Illogical events in both show and books.

[lancerman]

It still doesn't hold water. Arya is 10 not 3. She knows who her father's banners are. She knows the Bolton's and Starks have been allies for hundreds of years. She knows Roose is fighting her brothers war. She just saw Roose take a castle from her brother's enemies. For as smart as Arya's been portrayed before and since that it is unprecedentedly illogical for her not to tell him who she is. It's a blatant cop out so people don't have to acknowledge it as a flaw of the books. The only reason it gets a pass is because in the long run it helped her. If right when Roose took the castle she told him, she would have been in Riverrun by the start of ASOS. I don't need this she had a bad feeling BS. 99% of what she knew and saw told her this was someone who worked for her brother. She elected to kill a guy and take a group of people that she was just captured with out into a warzone to find a place she never had been to before against all logic because Roose doesn't come off as a nice guy. Sorry it's patently illogical. Especially for Arya. It's given a pass because the plot demanded it and nothing more.

Actually Barristan's mission is far worse because he was one man raiding the most valuable prisoner of highly guarded castle on the enemies own turf when everything about it said that he should fail. The 20 good men were 20 guys spending god knows how much time (and with the help of however many sellwsords) sneaking into an enemy camp in their own region in the middle of winter, lighting a few fires, and bolting before people realized what was going on. Ramsay needed every man to light two fires (if that) and leave. Barristan needed to sneak in, bypass all the guards, make it Aery's tower, break Aery's out, then get out of the castle with this old crazy prisoner while everyone was going after him. It's the difference between sneaking into a place, trashing it and leaving, and breaking in, finding the most heavily protected valuable item and lugging it out while the alarms are sounding.

D&D showed 12 tents (exactly 12) light on fire roughly in a row (it wasn't all at once, and we saw a horse run by with his harness caught on fire.

[Red Typer of Dorne]

First thing's first. The Arya in Harrenhal thing. Arya is a 10 year old child, who changed ''ownership'' (so to speak) from multiple parties in a short amount of time. She has learnt not to trust anyone. She isn't just scared of Bolton. She doesn't trust him. There are also two more characters, Jaime and Theon, who provide some insight of Roose. Both were very confident and arrogant  before the war. Theon thinks he was mad to jape with him at Robb's coucils. ''One look at him tells you he has more cruelty in his toe then all the Freys combined''. Jaime trashtalks him when he is brought before him. And Roose stays silent, and Jaime thinks his silence is threatening. Jaime, of all people. Arya trusted her instinct, and it proved right. Not only that, she actually contemplated to reveal herself to either Robett Glover or Helman Tallhart. But they were sent away by Roose before she could do so. Arya did nothing wrong, ilogical or out of character.

 

Then the 20 men against Barristans rescue. It's a completely idiotic comparison. First, it is heavily implied everyone expected Barristan to fail his quest. Tywin already decided Aerys is a dead man (he also wanted him dead). This rescue was just a facade he put on. As if saying ''I did everything I could''. Barristan's success is actually a huge surprise to everyone. Then the actual mission. A one man stealth mission is entirely different from 20 men. It is much harder to spot one man. He was probably extremely lucky. And he only needed to kill a couple of men before they could sound the alarm.

 

And  we don't get all the specifics, unlike in the show. Maybe there were some fortunate events we don't know about? I've seen people say the show wants you to fill the gaps themselves... But this is only possible if you ignore what was shown to us. It would be more plausible if it happened off-screen. In their infinite wisdom D&D decided to show fires lightning up at the exact same time in the camp. And a burning horse... Simply ridiculous. 20 men are much easier to spot then one man. And the fires all went up at the exact same time? A burning horse is shown. And it is said they lost all their horses. Yet even one horse near death should have woken the entire camp. Animals make noises when thratened. This scene is literally impossible. No amount of mental gymnastics can justify it. Especially when your only argument is ''It makes sense to me''.

The fires don't start at 'exactly the same time, if you watch the clip there is a gap which would actually be easily explained by men being told to watch for the first fire before lighting their own. Horses would not be kept individually, with the exception of the kings and knights, they would be kept in groups to allow grooms to feed and water them in a efficient manner, therefore is it really hard to believe that one group could be slaughtered?

