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(spoilers all) The Mad King Aerys = Azor Ahai


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(TL;DR exists at bottom of post)

This probably sounds absurd, like Varys is a Mermaid, but hear me out it ALL actually fits (perhaps a few leaps, but small ones). "The Basic Theory" only includes the basic guideline. So please read on for the actual arguments before dismissing it. I wanted to fully cover the possibilities involving this so some are more tinfoil than others. Finally it's best if we assume The Prince That was Promised and Azor Ahai are separate people. AKA I'm not saying Aerys is TPTWP

 

 

====THE BASIC THEORY====

 

This Theory has its base mostly in the forging of LightBringer:

 

"Darkness lay over the world and a hero, Azor Ahai, was chosen to fight against it. To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword."

 

He attempted to forge lightbringer 3 times by sticking his sword into water, a lion and his wife, the first two times the sword broke. In this theory, lightbringer is not a literal sword forged to kill the WW. It's 3 separate individuals born(or forged) to fight back the WW and bring light to the darkness. These 3 Individuals would grow up to be humanity's weapon against the Others. But like the first two attempts to forge the sword of legend the first two of these individuals would be "broken" in some sense or perhaps less than whole. The women Aerys sleeps with in order to "forge" these kids would each have to represent either "Water", "Lion", "Azor's Wife". Finally in order to forge these kids the mother dies in childbirth, just as Azor Ahai killed the lion and his wife. 

 

 

==== Who Were The Children He Forged ====

 

So if Azor Ahai's true role in the battle against the WW isn't as a warrior but as a figurative blacksmith who "forges" the weapon(s), lightbringer, that will go onto destroy them. Then who are the 3 women(water, lion, wife) Aeyrs impregnates and their children who go on to play a crucial part in the battle against WW?  First he tempered his sword (a possible euphemism for privates?) by sticking it in "Water", we'll get back to who this was later.  Then he tried for a second time with Joanna Lannister (Lion) to forge Tyrion. It would not be a stretch to say Tyrion is broken both emotionally and physically, he's often called the half man.  Finally he forged Dany, which perhaps makes her the true or completed lightbringer, with his wife Rhaella (Azor Ahai Wife). Both these women died giving birth to these children.

 

So then who's "Water", well that one is a bit tricky, but two candidates stick out and both require a "leap". The 2nd candidate is the most controversial because it breaks from generally accepted theories and is perhaps the least likely of the two, as her child would come after tyrion(lion) instead of before. 

 

1. Unknown Woman: There's a general lack of evidence to either support or disregard this candidate. But The World Of Ice And Fire does state that Aerys was 2nd only to Aegon the Unworthy when it came to having mistresses. So given how many bastards Aegon The unworthy had it would take a miracle for Aerys not to have conceived at least one.  Now it's known that every bastard is given a last name based on their father's land and in the Crownlands that name is "Waters". So then who could this mysterious bastard be? The only characters we know with the last name Waters is Aurane(stole the ships) and Humfrey(Commander of City Watch). Aurane was born after Tyrion and Humfrey is a total unknown. But what if its someone we know but who doesn't have the last name Waters? Someone who got to choose his own name because he'd been granted land and a title. I'm talking about Davos Seaworth, born in kingslanding, raised in fleabottom and parents unknown. A man who is POV character and like the 1st lightbringer is also broken (missing fingers). This websites Wiki also lists him as the only possible Human lightbringer for other reasons on their Lightbringer theories page. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lightbringer/Theories

 

