Heresy 175

[Reposado]

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1nel9j/spoilers_all_using_part_of_grrms_inspiration_to/

 

This just blew my mind... GRRM's ASOIAF is a rip-off... A rip-off of a book that is not available in Audiobook format, which means that I will not be partaking in this piece of literature... (double & triple tasking is not possible when reading real books)...

 

it's really not that similar. you could purposefully create synopsis for a lot of books to make them sound similar.

 

i've read ms &t and grrm didnt take any more from that than he did from lotr and he took a lot less than he did from real history.

 

 

affc detractors (i'm not one)might say that he stole the idea of having a completely boring middle book but.....seriously. the entirety of book 2 of ms&t could have been replaced by about two chapters at the beginning of book 3.(the first half of which was almost equally as boring.)

 

yeah, there are some similarities, but it is very surface level. and calling anything that happens in osten ard a political power struggle is very very generous

[Black Crow]

I agree that the exact ways the trees were destroyed are not clear. My main point is that Lannisters, Gardeners and Hightowers were not forced to abandon the Old Gods, they choose too. They remained in power, yet they didn't enforce the Pact in their lands. I see this as evidence that they broke the Pact.

 

In one sense I think that's taking it too far, but it illustrates my own point about indifference. The Pact was disregarded rather than deliberately broken. I'm reminded here of a 17th century minister of the kirk who lamented that the officers commanding the Scots Army of the Covenant in the 1640s, far from being the zealots expected, "had no inclination to religion except in so far as the times and the state who employed them seemed to favour it." Only a few families held to the old gods and it is those few who are still connected with the Old Gods. The Pact is effectively dead rather than broken.

[Matthew.]

 

it's really not that similar. you could purposefully create synopsis for a lot of books to make them sound similar.

 

i've read ms &t and grrm didnt take any more from that than he did from lotr and he took a lot less than he did from real history.

 

 

affc detractors (i'm not one)might say that he stole the idea of having a completely boring middle book but.....seriously. the entirety of book 2 of ms&t could have been replaced by about two chapters at the beginning of book 3.(the first half of which was almost equally as boring.)

 

yeah, there are some similarities, but it is very surface level. and calling anything that happens in osten ard a political power struggle is very very generous

Some of those similarities come down to the fact that GRRM and Williams were both taking a lot of inspiration from Celtic mythology, so of course there will be some overlap.

That said, there are some instances where I think the similarities are more than superficial. It's been over a decade since I read MST, but my recollection is that King Elias has a lot in common with Stannis; he betrays his brother, he falls under the influence of a Red Priest, and he becomes a shell of himself over the coarse of the series as his vitality is drained by his sword.

And the similarities between the Sithi and the CotF are strong as well. They're the first residents of Osten Ard, living there for thousands of years before they encounter human shepherds crossing over on a land bridge--with whom they have friendly relations. Later, a second group of humans arrives via ships, bearing weapons of iron, and engages in a genocide of the Sithi, who are forced to go into hiding in the deep forests. More than a little similar, but again, this likely comes down to the fact that GRRM and Williams are taking inspiration from the Invasion Myths of Ireland.

I can understand why people compare the two, because I first read both series at roughly the same time, and my gut reaction was also that, in GRRM world, Others = Norns and CotF = Sithi.

[Mother of Dragons]

Or the horn is too high pitched for Jon to hear & he only thought that it didn't work...
 
I can't think of any other reason that GRRM would have said:
 
"When the singer reached the part in 'The Night that Ended', where the Night's Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking"
 
Why include the line about the dogs barking if he was not saying that the horn was high pitched???

I wasn't suggesting it wasn't, but the dogs were barking when they heard the horn with sound- which I didn't think about until you pointed it out. Recall that before all this, Ghost is getting spooked by the fist as well, he doesn't seem to want to enter the ring wall. And that happens before they find the cache.

Does Mance show Jon the horn of Joramun, or does Ygritte just tell Jon they found it?

[Black Crow]

Ygritte tells him they didn't find it. There's the one Melisandre burned of course but there seemed to be agreement that it was a fake.

[Tucu]

Someone mention on another thread this line from Coter Pyke:

"Sam the Slayer!" he said, by way of greeting. "Are you sure you stabbed an Other, and not some child's snow knight?"

 

Real hint at the nature of the WW Sam killed (a CoTF ice knight) or just proof that 5 years between books is too long?

