Lady Dyanna Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 I never did either!! I was thinking of the conversation here about the NW and the ringfort, I guess. I pick up new things every read. Here's the passage, even Robb's manner of death is foreshadowed, with multiple wounds (he was stabbed a few times, right?). Ned's mom isn't in the vision, either, but I took that to mean she didn't have a violent death: Now, my only question is, if everyone there is dead, then why is Theon there? Just as a symbolic witness? As a manifestation of his guilty conscience or of a passive death wish? A bit of foreshadowing of either his actual death or the symbolic death of "Theon Greyjoy?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 So if Theon is only seeing violent deaths and he hasn't seen Benjen's it can only mean....... he tripped over some damnable nephew's overexcited direwolf and fell into the Milkwater, froze up fast and floated downstream? Sorry I don't know what came over me back to your regularly scheduled Heresy. :rofl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSmallOther Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Well, Hodor anyway. Hate seeing poor Hodor cowering in his own mind. Is Hodor just going to end up Bran's appendage? I hope GRRM gave name of Norse god to him for a reason :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSmallOther Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Yeah--the reactions by Quorin and Craster and Mance--all different, but they all know about the Starks. Seems like a lot more than just "old powerful family." I do think Benjen knows Jon's parents, but doubt very much he told anyone. The horn? I waffle on the horn and whether or not it's a metaphor. There are horns sought, horns found. But no on seems to be looking for the weapon of the last hero or for light bringer. The contrary nature of my brain makes me wonder if the idea of the magical sword (i.e.: "Dawn") might be real vs. the horn. But it would be interesting if they had the horn the whole time. In an ice cell. Or the Nightfort. And it would be useful to have such horn for NW as a last resort. Assume you have big final battle at the premises of the Wall. With the Wall being such a huge object, destroying it would definitely finish the battle with both fighting sides cleared from the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 10, 2015 Author Share Posted August 10, 2015 Ok. I get that you think that Craster and his family are safe. What I'm not sure I'm understanding is why do you feel this way? How exactly do you think that the CotF can go about keeping him or other true friends such as the Crannogmen safe? Will the CotF provide a dome to keep out the cold? Will Coldhands provide home delivery of fuel and supplies? Do they get their own personal WW guardian to protect them from the wights and other people searching for supplies? I'm not trying to be difficult. I just want to understand how you see the CotF being able to keep this select group safe. Of are you trying to say that they just don't matter? Winters are hard on everybody but even the Long Night was survivable - even in the North, otherwise we wouldn't be having this story. Craster knew that because he was right with the gods all he had to do was sit it out and that when his boys came knocking it was only to see their old Dad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 10, 2015 Author Share Posted August 10, 2015 On Dany's vision--have been sort of having this discussion over on RLJ (been too busy to post more than erratically). Really think that the vision is Rhaegar in the moment. Like it shows Aerys in a moment in time. And Dany running to the red door. And Silver, etc. If the vision is "in the moment"--guess you can read it as Rhaegar thinks he need another child--but he actually just says "another." I always read it that his "there must be another" was literally "looking at you kid" And just by way of throwing a little spanner into the works, do we actually know that there must be three heads of the dragon above ground at the same time. Whether or not Azor Ahai, The Prince that was Promised [or anybody else] are one and the same and whether or not the dragon is male or female, we're talking here about a chosen one not three musketeers. Are the three therefore to appear in succession, or if together are they to be the three musketeers to Azor Ahai's D'Artagnan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Yes, I meant Benjen wasn't killed by the Others, but probably abducted. As for Qhorin, I think he mentioned Jon's lineage twice- the second time he refers to it as the blood of Winterfell, which I found odd vs calling him Stark. Maybe Qhorin knew something, maybe Benjen knows the truth about Jon. He would serve as a vehicle to tell Jon if he shows up later. Also, in the NW vow, something I wondered about when Qhorin and Jon say it together one last time, is the line about being "the horn that wakes the sleepers". Qhorin told Stonesnake to let Mormont know the old powers have awoken. I wonder if the horn in the vows is supposed to be Joramund. Wouldn't it be something if the NW had it all this time? I agree, this is an interesting choice of words - "Blood of Winterfell"... I am reminded of Ned Starks thoughts [paraphrased]: "& Eddard Stark dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell"... The Frozen Hell (See Footnote 1) @ the Heart Of Winter is not reserved for All Starks... The Starks of Karhold are not invited, only the Lords of Winterfell... The Irony is that Jon Snow is most definitely not 'Blood of Winterfell'... -- In the coming book, I fully expect to see Ghost/Jon physically visit the Heart of Winter. I expect that Ghost/Jon (& the reader) will be shed some knowledge regarding the Other - Stark relationship. Ghost/Jon will interact with the inhabitants, most likely Benjin (who is/was