2. Lyanna Stark: How is she "Water"? Well Fans often see her as representing "Ice" and what is "Ice" but frozen water? If we take this one step further and say the Targs represent "fire" then fire + Ice = Water. Finally all bastards take on a certain last name depending on where their father is from. finally if Jon Snow's father is a Targ then his last name should be "Waters" not snow. So how would this work? Aerys also attended the tournament at Harrenhall, where Rhaegar met Lyanna, it was the first and last time he left the highkeep in years. Maybe he saw Rhaegar's interest in her and kidnapped her to spite him or maybe he ordered Rhaegar to seduce and kidnap her. This totally shits on the R+L = J which I don't like. But even if you discount everything I've said so far, I think its important that we all question why 4 of the strongest and most bad ass knights under Aeyrs command were placed in front of the TOJ to guard a dying woman. The Kingsguard follow the orders of the King not the prince. So if Aerys thought of Lyanna as just some woman his son was banging, why would he place 4 of his best men hundreds of miles from the battlefield in a war they were losing. Wouldn't they be of better service fighting on the battlefield or protecting Rhaegar on the Trident or him in Kingslanding? If he viewed her as hostage then why not keep her in Kingslanding, like he did with Rhaegar's wife and children who held onto to insure dorne's loyalty. Then he'd have 5 kingsguard instead of just Jamie, the most inexperienced and least trustworthy. But if he believed or something was manipulating him to believe that protecting Lyanna's child was more important then himself or his kingdom. Then it's likely he would send her far away from the war and have her protected by his best men. It might also explain his rash/mad behavior in killing the starks and thus starting war instead of helping to return Lyanna. Because it was more important to hold onto her until her child was born.  

 

 

 ====Did Aerys Believe he Was Azor Ahai==== 

 

So lets examine motivations, in other words did Aery's personally believed himself to be Azor Ahai or some variation of him? The world of Ice and fire states Asshai and red priests aren't the only ones who tell the story of AA but they call him by different name (TPTWP and Last hero is not one of the names mentioned). So lets say he did see himself as an AA figure. This would mean that his actions were done purposeful for the sake of fulfilling a prophesy necessary to saving mankind from the long night. it might also mean that some of his actions that were written off as "madness" were not with out rhyme or reason. That's not to say he wasn't mad, just maybe it wasn't all madness. Evidence that he would have legitimate reason to believe he was AA depends on the role played by the Old Wood Witch (AKA Ghost of High Heart).We know she was introduced to the Targ Family by Jenny of oldstone and claimed to be one of the Children of the forest. We know Aerys and his family took her prophesy's serious enough to marry his sister, who he had no love for, simply because she foretold that TPTWP would be of their line. We also know she must have stayed close to the Targs because she was there at Summerhall the night It burned down and killed countless people. If he saw it as his duty to sire children with his wife for the sake of her prophesy, would he bear children with other women if she told him it was necessary? Dispite already having a male heir he seemed to have an unhealthy obsession with producing more children. 9 of the children he had with his wife wore stillborns or died young and after each death he would grow more crazy/paranoid. But It's said every time his wife birthed a healthy child he began to resemble his old self. This went beyond being an over protective parent. He never allowed anyone alone with his kids (not even his wife). He had his taste tester drink from the tit of his child's milk maid. He had thousands of children gifts sent by lords burnt. The Kingsguards were stationed day and night. 

 

It's also possible he had no personal thoughts of himself being a savior figure, that it was all madness. But in that madness he unwittingly played the role of  AA by forging 3 children destined to be humanity's weapon against the Others (aka Life = one big cosmic joke) 

 

Or maybe some divine force was at play, subtly manipulating aerys thoughts/behavior/actions with out him knowing in order to force him to bring forth the prophesy. From the perspective of those around Aery's, this divine manipulation would likely resemble a madness of sorts. We know that he didn't exhibit madness in his youth and we also know that his madness grew to new heights after The Defiance of Duskendale. But do we know where his madness might have started? The Tragedy at Summehall comes to mind, there's still a great deal of mystery surrounding that event. We know that his whole family and many others including the ghost of high heart gathered in summerhall to welcome Aerys first born son, Rhaegar, into the world. We also know that on that night, the Targ family took part in some unknown sorcery/ritual in an attempt to restore dragons to the world. The result was a fire so great that it burnt down the entire palace and took the lives of countless others including King Aegon(egg) and his heir Duncan. We know that powerful sorcery can have unexpected costs/consequences that come with them. so perhaps something happened to Aeyrs that night that planted the seed of madness and perhaps this madness was actually some unknown mystical force directing his actions with out him knowing. Perhaps he did die like his grandfather and something in the flames/sorcery revived him replacing a piece of himself with it as it did with Beric? Perhaps it caused this obsession with siring children and insuring their safety.    