 

Edit: Nevermind, I just found a discussion in Heresy 168

[Lord Ravenstark]

Quick question: what do we know about the Lord of Hell of the Faith of the Seven?

[Reposado]

That said, there are some instances where I think the similarities are more than superficial. It's been over a decade since I read MST, but my recollection is that King Elias has a lot in common with Stannis; he betrays his brother, he falls under the influence of a Red Priest, and he becomes a shell of himself over the coarse of the series as his vitality is drained by his sword.

 

 

i thought about mentioning that. but it is as if the stannis/renly conflict was all there was to westeros. 

[Black Crow]

Quick question: what do we know about the Lord of Hell of the Faith of the Seven?

 

Not a lot; I have a recollection of some mention being made of a hell for each of the Seven, but there's not really much said at all.

[Lord Ravenstark]

 
Not a lot; I have a recollection of some mention being made of a hell for each of the Seven, but there's not really much said at all.

If I remember correctly, Tywin's grandmother, the wife of Gerold Lannister, the Red Widow Rohanne Webber was accused to be a witch who sold unborn babies to the Lord of the Seven Hells. Of her being a witch is highly doubtful, but it brings the theological aspect of a single lord for the Seven Hells. Apparently, he can teach people black magic. But that is all, I believe, we know about him.

[Mace Cooterian]

 

In one sense I think that's taking it too far, but it illustrates my own point about indifference. The Pact was disregarded rather than deliberately broken. I'm reminded here of a 17th century minister of the kirk who lamented that the officers commanding the Scots Army of the Covenant in the 1640s, far from being the zealots expected, "had no inclination to religion except in so far as the times and the state who employed them seemed to favour it." Only a few families held to the old gods and it is those few who are still connected with the Old Gods. The Pact is effectively dead rather than broken.

 

Do we chalk this up to the demise of the First Men by the Andals and then the Andals by the Rhoynar?  

 

On the other hand, could it not be said that those families who chose to let the Pact die; effectively broke it?  At least in the eyes of the Old Gods.

[addicted to snow]

I wasn't suggesting it wasn't, but the dogs were barking when they heard the horn with sound- which I didn't think about until you pointed it out. Recall that before all this, Ghost is getting spooked by the fist as well, he doesn't seem to want to enter the ring wall. And that happens before they find the cache.

Does Mance show Jon the horn of Joramun, or does Ygritte just tell Jon they found it?

 

I never understood why ghost acts strange at the fist... there is a theory that there is some kind of warding on the ring fort, but I never really bought into that... Ghost nor Summer have any problems when crossing the warding at the wall...

[Mother of Dragons]

I never understood why ghost acts strange at the fist... there is a theory that there is some kind of warding on the ring fort, but I never really bought into that... Ghost nor Summer have any problems when crossing the warding at the wall...

I don't know, I was thinking Coldhands was near or something, and Ghost sensed him before CHs showed him the cache- if it was Coldhands who placed it there and had Ghost find Jon. Ever wonder whose cloak? I mean like if someone was killed to hide their cloak with the arrows?

Also, not sure if it's related, but two chapters later, Jon has his first wolf dream. Something is going on to foster the bonding/warging relationship. That's why Jon sensed Ghost's discomfort earlier, and probably how he knew he was supposed to follow him. Here's the dream from Jon VII:

When he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves.
There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.

I didn't quote the whole dream, but we learn later Bran is trying to talk through the weirwood. Also a reason why I think we may find later that Bran had a hand in Jon & Ghost's discovery of the cache.

[Black Crow]

 

Do we chalk this up to the demise of the First Men by the Andals and then the Andals by the Rhoynar?  

 

On the other hand, could it not be said that those families who chose to let the Pact die; effectively broke it?  At least in the eyes of the Old Gods.

 

Essentially that's what I'm saying. Its not necessary for someone to wake up some morning, with or without a hangover, and declare "sod this for a game of soldiers I'm going out to cut down a weirwood" in order for the Pact to be broken. Like all pacts it only holds so long as people believe in it. The good people of Westeros, whether First Men, Andals, Rhoynar or anybody else no longer consider it necessary to hold by the Old Gods. A lot of them might still go through the motions, but supposedly its 300 years since somebody last decorated a weirwood with human entrails. There are just a few families still linked, but while they are descended from First Men that's a very very long way from the original Pact between the Children and First Men still holding. The Starks demonstrated that long ago.