 

Your second paragraph, you do realize the first two sentences are put forward that maybe Barristen had good fortune, and then saying you can't assume the same for the show. As for the one man stealth mission vs 20, I agree, though again, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that all 20 men were approaching from the same direction. Barristen did get to the dungeons before the alarm sounded, that's fine, completely plausible. However, he did not get out before the alarm was sounded, he had to fight his way out whilst protecting his unarmored king.

 

Anyway as I've said several times I don't find the 20 men particularly convincing, but it does prove how people who accuse others of bending the realms of possibility to protect the show are guilty of EXACTLY the same thing.

[ViniciusMJ]

People. Many great movies have plot holes or twisted logic or impossible ways to get desired outcomes. It is known.

 

Game of Thrones had its share, considerably larger than the tolerable amount for some. But it is not that important for the appreciation of the show - unless an error take you away from it.

 

I take for example the Hardhome scene, compared to the 20 good men scene. None of them made sense (the magical wind that kills everyone stopped by wooden gates; the impossibilities of the action of Ramsay considering all the shit necessary to his accomplishment), but the Hardhome one entertained me far more. Why? Because the 20 good men scene was so clearly a plot convenience that took me away from the show, while the Hardhome Magical Wooden Gate created suspense.

 

It is not just about physical and logical impossibilities, it is about the scenes being able to generate what they are supposed to in a storytelling sense. Taking the example of Arya in Harrenhal: it would not hurt if GRRM had established more clearly the distrust Arya had for Roose Bolton. Of course, we can figure it out, especially with hindsight. But this could, maybe, hurt the story more, for spilling the beans too much, like some chapters sadly do, particularly in AFfC and ADwD.

[Toth]

Let's see what the Wiki says to Selmy's action, it is quoting "World of Ice and Fire":

 

"The Defiance ended when Ser Barristan Selmy sneaked into the Dun Fort, the seat of House Darklyn, and rescued his King. Many songs would later be made about Selmy's daring infiltration. Selmy disguised as a hooded beggar climbed the walls of Duskendale in the dead of night, walking through the town streets. Cloaked and hooded he approached the Walls of Dunfort, scaling the walls of the castle, and slaying a sentry before the man could raise the alarm. Selmy through stealth and courage found his way to the dungeons and freed Aerys and led him to the upper levels. During the escape attempt, Barristan slew two guards and Ser Symon Hollard, avenging the death of his sworn brother, Ser Gwayne Gaunt. He and the King rushed to the Stables, Selmy slaying all those who tried to intervene as the alarm was being raised. Selmy and his king mounted on stolen horses charged out the Dunfort gates before they could be barred and raced through the streets of Duskendale to the towns walls eventually escaping."

 

That's daring, but it explained how he did it and it was not completely unfeasable it could work like that. If D&D hat wrote the same thing it would have been Selmy telling Tywin "I just need a hooded cloak" - cut - We see Selmy and Arys arriving at the camp of the loyalists. That would have been extremely lazy... and that's exactly what "20 good men" is.

[Pyat>Daenerys]

It still doesn't hold water. Arya is 10 not 3. She knows who her father's banners are. She knows the Bolton's and Starks have been allies for hundreds of years. She knows Roose is fighting her brothers war. She just saw Roose take a castle from her brother's enemies. For as smart as Arya's been portrayed before and since that it is unprecedentedly illogical for her not to tell him who she is. It's a blatant cop out so people don't have to acknowledge it as a flaw of the books. The only reason it gets a pass is because in the long run it helped her. If right when Roose took the castle she told him, she would have been in Riverrun by the start of ASOS. I don't need this she had a bad feeling BS. 99% of what she knew and saw told her this was someone who worked for her brother. She elected to kill a guy and take a group of people that she was just captured with out into a warzone to find a place she never had been to before against all logic because Roose doesn't come off as a nice guy. Sorry it's patently illogical. Especially for Arya. It's given a pass because the plot demanded it and nothing more.

Actually Barristan's mission is far worse because he was one man raiding the most valuable prisoner of highly guarded castle on the enemies own turf when everything about it said that he should fail. The 20 good men were 20 guys spending god knows how much time (and with the help of however many sellwsords) sneaking into an enemy camp in their own region in the middle of winter, lighting a few fires, and bolting before people realized what was going on. Ramsay needed every man to light two fires (if that) and leave. Barristan needed to sneak in, bypass all the guards, make it Aery's tower, break Aery's out, then get out of the castle with this old crazy prisoner while everyone was going after him. It's the difference between sneaking into a place, trashing it and leaving, and breaking in, finding the most heavily protected valuable item and lugging it out while the alarms are sounding.