 

 

====OTHER THINGS TO CONSIDER====

 

THE PRINCE THAT WAS PROMISED: I'm going to suggest it makes more sense if TPTWP is a seperate individual and melisandre is mistaken, as she often is, in assuming these two prophesies speak of the same person. I say this because the Targs had a very strong belief in TPTWP, as seen by Aery's marriage and aemon/Rhaegars comments. But the Targs seem to have no interest in the Red Priests, as seen by thoros's failed attempt at converting them. Based on what we can gather from Aemon, there are things linked to TPTWP like return of dragons, salt/smoke and a red comet.  Dany. Personally I'd favor either Dany as both the completed lightbringer/TPTWP or maybe Lightbringers = davos, tyrion, dany TPTWP = Jon.  

 

BURNING DOWN KINGSLANDING: Another thing to consider with this theory is maybe Aerys decision to fill Kingslanding with Wild Fire in an attempt to burn it to the ground wasn't just an insane act with no rhyme or reason. 24 years earlier his grandfather Aegon(egg) and many other family members died while performing some kind of fire sorcery/ritual in Summerhall, to revive the dragons, on the night Rhaegar was born. Perhaps Aerys, decided that he could succeed where they had failed. He might have concluded that the problem wasn't that they'd gone too far with the ritual, but that they hadn't gone far enough. So instead of setting an entire summer palace on fire he'd start a fire so big and hot that it would burn down all of Kingslanding(finally re-awaking the dragons). Also Kingslanding is on the sea so maybe it played into the smoke and salt prophesy. This isn't to say he wasn't "Mad" in doing this as you'd kind of have to be to burn an entire city down just cause you think some thousand year old prophesy. Then again Stannis isn't crazy and yet he's been willing to sacrifice/burn a lot of people close to him to the red god just because he believes he is Azor Ahai and has a holy mission to save mankind.

 

 

====CONCLUSION====

 

So I know it's really strange to think that one of the most vilified characters could be Azor Ahai and that some of his worst acts might have been done to save mankind. But if you take what I've said into account he does seem to meet all the criteria. other characters fit into some part but in order to make them fit everything we have to assume they will do certain things in the future books. Also this theories greatest strength is that it deals nicely with the confusion/bickering over whether jon or Dany or Tyrion are Azor Ahai. By having Lightbringer represent the 3 people who will act as a figurative weapon to destroy the white walkers, it explains why we have several strong candidates as "The Hero" figure. This also plays in nicely with the "dragon has Three Heads" Prophesy. Finally if we assume TPTWP is a seperate person and that some people in history have just confused the two then most theories about TPTWP can remain intact. It's also interesting because forging Lightbringer is linked to something dying in the proccess and 3 possibly 4 of these peoples mothers died in childbirth. As to how any of this would be revealed, Pyceel or varys might have heard word from his little birds, likely he'd think it was part of Aerys madness and may have even encouraged it. And even if all this turns out to be BS conjecture then at least I've pointed out that if it weren't for the Mad King, 3 of our heroes likely wouldn't exist. OK any Questions, comments or criticisms?

 

TL;DR - TPTWP and AA are separate people. The Mad King is Azor Ahai the man who forged the Lightbringer 3 times (water, lion, wife) in order to fight off White Walkers. The Twist is that AA's role isn't that of a warrior but a figurative Blacksmith who forges Lightbringer. Of course Lightbringer isn't a literal sword either but a figurative weapon representing 3 figures who will act as humanity's weapon against WW. Forging = putting a baby in someone.  Water = You have to read post , Lion = Tyrion's Mom, Azor's Wife = Dany's Mom

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Given what we hear Aerys saying about Robert "let him be king over bones and ashes" in Dany's HotU vision, I don't think he wanted to burn the city for dragonesque reasons.

 

You've got the order wrong on the women.  If Lyanna is the water, she has to be first.  The lion would have to be Joanna Lannister, making either the twins or Tyrion the result (Tyrion could be considered a "broken" sword I suppose).  All three of the Lannister kids are older than any child Lyanna might have had.  So that doesn't work either.

 

You get points for creativity, but with what we know of the series and the characters involved, I don't think this is a likely scenario.  Aerys was not born amidst smoke and salt while a red star bled, as far as we know--and he didn't wake any dragons from stone.  You have to remember that we are looking for Azor Ahai Reborn, not Azor Ahai original.  The original, if he ever lived at all, lived thousands of years before.  The reborn has to meet certain criteria, and Aerys did not...again that's as far as we know.  