the Stark in Winterfell for a time during Roberto's Rebellion)... Jon, on the other hand, is not a Stark. He has never served as 'The Stark in Winterfell'. Thus, Jon is not invited to Ned's Frozen Hell (how disappointing). Much like Jon's dreams of Winterfell's Crypts, Jon will not be accepted in the Heart of Winter - it is not his place... The revelations that Jon receives @ the Heart Of Winter will be very troubling... These revelations will be the beginning of Jon's downward spiral into total corruption... Jon is a Bastard, he is an outcast everywhere he goes... Outcast from the Living Starks, Outcast from the Wildings, Outcast from the Nights Watch, Outcast in his dreams, Outcast from the Starks @ the heart of Winter... This is the seed that will flourish & drive Jon's complete & utter moral downfall... Sharing a body with Ghost will result in Jon's personality & temperament being far more animalistic... Jon will have to have some sort of altercation with whatever remains of Varamyr-six-skins... This is how Jon will instantly gain the knowledge necessary to be the most powerful warg ever. After this altercation (however it happens), Jon's POV's will be highlighted with Varamyr's thoughts, Varamyr's Will, Varamyr's view of women, Varamyr's longing to see the green lands to the south... I predict the word "Abomination" to be the most used word in 2nd half of TWOW... By the time Jon returns from the Heart of Winter & stumbles into the Bran Cave, Jon's animalistic nature will lead to him eating Jojen Reed (as foreshadowed in AKOKs) and taking Hodor's skin... Somehow, Jon will be corrupted by Varamyr - who may have already found a means of taking Hodor (I don't know how this will happen, only that it will, GRRM gave us far too much information on Varamyr for him not to be a significant character in the coming books). So Jon will gain human form again, just as Mel suggested... Only now he have the strongest body in Westeros... He will have a new, animalistic behavior... He will be corrupted by the thoughts & will of Varamy-six-skins. On top of this, he will be the most powerful warg in existence... He will begin collecting skins, human skins, binding them to his will... He will commit countless atrocities - rape, murder, and worse... He will amass a great army of people who are totally bound to his will... GRRM loves to write about Hive-Minds... Black Crow has suggested that Bran & the CotF are the Hive-Minded beings in this tale, but he is only partially correct... Jon Snow & collected human skins will be the more prominent Hive-Mind that we read about... Jon Snow is the Night's King... -- Footnote 1: I interpret "Frozen Hell" to mean:: A huge outdoor rave... lots of blow, lots of ecstasy, strobe lights, glow sticks, and that song "Sandstorm" by Darude Note: I've never been to a rave, but I'm pretty sure that they play that song at all of them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 10, 2015 Author Share Posted August 10, 2015 But, as far as I am aware, no one ever states that the FM accepting the Old Gods of the CotF is part of the pact at all. It's stated that it divided territories between them and protected the weirwood trees. The FM accepting the Gods of the CotF was only a side effect based on the success of the pact. Why then, would it be seen as breaking the pact that the FM were no longer sacrificing to the trees. This was never part of the pact in the first place. I was saying that largely in response to Voice's roseate insistence that the Pact still holds between the Children and the First Men. It doesn't. Weirwoods have been cut down and burned by men and while Leaf distinguishes between the different old races living and dead she talks only of the realms of Men without making any such distinction. The latter, whether First Men, Andals or anybody else have broken the Pact and although some may still go through the motions, they are unredeemed by any meaningful worship of the old gods. And that's why the business of the Starks and Winterfell may be so important, and why Qhorin speaks of the gods of the First Men - and of the Starks. Because somehow the Starks do still belong to the Old Gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Nah, at some point we're going to learn how Walder became Hodor and it probably isn't going to be pretty. He might even bite. Any other hints? Just curious as to what you are envisioning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 10, 2015 Author Share Posted August 10, 2015 I really don't know. Old Nan tells us he is really called Walder and we know that early on he was terrified of the crypts and refused point blank to go down there. Its therefore been speculated that as a boy he'd gone down there, perhaps down into those forbidden lower levels and there encountered something that went bump in the night - and that at some point we're going to find out what it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Winters are hard on everybody but even the Long Night was survivable - even in the North, otherwise we wouldn't be having this story. Craster knew that because he was right with the gods all he had to do was sit it out and that when his boys came knocking it was only to see their old Dad. Okay. Thanks. Although I'm not sure that I agree 100% with this, I do agree that it's possible. It just seems like there's a big chance that outside trouble may just come knocking. For example, do the wights really know enough to understand keep away? At the very least, I can make sense of where you're coming from now. