Marvel Cinematic Universe General Discussion 4: Set Phases to 3

[The Anti-Targ]

Sorry about the oblique Star Trek reference. 400 Posts in the last thread, and picking up on this point is as good a place to transition as any. Given casting for Captain Marvel is a pet interest for me

 

 

"I agree with a lot of what others have said. But one extra factor to consider...

 

Whether people agree with it or not, there is a perception in Hollywood that female-led action movies don't succeed. The Hunger Games and Divergent movies have hopefully done something to battle that perception. But it's clear that Marvel have been on board with it until now (still no Black Widow movie, or any others with a female as the lead).

 

So... maybe they'd want to shell out a little more for a bigger name to try and combat this perceived issue?"

 

Edit: Quote from near the end of the previous thread. Copying quotes no longer retains the formatting. Didn't used to be the case, or am I doing it wrong?

 

Right. So I'm not entirely sure Divergent can be quoted as an unmitigate success in terms of box office in a way that should give hope for the future of female lead action movies. Critically it was not too well received, and the audience numbers were not brilliant. The 2 movies have made their money back, thanks in part to modest (by today's blockbuster standards) budgets. If Prince of Persia had an Insurgent-like budget it would have made a profit.

 

Hunger Games is a different matter. But both this and Divergent have one element of distinction which makes their success not transferrable to Captain Marvel: teen girl power. I'm not entirely sure Marvel can make a Captain Marvel movie that needs teen girls as a main audience draw and be true to the expectations of Marvel fans. Unless that is they bring in Ms Marvel and add some racial and religious diversity at the same time and have her be the thing that draws the teen girls in. Trouble is I don;t think they can do that AND tell Captain Marvel's story properly.

 

I'd say Mad Max gives us the better example of a headline female in an action movie, that works with the audience. Just a pity that technically the lead is the male character. Charlize is the one who makes that movie special.

 

All that gives somewhat more weight to the idea that they need to hire a top name for Captain Marvel. And unfortunately, for all she is a fan favourite in GoT as Brienne, I don't think there is enough cross over for Gwendoline Christie to be really in the mix, except in my fantasies. It kind of does put Charlize Theron out there at the head of the pack IMO. If they don't cast her then anyone else will be a less ideal casting, though there are plenty of women who can do the role justice, and be a good audience draw.

[AndrewJ]

Yeah - I don't disagree with anything you said. I view the "Ergents" as a moderate success only, whereas as The Hunger Games movies are a bona-fide hit.

 

And yes, these movies definitely target a different demographic. But that still doesn't stop me from hoping that their relative success might contribute to breaking the "woman can't lead action movies" perception.

 

And hey... maybe the perception is true. It could be that the largely male demogrphic that goes to these movies simply won't turn out in numbers if a woman is the lead character, no matter how good it is. I certainly hope that's not the case and it would suck if it turns out to be true, but it's definitely a possibility. (I'm hoping it's unlikely, though.)

[Lord Hanna]

Kill Bill comes to mind when talking about female lead action movies. 

[The Anti-Targ]

There are enough examples of action movies headlined by women that they can be successful. I think it's still the case that the best performing video game adaptation is Tomb Raider. And of course that benefited immensely from having Angie play the lead. Even though at best it was a mediocre movie. And of course the Resident Evil movies are all headlined by Milla Jojovich, though they only keep making these because they are pretty low budget so they have a low hurdle to profitability.

 

However, there is probably a saturation point for the main demographic for action movies (13-35 year old males) where a woman is the sole lead. Whereas there is no saturation point for that demographic where a man is the sole lead or principle co-lead. In that respect, as long as 2018 doesn't become the year of the female action hero, Captain Marvel done well should be a success. If done really well it could be a huge success, because, well girls and women will go see it in numbers not seen in the male headlined MCU movies. 'Marvellous Captain Marvel Makes  $1 billion', that's a headline I'd dearly love to see, well except for the cheesy Marvellous bit.

[The Anti-Targ]

Kill Bill comes to mind when talking about female lead action movies. 