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Thanks Lady and I agree with what you said about Lyanna and thats why Davos is my prefered choice for "Water" not Lyanna. I specifically mention that she doesn't fit the order and that I don't like her as "water" for several other reasons. I only named her because like I said at the start I wanted to explore this Idea fully even the more tin foil aspects. For Lyanna this meant asking why Aerys would station his 4 best Knights outside the tower of a dying woman instead of with himself or with Rhaegar on the trident.

 

Also Lady I believe you are mixing up aspects of TPTWP Prophsesy with Azor Ahai Reborn, Melisandra Does the same thing, but Aemon seems to see them as distinct as he asks specifically about TPTWP to Melisandra when she brings up stanis is azor ahai and then she makes it clear that she thinks the two are the same. But Aemon obviously doesn't otherwise or he wouldn't have asked that question because everyone knows she believes Stanis is Azor Ahai already. So who do I think got it right about whether TPTWP and Azor Ahai are the same or two different people ? Aemon or Melisandre? I'm going with Aemon on this, Melisandre makes on mistake after another.

 

So I think all these signs you mention are for TPTWP not Azor Ahai Reborn, but if you want smoke and salt I'll say aerys was "reborn" not "born as Azor Ahai during the tragedy at Summerhall.  Admist the smoke and tears there had been some dark sorcery performed and during this Aerys was possessed by the spirit of Azor Ahai slowly driving him mad. A madness he did not possess before this event driving him to do things. That last part about possession isn't really necessary for my theory because I see AAR job as forging the Lightbringer and I see these signs of his return belonging to TPTWP who I beleive Melisandra wrongly assumes is Azor Ahai and thus assumes the signs of TPTWP are also the signs of AAR

 

The wildfire Plot is just something else to consider, I'm sure you're right and it was just total madness on his part. I would like to note that Jamie specifically mentions that Aerys believes that he would not die in the fire and that he would actually emerge from it as a Giant Dragon that would crush his enemies. So I think burning the city so he can be transformed into A giant Dragon, while Insane, does qualify as Dragonesque reasons. I also wonder if he thought this was going to turn him into a massive dragon then was that his real motivation behind placing them everywhere in the first place and where the hell did he get the idea that this would work? Maybe a misreading of the same TPTWP prophesy that lead to summerhall? Its a question worth asking.

 

Anyways thanks you for reading and responding to my post, I wasn't sure if anyone would, I agree the likelihood of this is low. Especially because I think Melisandra is going to try to bring Stanis back to life by burning Shireen and call out the name Azor Ahai or something and Jon Snow is going to rise from the dead. But maybe she'll say TPTWP instead and this theory can live another day.

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 First he tempered his sword (a possible euphemism for privates?) by sticking it in "Water", we'll get back to who this was later.

 

 

That exact same euphemism was used by the lady who lost her maidenhead to Branden Stark!! Maybe you are on to something here....

 

I actually like Aerys (I also think Richard III is a great guy, so maybe I am just a pathological contrarian). He is always shown as an old man, but in reality he was 10 years younger than Tywin Lannister and was only in his mid-twenties during the defiance of Duskendale, assassinated at the age of 39!

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Yeah it's really tinfoily, maybe he isn't AAR but just wrongly thinks he is since he's crazy and so he tried to sleep with Joanna because she was a "lion". I also don't really like having to put forth Davos as ANOTHER secret Targ. Seems kind of ridiculous, like lets make everyone a secret Targ now. So personally if there is some truth to this I'd like for the order not to matter and for "Forging" not to require Aerys to personally sleep with the women but also take actions that would allow for someone else like his son to sleep with Lyanna. The fact that he married for the sake of giving birth to TPTWP would suggest that he saw himself as being an important figure in saving mankind and that his role in that was producing children and having his kids produce children. Rhaegar Mentions The song of Ice and Fire being linked to TPTWP, perhaps when Aerys was at Harrenhall they thought to themselves "Hey aren't we kind of like "fire" and its super cold in the north so the starks are kind of like "ice", Maybe that's what this whole TPTWP song of ice and fire is about! Hey Rhaegar you totally need to put a baby in that girl!" It sounds silly, but Aerys was a pretty crazy dude and really beleived in this TPTWP stuff and so did Rhaegar. In Dany's vision Rhaegar held Aegon and said to his wife that there has to be "ONE" more because the dragon needs 3 heads. Kind of suggesting he beleived it was his duty to produce one more kid and his wife was to ill to get the job done.

