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Heresy 175


Black Crow

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Quite. If you're loking for a good read you might want to try Brian DeLay's War of a Thousand Deserts about how the Comanche depopulated Northern Mexico and doomed themselves in the process. Certainly not innocent victims. There may not have been deliberate genocide involved but very much what we used to call in the army Mind over Matter: We don't mind and you don't matter.

 

 

Sounds like a good read too, been stuck in too much fiction for a while.

 

Have to say though, that I float about in my thinking as to whether the Children are directly behind the possible arriving Long Night. Indirectly influenced someone else into a triggering of it. Or just knew it was coming, know how to avoid it, gathered some resources and are going to bunker down and see where the cards fall.

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The scene I mostly think of is when Bran sees all of the Singers in the roots. They all look dead, but their eyes follow him. And one moves his/her (can't remember which) mouth as if trying to talk to Bran.
 
Reminds me of the description of the Undying when Dany finds them despite the illusions. They follow her with their eyes, seem like they can't move, but keep whispering. The scenes seem similar.
 
Throw in the unique trees (black bark/blue leaves in Qarth and wierwoods in North), the partaking of substances, the visions, the drawing in of both Dany and Bran (different methods, but still, both drawn in)--not saying this is definitive. But I think there's at least a chance that there's a parallel here.


I mentioned this before at the end of the last thread, but I think it was lost in the shuffle... There are definitely some parallels between the two, but I wonder if the intent is more to contrast the differences between them rather than compare. For example, the magics in the weirwood cave can be seen as coming from nature, whereas in the HOTU the magics are manmade. The weirwoods are actually sustaining BR whereas the HOTU is looking to take another's life force. The HotU is using glamour throughout until the last scene to entice Dany with its beauty. The cave is clearly not hiding anything. A corrupted heart sustains the undying, whereas the CotF do not look to extend their lives to full immortality, but give themselves back to nature and the trees. It may not look pretty, but nature seldom is.
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I'm not sure that in the end the differences are there. The House of the Undying at first looked pretty good and full of beautiful people before Danaerys saw behind the glamour. Bran was likewise decoyed and beguiled by the Crow until he was brought into the cave and saw the reality just as Danaerys did. Then, while the weirwoods are keeping Bloodraven alive the singers admit that its long after his time. Is Bloodraven aware of his physical degeneration and is he now welcoming Bran not as an assistant in his taking over the world, but because Bran's coming means that he can be allowed to die at last?

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Parallels between Westeros and Essos are always interesting to see. There might be similarities between greenseers/cotf and warlocks in HOTU. What bothers me is missing Others' equivalent. Ice demons, Sidhe, you name it. But there is almost nothing for eastern part of Planetos. We have one demon mentioned in Essos (see Varys castration story) but I think that is about it in ASOIAF. World book mentions some godly figure (Night's Lion) and his demons, coming of which started Long Night in Essos (and of course, same time in Westeros) and these may be related in one way or another to our beloved white walkers, although details of relationship are not clear.

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This could work, yes. All the Singers in the trees with BR as "the" Greenseer--maybe it's all a group effort with a key human greenseer as the power base. Not exactly sure what the Undying want with Dany other than her life force--but seems like she might have been in a bad way if she'd stayed. And seems like the Undying are all working together to project visions and illusions.

 

Does that mean the house of the Undying is exactly like the cave of skulls? Don't think so. But that image of the silent, still, whispering, almost dead creatures following Dany and then Bran with their eyes--that image is sticking in my head for some reason. For now, Im not sure what to do with it. But it's interesting--at least to me.

 

Agree with the point regarding Dany. The question is if Bran will end up badly, since he happened to stay in the cave. Will he turn to the dark side of the force or will he save humanity?

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Given the business in the synopsis Bran being drawn to magic for magic's sake and of Maester and Greenseer working together, I'd say that Bran is first going over to the dark side and then going to remember that he is a Stark of Winterfell. Bit of a Darth Vader thing and probably going to end the same way.

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Given the business in the synopsis Bran being drawn to magic for magic's sake and of Maester and Greenseer working together, I'd say that Bran is first going over to the dark side and then going to remember that he is a Stark of Winterfell. Bit of a Darth Vader thing and probably going to end the same way.

