Dating: Not just for the carbon isotopes

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Interesting article that says that white men account for 69% of violent crimes against women.

 

It's fascinating, because if you google this subject, the Dept. of Justice will tell you similar stats.  I think you have to factor population into it, but when you do, it's pretty cut and dry.  White men are far more likely culprits, simply because there are more of them?  That seems to be the conclusion.

 

From the article - 

 

 

When Kohn said that 69 percent of arrests for violent crimes were white males, she left out the population factor.

"You can't talk about risk without talking about population size," Fox told PunditFact. "There are many more whites than blacks so it makes sense that the number of crimes will be high."

Using the homicide count (again, the only crime where we can separate on both race and gender) whites and blacks were arrested in about equal numbers. But cast as a rate, the results shift. For 2013, Fox calculated that black men were about seven times more likely than white men to be arrested for murder. That would be a rate of 33 murders for every 100,000 black men, compared to 4.7 for every 100,000 whites.

 

ETA:  If a mod wants to delete, I totally understand.  This is kind of off topic.  My apologies for that.

I think the article was talking about all violence, not just against women. And "White" didn't exclude Hispanics, who are a significant percentage of the population.

[sperry]

Are you kidding? It permeates this thread. Most recently, sperry evinced an incredulity regarding the idea that this is a routine occurrence. Several people earlier in the thread have helpfully chimed in to say they don't do it.

 

 

No, I "evinced an incredulity" that it is "the norm," which implies that NOT being berated after turning down a guy would be the outlier, as well as that this is a phenomenon concentrated more heavily in white men than other ethnic groups.

 

 

And I'm unsure as to why anecdotal evidence of this having happened to the women of the board has probative value, whereas anecdotal evidence of men on the board having never seen this occur or never having done so themselves is dismissed out of hand as "contributing to the problem."

[Elder Sister]

I think the article was talking about all violence, not just against women. And "White" didn't exclude Hispanics, who are a significant percentage of the population.

.

 

This one is broken down by crimes against women.

[Kelli Fury]

Because unless you are actively doing it yourself you would not see it happening, because it is happening in private conversations. Also, many men who do this do not think that is what they are doing. So, the only people who have the information on this are women. Ask the females of your acquaintance what happens at a bar or on a dating site what happens when they reject a guy. Ask them if they ever lie and say they have a boyfriend because a man is more likely to respect another mans territory than the woman's preference.

[Inigima]

No, I "evinced an incredulity" that it is "the norm," which implies that NOT being berated after turning down a guy would be the outlier,

This is literally what I said.

And I'm unsure as to why anecdotal evidence of this having happened to the women of the board has probative value, whereas anecdotal evidence of men on the board having never seen this occur or never having done so themselves is dismissed out of hand as "contributing to the problem."

Asking women is basically the only way to gather this data. This is typically not a formally reported occurrence, nor is it typically a crime or otherwise actionable. Asking men is less valuable, because you are simply not privy to the frequency of occurrence that women are.

[Elder Sister]

It's a little frustrating to me that every time this subject is raised, or similar subjects, it turns into women defending the fact that this is their experience.  Whether it's online gaming, dating, or whatever, the onus is on us to prove that we actually experience what we say we're experiencing.  

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

It's a little frustrating to me that every time this subject is raised, or similar subjects, it turns into women defending the fact that this is their experience.  Whether it's online gaming, dating, or whatever, the onus is on us to prove that we actually experience what we say we're experiencing.  

 

Nobody is doing that here. Literally - nobody. Nobody has raised a single doubt about ANY of the personal experiences that women have claimed on this topic. 

 

What certain people have done is question some serious generalizations that have been made about "white male culture" in contrast to other cultures and to question certain characterizations about what something means to be the "norm." 

 

But, and I repeat, because I think is pretty important to make clear - nobody is saying that any woman has not experienced exactly what she says she's experienced in the thread. Nobody. Not one person. 

[Salome the Persian Witch]

And, to Kay's point, asking guys is going to net one a sample of guys who say one thing but act entirely differently when faced with a woman who rejects them, or feel like their actions are justified.

I specifically have in mind the one guy on OK Cupid who reached out to me and said, "would you ever date a guy in a wheelchair?" (He was in a wheelchair). I said "I would, but my dance card is a little full at the moment. I'll let you know if things change." He called me a "shallow bitch", among other things.