D&D showed 12 tents (exactly 12) light on fire roughly in a row (it wasn't all at once, and we saw a horse run by with his harness caught on fire.

 

Have you been reading the books? Not sure if you've noticed but children's inner monologue is different from adults. Even Bran, who I would argue is smarter then Arya, often goes on tangents about wanting to be a knight. Or not understanding things fully and pretending he does. Arya portrayed as smart? Arya is a child, still. And she is very emotionally driven. She often doesn't think things through. (She only realizes she could've killed Tywin after she watches him leaving Harrenhal) Her decision about Roose was not a thought process evaluating everything. But simple instinct. This makes sense especially for Arya. And you ignored the point she's switched many sides in a short amount of time, making her wary and untrusting.

 

Once again, you ignored almost all my points. It was established as borderline impossible. We weren't shown what happened. A one man stealth mission is much easier to accomplish then a 20 man mission. And escorting a prisoner and killing a few gaurds is much easier than burning/destroying/killing all the supplies, the siege weapons and horses. These are facts. Horses should make noises that would wake everyone. They shouldn't even be able to kill 1/3rd of them. The fact they all got away and Stannis just realized what happened after losing everything is stupid. Again,  this would be better then if they wouldn't have shown it to us. You are making assumptions, which are far-fetched and require to unsee actual material D&D have shown us. Don't you realize how stupid this is?

[Red Typer of Dorne]

Let's see what the Wiki says to Selmy's action, it is quoting "World of Ice and Fire":

 

"The Defiance ended when Ser Barristan Selmy sneaked into the Dun Fort, the seat of House Darklyn, and rescued his King. Many songs would later be made about Selmy's daring infiltration. Selmy disguised as a hooded beggar climbed the walls of Duskendale in the dead of night, walking through the town streets. Cloaked and hooded he approached the Walls of Dunfort, scaling the walls of the castle, and slaying a sentry before the man could raise the alarm. Selmy through stealth and courage found his way to the dungeons and freed Aerys and led him to the upper levels. During the escape attempt, Barristan slew two guards and Ser Symon Hollard, avenging the death of his sworn brother, Ser Gwayne Gaunt. He and the King rushed to the Stables, Selmy slaying all those who tried to intervene as the alarm was being raised. Selmy and his king mounted on stolen horses charged out the Dunfort gates before they could be barred and raced through the streets of Duskendale to the towns walls eventually escaping."

 

That's daring, but it explained how he did it and it was not completely unfeasable it could work like that. If D&D hat wrote the same thing it would have been Selmy telling Tywin "I just need a hooded cloak" - cut - We see Selmy and Arys arriving at the camp of the loyalists. That would have been extremely lazy... and that's exactly what "20 good men" is.

 

Or you could look at the direct quote from AWOIAF.

I'm not arguing the importance to the plot are equal, and actually neither have you, I'm arguing the acts are of a similar level of likeliness. Geaorge actually does give us some specifics which if anything make it even more unbelievable. The following is again from AWOIAF;

 

'The songs of Ser Barristan's daring rescue of the king are many, and, for a rarity, the singers hardly had to embroider it. Ser Barristan did indeed scale the walls unseen in the dark of the night, using nothing but his bare hands, and he did disguise himself as a hooded beggar as he made his way to the Dun Fort. It is true, as well, that he managed to scale the walls of the Dun Fort in turn, killing a guard on the wallwalk before he could raise the alarm. Then, by stealth and courage, he found his way to the dungeon where the king was being kept. By the time he had Aerys Targaryen out of the dungeon, however, the king's absence had been noted, and the hue and cry went up. And then the true breadth of Ser Barristan's heroism was revealed, for he stood and fought rather than surrender himself or his king'

 

'.And not only did he fight, but he struck first, taking Lord Darklyn's good-brother and master-at-arms, Ser Symon Hollard, and a pair of guards unawares, slaying them all—and so avenging the death of his Sworn Brother, Ser Gwayne Gaunt of the Kingsguard, who had been killed at Hollard's hand. He hurried with the king to the stables, fighting his way through those who tried to intervene, and the two were able to ride out of Dun Fort before the castle's gates could be closed. Then there was the wild ride through the streets of Duskendale, while horns and trumpets sounded the alarm, and the race up to the walls as Lord Tywin's archers attempted to clear it of defenders'.