 

 

 Yeah, I think a lot of the end game will be people 'remembering who they are'; Dany will remember (or already has remembered) that she is a dragon lord; The Starks will remember that they are Wolves, etc.

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I mentioned this before at the end of the last thread, but I think it was lost in the shuffle... There are definitely some parallels between the two, but I wonder if the intent is more to contrast the differences between them rather than compare. For example, the magics in the weirwood cave can be seen as coming from nature, whereas in the HOTU the magics are manmade. The weirwoods are actually sustaining BR whereas the HOTU is looking to take another's life force. The HotU is using glamour throughout until the last scene to entice Dany with its beauty. The cave is clearly not hiding anything. A corrupted heart sustains the undying, whereas the CotF do not look to extend their lives to full immortality, but give themselves back to nature and the trees. It may not look pretty, but nature seldom is.

 

I guess this would seem to echo Maester Aemon's "fire consumes, ice preserves" statement. Bloodraven definitely was preserved, and the Undying desired to consume Dany.

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 Yeah, I think a lot of the end game will be people 'remembering who they are'; Dany will remember (or already has remembered) that she is a dragon lord; The Starks will remember that they are Wolves, etc.

 

Seems likely. A working title for the 7th book was a Time of Wolves.  With the return of magic, dragons, and the others perhaps some light will shine on forgotten histories of Planetos.

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If you study Susquehanna culture/language, I have a hunch you will find no word or concept for genocide or extermination. It simply isn't an idea that can be reconciled with indigenous belief systems, let alone religions, laws, and governmental structures.

Might I ask what "slim chances" you are referencing?

there was no word in english either until the 20th century. 

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I mentioned this before at the end of the last thread, but I think it was lost in the shuffle... There are definitely some parallels between the two, but I wonder if the intent is more to contrast the differences between them rather than compare. For example, the magics in the weirwood cave can be seen as coming from nature, whereas in the HOTU the magics are manmade. The weirwoods are actually sustaining BR whereas the HOTU is looking to take another's life force. The HotU is using glamour throughout until the last scene to entice Dany with its beauty. The cave is clearly not hiding anything. A corrupted heart sustains the undying, whereas the CotF do not look to extend their lives to full immortality, but give themselves back to nature and the trees. It may not look pretty, but nature seldom is.

First--sorry I missed this on the previous thread. And I agree on the contrasts you point out.

 

But second: Magics in the wierwoods may be "natural," but don't seem to be at all natural for humans. And take a fair amount of intervention--the paste, the plugging into the trees, and then the trees, which give visions, sap (bad pun) the life out of BR even as they keep him alive. And while they may not have a literal corrupted heart, Bran saw the Heart of Winter (actual nature of which is to be determined). And BR could arguable be corrupted by the trees. And not at all sure that what we are seeing in the cave isn't a type of corruption--at least of the normal processes of nature. 

 

Not sure what the Undying wanted to do with Dany--reaching for her life force doesn't bode well, but not sure what the long game was. Still, given the state of the Undying, I think the parallel might (key word is might) be more significant than the contrast.

 

I'm not sure that in the end the differences are there. The House of the Undying at first looked pretty good and full of beautiful people before Danaerys saw behind the glamour. Bran was likewise decoyed and beguiled by the Crow until he was brought into the cave and saw the reality just as Danaerys did. Then, while the weirwoods are keeping Bloodraven alive the singers admit that its long after his time. Is Bloodraven aware of his physical degeneration and is he now welcoming Bran not as an assistant in his taking over the world, but because Bran's coming means that he can be allowed to die at last?

The horror, The horror!

 

 

Agree with the point regarding Dany. The question is if Bran will end up badly, since he happened to stay in the cave. Will he turn to the dark side of the force or will he save humanity?

No idea yet--though I do think Bran could end up being very dangerous, as discussed before. Now--any chance Summer can learn how to breath fire and burn it all up so Bran can get out?

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Yeah, I think a lot of the end game will be people 'remembering who they are'; Dany will remember (or already has remembered) that she is a dragon lord; The Starks will remember that they are Wolves, etc.