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 I was saying that largely in response to Voice's roseate insistence that the Pact still holds between the Children and the First Men. It doesn't. Weirwoods have been cut down and burned by men and while Leaf distinguishes between the different old races living and dead she talks only of the realms of Men without making any such distinction. The latter, whether First Men, Andals or anybody else have broken the Pact and although some may still go through the motions, they are unredeemed by any meaningful worship of the old gods. And that's why the business of the Starks and Winterfell may be so important, and why Qhorin speaks of the gods of the First Men - and of the Starks. Because somehow the Starks do still belong to the Old Gods.I wholeheartedly agree that the Starks are going to wind up being exceptionally important. I also agree that it is more than possible that the CotF see the pact as broken. I'm just not certain that the evidence is there to point to the CotF feeling this way without doubt. I think that there's only one point we might be truly disagreeing upon. You seem to be pretty certain that the CotF themselves are the masterminds behind it all. Although I believe that this is possible, I tend to wonder if it might not be humans, the Starks in particular who have created all of the problems by misusing the magics taught to them by the CotF. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 I really don't know. Old Nan tells us he is really called Walder and we know that early on he was terrified of the crypts and refused point blank to go down there. Its therefore been speculated that as a boy he'd gone down there, perhaps down into those forbidden lower levels and there encountered something that went bump in the night - and that at some point we're going to find out what it was. Interesting. Never thought about it like that. I think that I always just assumed that Hodor being unwilling to go into the crypts was a one time occurrence. But I'm all for anything that might be able to give us additional information. I tried fitting him into the Norse mythology grid, but the only thing that I came up with was Odin's mute son that kills Fenrir. I'm not really sure that I like that angle though. Hodor killing Bran would pretty much suck. Besides, then we'd probably never find out why all he ever says is Hodor. Can't really see him fitting into the Hodr role either. Who would be his Baldr? Guess we'll just have to wait till WoW to find more of it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Winters are hard on everybody but even the Long Night was survivable - even in the North, otherwise we wouldn't be having this story. Craster knew that because he was right with the gods all he had to do was sit it out and that when his boys came knocking it was only to see their old Dad. I go back & forth on whether or not Craster truly thought that he was 'right with the gods'... Or whether that was something that he made up... I'm sticking with my idea that Craster's Character was based on David Koresh, with his wives being GRRM's version of the Branch Davidians... In order for this relationship to be correct, then Craster had to be making it all up... The whole story of the "Cold Gods" & "Being right with the gods" was just a means of making the women think that they had to stay or die... -- Being from Whitetree, Craster would more than likely have gained knowledge of the religious order that Val is a member of... He would know that they dress in all white clothing & that they collect things to sacrifice to the great Weirwood in Whitetree... Craster simply Isolated his wives to ensure that they were uneducated, ignorant, and superstitious... Then he started leaving sacrifices for members of Val's order to collect & told his wives that he was leaving the sons for 'The Others'... Being totally isolated & ignorant on the subject at hand, they had no reason not to believe him... -- The books offer zero hard evidence to support that Craster was associated with The Others. The claim made by Gully that she had seen the "Cold Gods" is clearly bad information because we see first hand what she was calling "The Others" in Image 6 at the link below (From the Illustrated version of ACOKs)... These Figures are clearly not The Others that we met in the Prologue of AGOTs... http://www.richardhescox.com/a-clash-of-kings-gallery.php Furthermore, Image 1 found that the link above, shows what the far more likely end was Craster's sons as well as Craster's sheep. *It should be noted that GRRM worked very closely with Richard Hescox, the illustrator, to get these illustrations just like GRRM wanted them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 10, 2015 Author Share Posted August 10, 2015 I don't know,it seems like a severe break in continuity.I mean everyone shows up how they die,but just "hers" is symbolic? I'm not doubting there's some degree of symbolism i think in the entire scene ,but i think there's a subtly there in how she died.Especially when taken with Ned's dream of her statue weeping blood the picture becomes more clear to me that she wronged and possibly that wrong led to her death somehow. The point I'm making is that if all of this comes from her running off with the raggle-taggle gipsy oh, why isn't she presiding over the feast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 10, 2015 Author Share Posted August 10, 2015 Okay. Thanks. Although I'm not sure that I agree 100% with this, I do agree that it's possible. It just seems like there's a big chance that outside trouble may just come knocking. For example, do the wights really know enough to understand keep away? At the very least, I can make sense of where you're coming from now. :cheers: The animal skulls at the gate suggest that there might be some kind of warding in place, and Craster clearly believes that he and his are safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 10, 2015 Author Share Posted August 10, 2015 As its gone quiet for a moment this seems like a good time to close down Heresy 175 and open up Heresy 176 - see you over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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