[Black Crow]

 

I never understood why ghost acts strange at the fist... there is a theory that there is some kind of warding on the ring fort, but I never really bought into that... Ghost nor Summer have any problems when crossing the warding at the wall...

 

It may depend on who placed the wards. Jon as we know was completely unable to lead, push or drag Ghost through the circle, but later something changed because to his surprise there he was sitting by a fire.

 

Our problem, obviously, is that we don't know what happened in the meantime. Its possible that somehow the wards were inadvertently broken but I really can't think of anything happening in the text that may later turn out to be the cause - especially as Jon and Sam are effectively now the last survivors.

 

All I can come up with myself is that cache of dragonglass. Not a direct cause but rather that someone met Ghost in the forest, showed him where the stuff was stowed and then gave him a free pass through the wards so that he could fetch Jon.

 

And if anybody has a better idea lets hear it.

[Regular John Umber]

It may depend on who placed the wards. Jon as we know was completely unable to lead, push or drag Ghost through the circle, but later something changed because to his surprise there he was sitting by a fire.
 
Our problem, obviously, is that we don't know what happened in the meantime. Its possible that somehow the wards were inadvertently broken but I really can't think of anything happening in the text that may later turn out to be the cause - especially as Jon and Sam are effectively now the last survivors.
 
All I can come up with myself is that cache of dragonglass. Not a direct cause but rather that someone met Ghost in the forest, showed him where the stuff was stowed and then gave him a free pass through the wards so that he could fetch Jon.
 
And if anybody has a better idea lets hear it.

Interesting... I wonder if the dragonglass was the warding? Where specifically was it found?

[Black Crow]

Buried deep in the forest below, not on the Fist at all. 

 

Essentially the sequence of events was that the rangers arrived at the Fist and started digging in on the top. However Ghost refused to enter the circle and ran off back down into the forest below.

 

Some time later Jon discovers Ghost inside the circle and then follows him down and into the Forest where Ghost takes him straight to the buried cache.

 

In other words sometime between his refusing to enter the circle and then coming inside, Ghost has discovered or been shown the cache and afterwards has no difficulty in entering the circle in order to lead Jon to it.

 

Reviewing it in this way I'm now inclined to agree with ATS and that there probably isn't or wasn't a ward protecting the circle. Instead Ghost's initial refusal may not have been because he couldn't enter it, but because he was being summoned by someone or something down in the forest below. After all, as soon as Jon stopped trying to drag him in he didn't hang about looking unhappy but shot away back down the hill.

[Bran the Bringer]

Buried deep in the forest below, not on the Fist at all. 

 

Essentially the sequence of events was that the rangers arrived at the Fist and started digging in on the top. However Ghost refused to enter the circle and ran off back down into the forest below.

 

Some time later Jon discovers Ghost inside the circle and then follows him down and into the Forest where Ghost takes him straight to the buried cache.

 

In other words sometime between his refusing to enter the circle and then coming inside, Ghost has discovered or been shown the cache and afterwards has no difficulty in entering the circle in order to lead Jon to it.

 

Reviewing it in this way I'm now inclined to agree with ATS and that there probably isn't or wasn't a ward protecting the circle. Instead Ghost's initial refusal may not have been because he couldn't enter it, but because he was being summoned by someone or something down in the forest below. After all, as soon as Jon stopped trying to drag him in he didn't hang about looking unhappy but shot away back down the hill.

Possibly Bran or BR?

Or did you have a different character in mind?

[Black Crow]

Possibly Bran or BR?

Or did you have a different character in mind?

 

No real view on the matter. What complicates it a little is the question of whether Ghost was summoned by somebody standing in the trees at the bottom, who then showed Ghost where the stuff was buried and then told "go fetch Jon" or whether he was warged by a third party. I'm not keen on the second option since that would cut across what appears to be a very personal relationship between warg and wolf. [yes it has been cut a couple of times but that's not the same thing], so I'm more inclined to suspect being summoned to a meeting - in which case the most likely character is Coldhands, who may - or may not - be Bloodraven's bag man.

[TheMiddleHero]

Having just read Bran I in ASoS again, has there been much talk about that chapter?

 

Get a strange feeling that the whole wolfpack vs Summer fight over the deer (with the greying alpha) and the discussion with the Reeds... along with Bran's thoughts afterward,... well basically the whole chapter seems significant. Was going to throw some quotes out, but then I basically wanted to start quoting the whole chapter.

 

Is it the beers I just had? Or some foreshadowing?