Yeah--it does seem like Martin suggests survival is getting back to who you are. And for these families, that means remembering the mystical animal side of things. Which makes me wonder (again) if that isn't part of the problem for the Lannisters. The mystical tie to dragons and wolves may be a double-edged sword (IE Rickon and his potential beastling nature). But the Lannisters have no mystical sense of unity. They may be called lions, but nothing like the actual direwolves or dragons. Cersei keeps over-identifying with Targs. Mystical/magical identity seems to be part of how these families will survive a fight with this ancient, mystical enemy of the Others. 

 

Maybe.

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Yeah--it does seem like Martin suggests survival is getting back to who you are. And for these families, that means remembering the mystical animal side of things. Which makes me wonder (again) if that isn't part of the problem for the Lannisters. The mystical tie to dragons and wolves may be a double-edged sword (IE Rickon and his potential beastling nature). But the Lannisters have no mystical sense of unity. They may be called lions, but nothing like the actual direwolves or dragons. Cersei keeps over-identifying with Targs. Mystical/magical identity seems to be part of how these families will survive a fight with this ancient, mystical enemy of the Others. 

 

Maybe.

 

Its worth remembering in this context Leaf's assertion that the great lions of the west are all dead and gone, and yes I agree that the return of the wolves is also about the return of House Stark and so far as getting back to who you are it is certainly argued in another place that this means Jon Snow "discovering he is a dragon" but in reality he has and is a Wolf and everything in the story thus far has been pointing the way to his recognition that [as Lyanna's child] he is indeed the son of Winterfell Maester Aemon proclaimed him to be.

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Quoted  :commie:

 

What? This?

" Here an enigmatic band of warriors bear swords of no human metal; a tribe of fierce wildlings carry men off into madness; "

 

 

First one's straightforward enough but "a tribe of fierce wildlings carry men off into madness"?

 

I'm not seeing the cotf there mate.

 

 

 

Will have to check some of that out, been looking for good reads.

 

Have read on the battles, though not for a while, between the Sioux and Illini, and also the Iriquois Mouring wars and  Beaver wars. They seemed rather bloody incidents. They were at a time that colonists began to arrive though.  Revenge killings did not seem all that uncommon either.

 

We may not be talking a genocide either, the last Long Night didn't wipe everyone out.  Heck, maybe it's a territorial dispute.

 

Probably just a bad analogy on my part to begin with.

 

Still get a creepy and untruthful vibe from Bran's 3 chapters in ADWD

 

I hear ya. And it's not a bad analogy at all. I would only argue it in reverse ;)

 

I would argue that the cotf never posed a great threat to Men, who were overrunning them with ease... And, I would argue that the Hammer, though dramatic, was likely not their doing, and, if it was, it was not a tool of extermination/genocide. Instead, it was simply the closing of the border.... a public works project. LOL

 

The genocide/extermination angle is certainly at play in Westeros, but rather than coming from the cotf, or the giants for that matter, it was attempted by the First Men before the Pact, and the Andals after it. Tis canon.

 

Ooooooh, I am the last of the giants, my people are gone from the earth.     The last of the great mountain giants, who ruled all the world at my birth.     Oh the smallfolk have stolen my forests, they’ve stolen my rivers and hills.     And the’ve built a great wall through my valleys, and fished all the fish from my rills.     In stone halls they burn their great fires, in stone halls they forge their sharp spears.     Whilst I walk alone in the mountains, with no true companion but tears.     They hunt me with dogs in the daylight, they hunt me with torches by night.     For these men who are small can never stand tall, whilst giants still walk in the light.     Oooooooh, I am the LAST of the giants, so learn well the words of my song.     For when I am gone the singing will fade, and the silence shall last long and long.  
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What? This?

 

I'm not seeing the cotf there mate.

 

 

Neither am I, directly, I just found it intriguing. I was referring to the synopsis which accounts for the wights [check], the neverborn [check] and the "inhuman" others. [?] No mention at all of the children in the synopsis, but in the world book they appear as an "inhuman" adversary.

 

And then Mormont, complaining of what's been forgotten, is warned that the trees

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there was no word in english either until the 20th century. 

 

Indeed, and as I said above a lot of what we now label as genocide was and sometimes still is in reality indifference - that is pursuing a millitary, political or economic objective without regard to those who inconveniently stand in the way.

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