but if someone says the person he has decided to hate beats or rapes women that makes Kvothe good. There is one obvious example where this trope is basically the whole plot for a fair few chapters, and Rothfuss actually released it independently as a short story too so I can't imagine it will fall into the "this will be revealed to be nonsense at the end" category of problems with the series. There are so many women getting abused to make Kvothe look good he must be the main cause of male on female violence in the Four Corners.

[Darth Richard II]

If the third book comes out and it turns out kvothe is actually a reliable narrator I'm going to laugh my balls off.

[MerenthaClone]

If the third book comes out and it turns out kvothe is actually a reliable narrator I'm going to laugh my balls off.

Here's the part that bothers me about that.  First book, we got a cool story about how Kvothe was Bloodless and how he burned down Trebon, both of which grew in the telling.  Then, second book, how it actually goes down with Felurian is...well, exactly what the legends say.  All of the bits about how the legends were exaggerated just goes right out the window so Kvothe can get on with the fairy goddess sexing.