I was gonna mention that, but it wasn't a wild success. Though $330 million (combined) is nothing to scoff at...(at which to scoff?). However it did make a huge amount of money in comparison to its budget. The budget for Capt Marvel will likely be very similar to the worldwide gross for KBv1. Maybe Q should direct Captain Marvel. He just needs a minder to keep the language and gore in check to make sure it stays in the PG range, so he'd probably turn it down. Uma is also on my wishlist for the Capt Marvel cast, behind Charlize though. She's another star who is very widely known, but who's asking price is pretty well within reach. There is something somewhat compelling about former stars making a big screen comeback, if nothing else it's a marketing angle. Unfortunately it seems middle aged male actors making a comeback seem to be more marketable than middle aged female actors making a comeback. It's kind of like the women need to be moving into retirement age so they can play specific roles before they can make a comeback, sorta like Jane Fonda's re-emergence. Nobody wanted to know her when she was in her 40s and 50s. Now she plays a savvy matriarch like she was born to it. Of course there's an even greater example with Diana Rigg as Olenna Tyrell.  The biz is still far from a level playing field when it comes to the age/sex thing.

[Lord Hanna]

I was gonna mention that, but it wasn't a wild success. Though $330 million (combined) is nothing to scoff at...(at which to scoff?). However it did make a huge amount of money in comparison to its budget. The budget for Capt Marvel will likely be very similar to the worldwide gross for KBv1. Maybe Q should direct Captain Marvel. He just needs a minder to keep the language and gore in check to make sure it stays in the PG range, so he'd probably turn it down. Uma is also on my wishlist for the Capt Marvel cast, behind Charlize though. She's another star who is very widely known, but who's asking price is pretty well within reach. There is something somewhat compelling about former stars making a big screen comeback, if nothing else it's a marketing angle. Unfortunately it seems middle aged male actors making a comeback seem to be more marketable than middle aged female actors making a comeback. It's kind of like the women need to be moving into retirement age so they can play specific roles before they can make a comeback, sorta like Jane Fonda's re-emergence. Nobody wanted to know her when she was in her 40s and 50s. Now she plays a savvy matriarch like she was born to it. Of course there's an even greater example with Diana Rigg as Olenna Tyrell.  The biz is still far from a level playing field when it comes to the age/sex thing.

It may not have made that much money, but everyone knows what kill bill is. Culturally, it is very popular.

[The BlackBear]

Edit: Quote from near the end of the previous thread. Copying quotes no longer retains the formatting. Didn't used to be the case, or am I doing it wrong?

Selecting the quotation box can be a pain, I just use ctrl-A.

[The King in Black]

I think you all are looking at it too commercially. It'll be fine commercially ; the Disney Overlords won't fall and crumble on themselves if there are a few zeroes missing here and there. The reason this can be a minefield for Marvel, however, is the content of the film. More than Ant Man or even Doctor Strange, it's Black Panther and Captain Marvel; not only do they provide a scope for breaking out of the generic formula and explore some uncharted territory, but also here there will be a lot of righteous scrutiny in regards to characterization and presentation, and instead of being bogged down by this aspect Marvel must take it up as a challenge. Internet fanboys crying 'PC !' 'SJWs !' etc won't save them if they shy away from not throwing spotlight on racism, sexism, and other issues.

[red snow]

I'm not really sure what new territory Captain Marvel will explore unless it does make gender the focus? On Earth she's pretty much Iron Man or Thor. In space she's on the same turf as GOTG. So unless bridging between aliens and earth is her franchise's focus they really do need to use the fact it's a female superhero as a selling point.

Dr Strange is bringing "real" (not science) magic into the mix. I'm guessing Black Panther is bringing a future city/culture into the mix but isn't really opening up the Marvel Universe to much new. Although, in fairness, the Hulk and Captain America (especially after first Avenger) aren't really exploring new avenues outside of superhero stuff.

[CyanidePie]

A friend and I were talking today about what Marvel movies we wanted to see that weren't already scheduled and after both of us said Planet Hulk and WWHulk I started thinking about what else I wanted to see and it really hit me that it was a shame that Agents of SHIELD was a TV show with so many small fry agents running around because I would love to see a Bourne-esque series of espionage/political thriller movies called Agents of SHIELD where a SHIELD splinter cell team of Nick Fury, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Mockingbird, and Falcon went globe-trotting doing some top-secret espionage/infiltration/rescue/assassination/black-ops type shit.

Doing things like trying to locate The Winter Soldier (culminating in him reluctantly joining the team), hunting down the last remaining blocks of HYDRA, chasing down leads about the "real" Mandarin, trying to locate Bruce Banner etc. All while simultaneously being hunted themselves by the U.S. government and the larger arm of a Maria Hill-led SHIELD (who of course is still working closely with Fury, but she's forced to play along).