They are very similar but the direct quote states the alarm was raise by the time Barristen escaped the dungeons, before he reached the stables. There were already people looking for him and he has to fight them off while protecting his vulnerable king.

[Toth]

@Typer: Sorry, haven't seen your post before and I have Worlds only as Audiobook. Nevermind then.

[Mychel_Redfort]

It still doesn't hold water. Arya is 10 not 3. She knows who her father's banners are. She knows the Bolton's and Starks have been allies for hundreds of years. She knows Roose is fighting her brothers war. She just saw Roose take a castle from her brother's enemies. For as smart as Arya's been portrayed before and since that it is unprecedentedly illogical for her not to tell him who she is. It's a blatant cop out so people don't have to acknowledge it as a flaw of the books. The only reason it gets a pass is because in the long run it helped her.

It's true GRRM doesn't have Arya thinking about her doubts about Roose. But there's the scene where she asks Roose whether he will take her with him when he leaves Harrenhal. His answer is no, and right after that Arya decides to flee and try to reach Riverrun by herself. This tells me she doesn't trust Roose (with good reason) and she would have played the cupbearer only if he had led her to Robb.

[Red Typer of Dorne]

@Typer: Sorry, haven't seen your post before and I have Worlds only as Audiobook. Nevermind then.

No problem, if you're interested for the future use http://asearchoficeandfire.comyou can search all the books including AWOIAF and D&E

[ViniciusMJ]

If the Mummers catch us, I’ll tell them that I’m Ned Stark’s daughter and sister to the King in the North. I’ll command them to take me to my brother, and to do no harm to Hot Pie and Gendry. They might not believe her, though, and even if they did … Lord Bolton was her brother’s bannerman, but he frightened her all the same. I won’t let them take us, she vowed silently, reaching back over her shoulder to touch the hilt of the sword that Gendry had stolen for her. I won’t.

From ASoS first Arya chapter. I think this settles it.

[PatrickStormborn]

As has already been pointed out, Arya even worries about revealing herself to Robb and Cat because of what she's done. She also doesn't think she would be able to convince the Blackfish that she was Arya Stark. So why would she tell Roose Bolton, who is allied with people she actually fears (Rorge, Biter, and the Bloody Mummers)?

 

And the comparison between Barristan/Duskendale and Ramsay's 20 Good Men is absolutely fucking ridiculous LOL. One of them is a piece of backstory and one is a significant plot development that has huge ramifications for all the characters involved.

[Pyat>Daenerys]

The fires don't start at 'exactly the same time, if you watch the clip there is a gap which would actually be easily explained by men being told to watch for the first fire before lighting their own. Horses would not be kept individually, with the exception of the kings and knights, they would be kept in groups to allow grooms to feed and water them in a efficient manner, therefore is it really hard to believe that one group could be slaughtered?

 

Your second paragraph, you do realize the first two sentences are put forward that maybe Barristen had good fortune, and then saying you can't assume the same for the show. As for the one man stealth mission vs 20, I agree, though again, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that all 20 men were approaching from the same direction. Barristen did get to the dungeons before the alarm sounded, that's fine, completely plausible. However, he did not get out before the alarm was sounded, he had to fight his way out whilst protecting his unarmored king.

 

Anyway as I've said several times I don't find the 20 men particularly convincing, but it does prove how people who accuse others of bending the realms of possibility to protect the show are guilty of EXACTLY the same thing.

 

Near the same time though. And I know horses are kept in groups. That's what makes it ridiculous. Try to kill even one and you will have hundreds of horses making a lot of noise, and trying to free themselves. There is no way these guys were getting out alive. The whole camp should be swarming. But instead they wake up and everything is destroyed and no sign of interlopers...

 

And it's easier for one man to get lucky, then for 20 men. It's easier for one man to remain hidden then 20 men. And the alarm got sounded while he was escaping. If it would be sounded while he was trying to reach Aerys they wouldn't have left the castle. And once again, everyone thought he won't make it. Aerys was considered a dead man by Tywin. In the show Ramsay just says ''I need 20 good men'' and it's treated like no big deal. As if it has no chance of failing.

[alienarea]

 
You sound like Stannis. ;)

Do you have a spare red witch? ;)

[FreeParking]

I didn't really have a big issue with Arya not revealing herself to Roose. I felt like part of her journey in ACOK was to delve herself into skepticism/cynicism. Waiting awhile to see who Roose was seemed fine to me, and of course he didn't take long to be a creepy fucker.