I'm sure he thought his reaction to my very polite (and honest! I couldn't have fit another guy into my upcoming dating schedule at that point!) rejection was TOTALLY justified.

 

Um, I'm rather thinking responding to a guy in a wheelchair using a dance metaphor might have been the reason for the response there imho.

[brook]

I can't speak for the gay men on this board, but I don't know a single gay man who hasn't had at least a few straight women try to convert him.  And gay women are notorious for trying to flip straight women.  So, I don't think straight men are even close to be exclusive in this behavior. 

Homophobic stereotypes while decrying the dangers of stereotyping straight men? Nice.

I didn't say straight men just ftr. My profile is not visible to straight men (aside from the ones who list their profile as women to get around that filter) because I am not an idiot.

It just so happens that the minority within a minority of bisexual men who are willing to ignore my clearly stated boundaries is a whole lot bigger than the (non-existent) group of women willing to do the same.

[IamMe90]

 
Um, I'm rather thinking responding to a guy in a wheelchair using a dance metaphor might have been the reason for the response there imho.

Uhmm.. Yeah, gonna have to agree with this...

[Elder Sister]

Nestor, I'm confused.  If white people make up 72% of the population, at least in the U.S., doesn't it make sense that the majority of problems are going to be demonstrated in these sorts of scenarios by white men?  

 

It seems like men in the thread are getting upset that we've said, 'white men' cause the majority of these problems.  Am I correct that this is what is bothering you?

[Red Tiger]

 

Nobody is doing that here. Literally - nobody. Nobody has raised a single doubt about ANY of the personal experiences that women have claimed on this topic. 

 

What certain people have done is question some serious generalizations that have been made about "white male culture" in contrast to other cultures and to question certain characterizations about what something means to be the "norm." 

 

But, and I repeat, because I think is pretty important to make clear - nobody is saying that any woman has not experienced exactly what she says she's experienced in the thread. Nobody. Not one person. 

Thank you

[IamMe90]

Well, I'm confused.  If white people make up 72% of the population, at least in the U.S., doesn't it make sense that the majority of problems are going to be demonstrated in these sorts of scenarios by white men?  
 
It seems like men in the thread are getting upset that we've said, 'white men' cause these problems.  Am I correct that this is what is bothering you?

It's the only claim that I've found problematic in the thread. From my somewhat detached observations as a gay male, heterosexual males of all races tend to exhibit the problematic behaviors y'all are describing alarmingly often.

Edit: to be clear, the claim from a lot of posters seems to be that white males exhibit this behaviour in significantly higher proportion to males of other races, not that there is a higher number of white males proportional to the overall population who do this.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

 

Um, I'm rather thinking responding to a guy in a wheelchair using a dance metaphor might have been the reason for the response there imho.

 

People in wheelchairs can dance. 

[Elder Sister]

Okay, fair enough, IamMe.

[Salome the Persian Witch]

Hey Nestor, with all due respect, I'm thinking there might be a little more cross talk with regards to your posts as well.  Among a number of areas, I think one might be what was already raised - your metaphor seeming to expound the equivalence of preventative locking one's doors when there's likely not a chance of being robbed vs. what many others here have been saying (and likely feel unheard about) is that it's not a simple prophylactic measure just in case something unlikely to happen might. 

 

I think that, although I believe you're aware of what women are saying, and are aware of the dangers, some of us may feel you're not acknowledging the prevalence and quantity of the dangerous/unpleasant experiences, and could see your example as a minimization. 

[Salome the Persian Witch]

 

People in wheelchairs can dance. 

 

Hell yeah they can!  But I'm not sure the limits constantly projected onto them by others would, in this instance, contribute to feeling respected and seen.

[Seventh Pup]

The New York Times and other sources (Google: prevalence of sexual assault in United States) state that 1 in 5 women in the U.S. have been raped, one in four have been beaten by an intimate partner, and 1 in 6 have been stalked. Quoting a CDC survey.

The Times concluded that violence against women in America is endemic.

 

I am so incredibly lucky because I have never been raped or beaten. I am also the only woman in my immediate family (2 older sisters, mother, and step mother) who can say that.  Violence against women is so real, and yet much of it is so invisible. Only one of the women in my family ever went to the police with what happened to her, nothing ever came of it. 