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Thanks Lady and I agree with what you said about Lyanna and thats why Davos is my prefered choice for "Water" not Lyanna. I specifically mention that she doesn't fit the order and that I don't like her as "water" for several other reasons. I only named her because like I said at the start I wanted to explore this Idea fully even the more tin foil aspects. For Lyanna this meant asking why Aerys would station his 4 best Knights outside the tower of a dying woman instead of with himself or with Rhaegar on the trident.

 

Also Lady I believe you are mixing up aspects of TPTWP Prophsesy with Azor Ahai Reborn, Melisandra Does the same thing, but Aemon seems to see them as distinct as he asks specifically about TPTWP to Melisandra when she brings up stanis is azor ahai and then she makes it clear that she thinks the two are the same. But Aemon obviously doesn't otherwise or he wouldn't have asked that question because everyone knows she believes Stanis is Azor Ahai already. So who do I think got it right about whether TPTWP and Azor Ahai are the same or two different people ? Aemon or Melisandre? I'm going with Aemon on this, Melisandre makes on mistake after another.

 

So I think all these signs you mention are for TPTWP not Azor Ahai Reborn, but if you want smoke and salt I'll say aerys was "reborn" not "born as Azor Ahai during the tragedy at Summerhall.  Admist the smoke and tears there had been some dark sorcery performed and during this Aerys was possessed by the spirit of Azor Ahai slowly driving him mad. A madness he did not possess before this event driving him to do things. That last part about possession isn't really necessary for my theory because I see AAR job as forging the Lightbringer and I see these signs of his return belonging to TPTWP who I beleive Melisandra wrongly assumes is Azor Ahai and thus assumes the signs of TPTWP are also the signs of AAR

 

The wildfire Plot is just something else to consider, I'm sure you're right and it was just total madness on his part. I would like to note that Jamie specifically mentions that Aerys believes that he would not die in the fire and that he would actually emerge from it as a Giant Dragon that would crush his enemies. So I think burning the city so he can be transformed into A giant Dragon, while Insane, does qualify as Dragonesque reasons. I also wonder if he thought this was going to turn him into a massive dragon then was that his real motivation behind placing them everywhere in the first place and where the hell did he get the idea that this would work? Maybe a misreading of the same TPTWP prophesy that lead to summerhall? Its a question worth asking.

 

Anyways thanks you for reading and responding to my post, I wasn't sure if anyone would, I agree the likelihood of this is low. Especially because I think Melisandra is going to try to bring Stanis back to life by burning Shireen and call out the name Azor Ahai or something and Jon Snow is going to rise from the dead. But maybe she'll say TPTWP instead and this theory can live another day.

Sorry, I seem to have missed that in the OP about Lyanna not really fitting.

 

Aerys didn't station his four best guards near the TOJ.  At first it was just Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent because they were the two who helped abduct Lyanna in the first place.  Then Gerold Hightower was sent by the king to fetch Rhaegar.  Rhaegar returned to King's Landing but ordered Hightower to stay.  So what we need to know is why Rhaegar thought it was appropriate to station the divine three KG there, and why they agreed that it was their main priority to obey that order.

 

No, I'm not mixing them up.

 

We have actual language from the Azor Ahai Reborn prophecy.  When the darkness gathers and the red star bleeds Azor Ahai shall be reborn amidst smoke and salt.  Moqorro also mentions the "dark eye" falling upon AAR.  The original Lightbringer was forged by Azor Ahai.  We have no indication that AAR will need to forge a sword, and Lightbringer may still exist.

 

TDtwP prophecy we actually have less of.  We know Rhaegar and company thought the comet was involved, we know that it has to be a Targaryen (whereas AAR does not) and a warrior and that he or she will come of Aerys and Rhaella's line.  The smoke and salt thing seems to apply as well, but honestly that could apply to almost anyone born in a medieval world.  And there's the bit about the dragon having three heads, which Mel never mentions for AAR, and which is exclusive to Targaryen history and imagery.

 

I see the two prophecies as potentially separate.  After all when Aemon asked about TDtwP and Mel said AAR he didn't correct her, but that could be because he didn't think it was worth it trying to school her on the differences.