 

Wex, on the other hand, deserves criticism. Surviving Ramsay's sack of Winterfell and watching Bran and Rickon split up is fine. Wex then proceeds to follow Rickon, Osha, and Shaggydog in the opposite direction of the Iron Islands. Presumably he understands the sun's (or its equivalent's) movements enough to know that he is going in the wrong direction from home. Problem is that he follows them hundreds of miles with a wildling and a direwolf. So I guess the wind never changed directions so Shaggydog could smell Wex? Wex also had to forage or hunt for food for himself this entire distance. That alone is difficult to believe. Then Rickon, Osha, and Shaggydog head off to Skagos. How does he know they went to Skagos? He is a mute, so it is not like he could go into town and ask around. He then gets captured by the Manderlys and rather than kill the Ironborne, who is in open war against their realm, the Northerners question him. Did they corroborate his testimony that Rickon is in Skagos? Doesn't sound like it. Why should anyone believe that part of the story? Who knows. I am hoping there is something more going on there because what we are given sounds like so much BS. Why Davos didn't say "Hey, this doesn't add up" is beyond me.

[Primalsplit]

The king is naked in the show and no one speaks of it. It's not an illogical event though, just psychology  :leer:

[Bobby b's bobby]

The king is naked in the show and no one speaks of it. It's not an illogical event though, just psychology  :leer:

Emperors new clothes?

[ViniciusMJ]

Wex, on the other hand, deserves criticism. Surviving Ramsay's sack of Winterfell and watching Bran and Rickon split up is fine. Wex then proceeds to follow Rickon, Osha, and Shaggydog in the opposite direction of the Iron Islands. Presumably he understands the sun's (or its equivalent's) movements enough to know that he is going in the wrong direction from home. Problem is that he follows them hundreds of miles with a wildling and a direwolf. So I guess the wind never changed directions so Shaggydog could smell Wex? Wex also had to forage or hunt for food for himself this entire distance. That alone is difficult to believe. Then Rickon, Osha, and Shaggydog head off to Skagos. How does he know they went to Skagos? He is a mute, so it is not like he could go into town and ask around. He then gets captured by the Manderlys and rather than kill the Ironborne, who is in open war against their realm, the Northerners question him. Did they corroborate his testimony that Rickon is in Skagos? Doesn't sound like it. Why should anyone believe that part of the story? Who knows. I am hoping there is something more going on there because what we are given sounds like so much BS. Why Davos didn't say "Hey, this doesn't add up" is beyond me.

 

I had problems with that as well, but not with Davos not asking anything, because this can happen "off-screen". My major problem is that GRRM seemed to put Rickon in Skagos only to give Davos something to do other than fight besides Stannis and to show Skagos to us. I can't think of any reason for Osha to take him there, except if she is being kind of a turncloak.

[bent branch]

The difference between what people are calling illogical in the show and what people are calling illogical in the books is huge.

 

Let's talk about Barristan saving Aerys from the Dunfort. This is an event that we don't know the details of yet. We don't even know why Aerys was taken at the Dunfort, let alone how Barristan got Aerys out. I am predicting that there are revelations still coming about Duskendale. We will learn how the situation developed and how Barristan was able to get into the Dunfort to rescue Aerys. I believe we will find out that someone on the inside (the Dunfort's maester) helped Barristan. If the books finish without ever fully explaining what happened at Duskendale, then we can say the storyline was illogical.

 

On the other hand, what is being called illogical on the show will never be explained. My favorite example of this is Jon and the Wildlings showing up on the north side of the Wall. If they didn't explain why they had to return to Castle Black from the north side of the Wall at the time, then the show will never bother explaining this discrepancy. I think it is fair to call that illogical right now.

[Prince Lou of House Reed]

I dont understand leaving out Jon telling Stannis to learn how to get the north to support him in his cause. It shows Jon's intelligence and desire to save Winterfell and could have been for some compelling Stannis scenes instead of his nonsensical march to death. Jon never having Ghost around is a let down too it's not like they have this special bond or anything...

[Bobby b's bobby]

I dont understand leaving out Jon telling Stannis to learn how to get the north to support him in his cause. It shows Jon's intelligence and desire to save Winterfell and could have been for some compelling Stannis scenes instead of his nonsensical march to death. Jon never having Ghost around is a let down too it's not like they have this special bond or anything...

In the show Im pretty sure ghost is now sams