 

I am also lucky because I've never had a guy get violent or abusive when I turned them down. Though full disclosure I didn't get hit on a lot when I was single and out and about. I think a lot this comes down to the fact that I am very suspicious and tend to be guarded when in any "meat market" situations.  One of my friends sent me this link, and said that this reminded her of me when we used to go out.  I almost never wore high heels, I tried to wear shoes I could run in, that was literally what I thought about when I would dress for a night out, (if I had to run, and or fight for my life could I in this outfit and shoes?)  I also rarely drank, only if I knew we had a designated driver that I could trust, and who was otherwise with the group the whole night. Even when I did drink I very rarely got drunk.  

 

I also used to act kind of like the body guard of the group. I was often the one that ran interference when guys would get too handsie, or temperamental when a friend would reject them. True story I almost got punched when one of my friends didn't want a drink that a guy wanted to give her, and I basically cut him off from further contact with her. He wanted to fight me, I laughed at him and said "are you seriously going hit me?"  The guy angrily yelled at me to meet him outside for a fight. This guy was Asian by the way, so I don't think it's just a white guy thing.  In the meantime I had pepper spray and my cellphone in my pocket and was desperately trying to see if I could locate a bouncer. There was also no way in hell I was going to "take it outside" to fight, I wasn't trying to disrespect the guy's honor, I was trying to make sure that my friend staid safe. I was scared as hell when we left the club that we where going to get jumped.  So yeah, I was the bitch friend that you always here about. As in "This girl was totally into me, but her bitch friend wouldn't leave her alone". By the way I never ran interference when my friends actually liked a guy. I never once cock blocked a guy who would have otherwise scored. 

 

ETA

 

I don't think someone should basically prepare to fight for their life because they want to go out and dance.

[Pendergraft]

You're not being rude or disrespectful, they are. You don't owe anything beyond 'not interested' and anyone who continues to push past that is being unbelievably rude.
Sadly with that type of guy saying anything at all is likely to be taken as encouragement.

 
Right, I should've just walked off after the second question. Situations like these are beneficial to prepare me for the next.

 

Is this at a gym? If he keeps that shit up, report it to the management. I'm lucky in that the manager and senior staff at my gym are great about dealing with creepers, but some gyms have a serious culture problem around the harassment of women (side note: I find gyms such sociologically fascinating places, no joke). You might find that he tries to pull something similar on every new girl.

  
It's a stand alone boxing gym, no machines just a boxing ring and boxing equipments. I only signed up for 4 sessions that lasted a week of and this guy approached me on my last day. He probably has a reputation but I didn't stay long enough to know the culture.

What a CREEP!  I seriously don't understand this mentality at all.  I like the idea that if this happens again, or if you see him do it to other girls at the gym, to report him.  I also don't think you acted rude at all.  If I wasn't prepared to date yet I would just tell them that I was married, but then again I've never been approached like this and think the whole situation is SUPER creepy.

 
Yeah I would've definitely reported him if I had stayed longer than a week at the gym.

 

Can we all agree that we shouldn't have to lie to people (saying one is married when one is not) in order to let someone know that you are not interested?

I concur! I don't want to have to lie to just tell some stranger that I'm not interested!  

 

I also used to act kind of like the body guard of the group. I was often the one that ran interference when guys would get too handsie, or temperamental when a friend would reject them. True story I almost got punched when one of my friends didn't want a drink that a guy wanted to give her, and I basically cut him off from further contact with her. He wanted to fight me, I laughed at him and said "are you seriously going hit me?"  The guy and angrily yelled at me to meet him outside for a fight. This guy was Asian by the way, so I don't think it's just a white guy thing.  In the meantime I had pepper spray and my cellphone in my pocket and was desperately trying to see if I could locate a bouncer. There was also no way in hell I was going to "take it outside" to fight, I wasn't trying to disrespect the guy's honor, I was trying to make sure that my friend staid safe. I was scared as hell when we left the club that we where going to get jumped.  So yeah, I was the bitch friend that you always here about. As in "This girl was totally into me, but her bitch friend wouldn't leave her alone". By the way I never ran interference when my friends actually liked a guy. I never once cock blocked a guy who would have otherwise scored. 
 
I don't think someone should basically prepare to fight for their life because they want to go out and dance.

I'm the same way with my girlfriends when we used to go out. More often than not, they pull me away when a guy is totally inappropriate because I have a black belt in aikido and the odds of me incapacitating the guy before I get hit is too much trouble for one night.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

It's a strange world in the dating scene for a woman. I can't fathom it.