 

Hard to say about Aerys.  He wouldn't be the first Targ to think he was an actual dragon and needed to be hatched.  Do you know about how Aerion "Brightflame" Targaryen died?  Same kind of crazy. A lot of people seemed to think that Rhaegar was TDtwP, but with Aerys being so nuts maybe he decided it was him instead of his son?  *shrug*  No way to know what all insanity was brewing in his twisted mind.  

 

Aerys didn't really go nuts until well after Summerhall.  So if there was any kind of possession going on, it must have been put on time-delay.

 

We actually don't know what happened to Summerhall.  The idea of a dragon hatching scheme is possible, but it could have just been a fire.

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Yeah thanks for this response. You bring up some good points. I'd like to start by explaining the logic behind this theory. Basically someone was telling me a theory about azor or lightbringer and how killinh lion represented a lannister. I realized that Grrms choice of a lion as the second attempt and the obvious connection to the lannister had to be intentional choice on his part. It's possible he intentionally placed it in there to throw people off into thinking it was lannister related like he's done with the perfumed senschel. But I don't think it is and I know that the story is about azor ahai and not aar. but I think he gave us that story for a reason and I've based my whole theory on that story and I admit that I've sort of ignored all the darkness, salt/smoke and bleeding stars stuff (I think its "stars bleed" not red star). But that's because it's pretty easy to shoe horn all that stuff in to any character. The forging of lightbringer is harder to shoehorn. Maybe this theory is trash, but I hope it makes people rethink their own AA theories and think beyond just salt smoke and red comets.

Also I still think it's possible red priests have wrongly just merged ptwp and aar into one prophesy. Aemon seems to think Mel is full of shit but then reveals he also bought into another brand of crazy prophesies. But maybe Aemon is just questioning stannis as aar.


I'm more open to the idea of the lightbringer and ptwp being the same person.

Yeah Summerhall is still a big mystery, the word sorcery has been applied to the events that went down and the idea that dragons were trying to be hatched. All this comes from people who were not there so who knows. But we do know that a child of the Forrest was there. And yeah aerys madness came long after Summerhall, so I would be suggesting that it was a slow possession. Basically it was fighting for control over aerys mind, so as long as aerys was in good spirits it couldn't really influence him. But it grew stronger as he grew weaker. It got its foothold in Summerhall but duskendale is where it made its advances. His extreme aging may have been a result of this mental battle for control.

Yeah I know about the many targ fire deaths. They all sound rather idiotic, until you consider dany burning herself Alibe and coming out with 3 dragons.



As your are probably aware I started a new thread to discuss the 3 kings guard issue and I'm happy to say that the responses added a lot of potential clarity. Hightowers decision to remain at the tower is still a little strange, because he does see himself as reporting to the king not rhaegar. So it's still strange that he would agree to rhaegar order if the king told him to return with rhaegar. Maybe rhaegar refuses to return unless he stayed but that'd a strange request when dayne alone would have been enough protection. Since I've moves away from lyanna as water I suppose it's not that important and I'm leaning back towards aerys having no involvement in the kidnapping. But it is interesting how the world of ice and fire described aerys when it came to the ridiculous degree he would go to insure his children were being protected. And station in 3 of the best kings guard does fit into that. But maybe rhaegar realized his father wasn't being paranoid and someone was poisoning targ chikdren.
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Yeah thanks for this response. You bring up some good points. I'd like to start by explaining the logic behind this theory. Basically someone was telling me a theory about azor or lightbringer and how killinh lion represented a lannister. I realized that Grrms choice of a lion as the second attempt and the obvious connection to the lannister had to be intentional choice on his part. It's possible he intentionally placed it in there to throw people off into thinking it was lannister related like he's done with the perfumed senschel. But I don't think it is and I know that the story is about azor ahai and not aar. but I think he gave us that story for a reason and I've based my whole theory on that story and I admit that I've sort of ignored all the darkness, salt/smoke and bleeding stars stuff (I think its "stars bleed" not red star). But that's because it's pretty easy to shoe horn all that stuff in to any character. The forging of lightbringer is harder to shoehorn. Maybe this theory is trash, but I hope it makes people rethink their own AA theories and think beyond just salt smoke and red comets.

Also I still think it's possible red priests have wrongly just merged ptwp and aar into one prophesy. Aemon seems to think Mel is full of shit but then reveals he also bought into another brand of crazy prophesies. But maybe Aemon is just questioning stannis as aar.