I've tried and failed multiple times to watch that show, but I'd really dig a couple of movies like this if they were of Bourne Trilogy quality.

[The BlackBear]

Where have you started with AoS?

 

Planet Hulk would be practically animated the amount of cgi necessary, and to then wrap it up with WWH would be a two film commitment. Then who would you have to pacify the hulk at the end? A big deal was made of Sentry finally unleashing his powers. Sentry is a problematic character at the best of times.

[CyanidePie]

Obviously Black Widow would show up at the end and touch his hand. Seriously though I realize WWH would be an incredibly problematic movie and it would never happen, but Planet Hulk is very doable. Marvel movies are already heavy CGI so I don't know that it would be that much of a problem. Then to tie it all in to the main narrative, you have the Guardians be the ones to rescue Hulk and help him overthrow the Red King before hitching a ride back to Earth with them, arriving just in time for Infinity War Part II: All Hands On Deck. Obviously not going to happen and it's all just nerdy fan-fic but whatevs.

I started AOS at The Winter Soldier episode like everyone I know told me to. I dunno, I just don't think it's my thing. I fucking HATE Coulson being alive, and I find the acting to be worthy of network television (which is to say it is not good). I can't stand the chick who plays Skye/Daisy/Quake and I don't like anyone on the team except for Mockingbird. I'm also REAL tired of HYDRA still being around. That shit should be dead and buried and the show should be about re-building SHIELD. Now they're introducing the Inhumans plot and it's just too much for these podunk Not-Really-SHIELD people to be doing.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Meh, Planet Hulk I don't really need, and won't happen.

 

Now, Future Imperfect on the other hand...with so few good villains, they really need the Maestro.

[Howdyphillip]

Stan Lee's list of top 10 Marvel films ranked.

 

http://therealstanlee.com/the-top-10-marvel-movies-of-all-time?utm_content=buffer15956&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

The list contains movies from all the studios.

[CyanidePie]

Blade and/or Blade II not being on that list is a travesty. Blade single handedly made it ok to make Marvel movies. Most under appreciated 2 movies ever.

[red snow]

Blade and/or Blade II not being on that list is a travesty. Blade single handedly made it ok to make Marvel movies. Most under appreciated 2 movies ever.

 

It's probably more to do with the fact that Stan didn't create or guest star in Blade. The guy is a shameless self-promoter and I bet he got money from all the ones on the list but probably not Blade.

 

I agree that Marvel (and the franchise in general) owes Blade a lot. I think that film triggered a lot of action movies (it beat the Matrix by a few months for the action scenes although Matrix surpassed it)

 

There is a Planet Hulk animated film - may as well watch that. I don't think it would work as a live action film - especially after John Carter.

[polishgenius]

To go back to a point trickster made at the end of the last thread:

 

 

Evans would not be getting what he's getting for non-Marvel films now if he was not Captain America. All of these actors (may be other than Scarlet Johansson) have received massive boosts in terms of their profile,salary etc. because of their involvement with Marvel movies. So the actors have more or less recouped the perceived loss in salary to be honest.

 

To be fair Chris Evans could probably have been properly mega-famous before he became Cap if he'd wanted. The fact that he's never really been fond of the spotlight is one of the reasons he initially turned down the role.

[trickster]

To go back to a point trickster made at the end of the last thread:

 

 

To be fair Chris Evans could probably have been properly mega-famous before he became Cap if he'd wanted. The fact that he's never really been fond of the spotlight is one of the reasons he initially turned down the role.

 

There is some chance that Chris Evans would have made it as a true A-lister even without being the Cap. But after the F4 bomb, he really needed that role.

[polishgenius]

But after the F4 bomb, he really needed that role.

 

It's hard to say he needed it when he didn't even want it.

 

Also: F4 didn't bomb and although everyone apparently thought it was shit, in my experience most people liked him in it. It's not as if it buried his career; he didn't do much high profile stuff in between because he didn't want to, is my point.

[CyanidePie]

I really hope that Marvel gives Chris Evans a movie to direct once his contract is up as a "thank you." It's what he's always wanted to do, and it'd be cool if his directorial debut was a Bucky Barnes Cap movie.