geogus Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Hi The way I see it , there is not a king of the land of westeros, but king of the people who live in the lands There are the first men, the first human inhabtants, the andals, the main population, and even the rhoynar, who arrived long after the destruction of their homeland. SO, why there is no reference in the full title to "the king of the ironborn or ironmen" For sure the natives of iron islands are under the rule of the king of the iron throne and after they rebel the title of their king pops up.... Why there are no reference the the ironborn, for sure Robert Baratheon was their king Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 I always thought that the IB were First Men who just happened to stay in the Islands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 I always thought that the IB were First Men who just happened to stay in the Islands. That's also what I thought, to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 That's also what I thought, to be fair. I think that we might be right. From TWOIAF: According to their faith, the ironborn are a race apart from the common run of mankind. “We did not come to these holy islands from godless lands across the seas,” the priest Sauron Salt-Tongue once said. “We came from beneath those seas, from the watery halls of the Drowned God who made us in his likeness and gave to us dominion over all the waters of the earth.” Even among the ironborn there are some who doubt this and acknowledge the more widely accepted view of an ancient descent from the First Men—even though the First Men, unlike the later Andals, were never a seafaring people. Certainly, we cannot seriously accept the assertions of the ironborn priests, who would have us believe that the ironmen are closer kin to fish and merlings than the other races of mankind. So they are either Human-Fish hybrids, mermaids or they are FM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 The Ironborn are just a sub-group of the First Men. It's not like the Crannogmen get mentioned int he title either, or the Mountain Clans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lointain Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 The Ironborn are a mix of First Men and Andals, that have the seafaring abilities of the Andals and the sea god worshiped by the First Men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 The Iron Born are mainly Andals who took the gods of the early first men Iron islanders . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 OOPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caspoi Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 BRANDON GREYSTARK@ They are hardly "mainly" andal, more like they have some andal blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Well if you listen to the Thenns everybody but them has at least some Andal blood. Likewise most Andal families have mixed their blood with the First Men. It really seems to be a cultural rather than a genetic divide by the time of the tie of Aegon's Conquest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Criston of House Shapper Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 The Ironborn are just a sub-group of the First Men. It's not like the Crannogmen get mentioned int he title either, or the Mountain Clans. The Mountain Clans are First Men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varys' member Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I just noticed that the acronym for Ironborn (Ib) is also the name of the island north of Essos. Coincidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 The Mountain Clans are First Men. That was my point ;) . Just like the Ironborn and the Crannogmen. The First Men are a really large group, spread over a huge area, so it makes sense for them to have developed some sub-groups here and there. The Sistermen are likely another such sub-group. Since they are all sub-sets of First Men it is not necessary to name them all in the title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronfried_IV Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I just noticed that the acronym for Ironborn (Ib) is also the name of the island north of Essos. Coincidence? Probably. Most likely the Iron Island were named after they found Iron there... I am on the First men side as well, but they are other races in there as well since kidnapping and takng Salt Wives is kind of their hobby.... The Drowned god is mostlikely an ancient first men god. Since the FM took over the gods of the children and maybe the Ironborn never converted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shireen Purratheon Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Probably. Most likely the Iron Island were named after they found Iron there... I am on the First men side as well, but they are other races in there as well since kidnapping and takng Salt Wives is kind of their hobby.... The Drowned god is mostlikely an ancient first men god. Since the FM took over the gods of the children and maybe the Ironborn never converted... I assume the same of the Sea God and Wind Goddess from the story of Durran Godsgrief, as well as the Lady of the Waves and Lord of the Skies worshiped by the Sistermen of times past. I figure the Drowned God, Lady of the Waves, and Sea God are pretty much the same entity; and the Storm God, Wind Goddess, and Lord of the Skies are pretty much the same entity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfgangII Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I agree with most have said: the term "First Men" can be used for all the ethinc people who traces back to the first men in Westeros (Ironborn, Mountain Clans, Crannongmen). To the OP, after "King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men", there is the title, "Lord of the Seven Kingdoms" (North, Iron Islands, Westerlands, Reach, Vale, Stormlands and Dorne; the Riverlands and Crowlands are not considered a kingdom of old) "and Protector of the Realm". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geogus Posted September 4, 2015 Author Share Posted September 4, 2015 Well if you listen to the Thenns everybody but them has at least some Andal blood. Likewise most Andal families have mixed their blood with the First Men. It really seems to be a cultural rather than a genetic divide by the time of the tie of Aegon's Conquest. I think ure right, its more about culture than genetics Iron born, dont matter if they were originally andal or first men, are an separate people with a culture of their own. For sure nobody refers them since the conquest as andals or first men, but as iron born. I also consider right that mountains clans, crannog men and maybe other have their own culture. However, those peoples do not seem to have made significant impact in westeros society as the iron born, who built Harrenhal and conquested 1/3 of the continent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 This is a really interesting question. I thought they were of the First Men myself but discovered that wasn't necessarily the case when I finally got around to reading the World Book. So, the Ironborn seem to be somewhat of a mystery as far as their origin goes. I don't doubt for a minute that once they arrived, by whatever means, they announced their presence with brutality. This is from the World of Ice & Fire: The World of Ice and Fire - The Iron Islands "According to their faith, the ironborn are a race apart from the common run of mankind. "We did not come to these holy islands from godless lands across the seas," the priest Sauron Salt-Tongue once said. "We came from beneath those seas, from the watery halls of the Drowned God who made us in his likeness and gave to us dominion over all the waters of the earth." "Even among the ironborn there are some who doubt this and acknowledge the more widely accepted view of an ancient descent from the First Men—even though the First Men, unlike the later Andals, were never a seafaring people. Certainly, we cannot seriously accept the assertions of the ironborn priests, who would have us believe that the ironmen are closer kin to fish and merlings than the other races of mankind." Archmaester Haereg once advanced the interesting notion that the ancestors of the ironborn came from some unknown land west of the Sunset Sea, citing the legend of the Seastone Chair. The throne of the Greyjoys, carved into the shape of a kraken from an oily black stone, was said to have beenby the First Men when they first came to Old Wyk. Haereg argued that the chair was a product of the first inhabitants of the islands, and only the later histories of maesters and septons alike began to claim that they were in fact descended of the First Men. But this is the purest speculation and, in the end, Haereg himself dismissed the idea, and so must we. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 The thing is their religion (a wind/storm deity and an ocean deity) seems to be related to other (pre-Old Gods) religions of the First Men, such as the Sistermen and the First Men inhabitants of the Stormlands (referenced in the origin story of Storm's End) The genders and relationships of the two deities vary but its always wind and water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nittanian Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Well if you listen to the Thenns everybody but them has at least some Andal blood. Likewise most Andal families have mixed their blood with the First Men. It really seems to be a cultural rather than a genetic divide by the time of the tie of Aegon's Conquest. I agree. George once stated, "Of course, you also need to remember that there have been hundreds and in some cases thousands of years of interbreeding, so hardly anyone is pure Andal or First Man." To the OP, after "King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men", there is the title, "Lord of the Seven Kingdoms" (North, Iron Islands, Westerlands, Reach, Vale, Stormlands and Dorne; the Riverlands and Crowlands are not considered a kingdom of old) "and Protector of the Realm". FYI, the Iron Islands and riverlands were considered a joint kingdom (Harren was "King of the Isles and the Rivers"), as opposed to the riverlands being part of the Kingdom of the Iron Isles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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