I'm more open to the idea of the lightbringer and ptwp being the same person.

Yeah Summerhall is still a big mystery, the word sorcery has been applied to the events that went down and the idea that dragons were trying to be hatched. All this comes from people who were not there so who knows. But we do know that a child of the Forrest was there. And yeah aerys madness came long after Summerhall, so I would be suggesting that it was a slow possession. Basically it was fighting for control over aerys mind, so as long as aerys was in good spirits it couldn't really influence him. But it grew stronger as he grew weaker. It got its foothold in Summerhall but duskendale is where it made its advances. His extreme aging may have been a result of this mental battle for control.

Yeah I know about the many targ fire deaths. They all sound rather idiotic, until you consider dany burning herself Alibe and coming out with 3 dragons.



As your are probably aware I started a new thread to discuss the 3 kings guard issue and I'm happy to say that the responses added a lot of potential clarity. Hightowers decision to remain at the tower is still a little strange, because he does see himself as reporting to the king not rhaegar. So it's still strange that he would agree to rhaegar order if the king told him to return with rhaegar. Maybe rhaegar refuses to return unless he stayed but that'd a strange request when dayne alone would have been enough protection. Since I've moves away from lyanna as water I suppose it's not that important and I'm leaning back towards aerys having no involvement in the kidnapping. But it is interesting how the world of ice and fire described aerys when it came to the ridiculous degree he would go to insure his children were being protected. And station in 3 of the best kings guard does fit into that. But maybe rhaegar realized his father wasn't being paranoid and someone was poisoning targ chikdren.

No it's actually "the red star bleeds" which could refer to the comet or could refer to Arthur Dayne (from STARfall and supporting the RED dragons) dying while Lyanna gave birth.

 

You are right that a lot of people ignore the forging part, but that might be because they expect that LB either still exists and thus doesn't need forging, or isn't an actual sword anyway in which case the forging could be very different from what we might expect.  However, it still makes a lot more sense that someone still alive would be ARR, than someone who died before the series began....unless GRRM is going for maximum drama having had the hero they need killed decades ago.  THAT would be a great twist!

 

Aemon seems to be specifically thinking that Mel is wrong about Stannis.  I wouldn't call the prophecy he believes in to be crazy.  His family only survived the Doom of Valyria because of a prophetic dream had by one of their own.  Then there was Jenny of Oldstones' friend the Woods Witch who confirmed TDtwP by saying he or she would come of Aerys and Rhaella's line.  In a series where prophecies, dreams, and fortunes end up true, we should be careful about dismissing any of them as crazy.

 

Rhaegar's children don't seem to have been poisoned so I'm not sure that played into his logic with regard to ordering Hightower, Whent, and Dayne to guard Lyanna.  But I'm hoping we find out a lot more about all of that in TWoW.

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Props to the OP.

I had a very similar theory I poasted on these boards a while back that got hated on pretty hard, so I wanted to show my support because if nothing else this is a fun one to think about.

My only substantial difference was I proposed a different 'water' forge. Although I didn't think of Davos so...

What about Patchface? Now bear with me here. The war of the Nine Penny Kings was before the Mad King took the Iorn Throne and during the brief reign of his weak father after Summerhall. The Mad King fought in the war with his best boys Tywin Lannister and Stephon Baratheon. Also, as you noted he is well known for sleeping around. I propose that Stephon wasn't sent to the free cities to look for a bride for Rheagar but to get pick up his bastard brother, the clever fool boy. Unfortunately he ends up broken after a watery dip.

Just a few more short points:
Does this imply Rheagar was a bastard, cause I'd like that...
Does Azor Ahai translate to Mad King?

Finally, sorry for typos I'm on a phone, and all hail Sallador Saan high prophet of Starry Wisdom!
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I also wonder if he thought this was going to turn him into a massive dragon then was that his real motivation behind placing them everywhere in the first place and where the hell did he get the idea that this would work?

We're told that the prototypical example of "Targaryen folly" is Aerion believing he was a literal dragon in disguise and drinking wildfire to transform himself. So this idea is hardly unique to Aerys. Given a family whose magical blood gives them dragon dreams, and who are raised to think of themselves as metaphorical dragons, it's not hard to understand why the ones who go crazy sometimes have this particular crazy idea.
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