Whats beyond the Lonely Light

[Taenqyrhae]

It would be kind of funny if the wargs of Lonely Light had thoroughly explored the oceans as whales and knew the exact location of a land in the Sunset Sea, and the shape of it's coastline, but practically nothing about it's interior because whales can't leave the sea.

[Syphon the Sanitator]

Probably a huge ocean, to account for the fact that no Ashaii has ever come to Westeros from there.

However, I would not be surprised if there had  been some civilization that came from there. Remember the oily black stone that's prevalent all across Westeros? In Oldtown, on one of the Iron Islands...That had to have come from somewhere. Logic dictates that one of the first things a sailor would see if sailing from the general direction of the west is the Iron Islands.

[Ser Danyel Mortimer]

thats a good point about the people of the lonely light

[falcotron]

I still find it suspicious that she never talks about what followers of R'hllor believe happens after death...I mean in most religions, particularly missionary ones that seek to convert people, that's a big factor. So why the hell is Mel so quiet about it?

Given how much (at least Mel's version of) the religion is like a dark satire of Zoroastrianism, I suspect it's partly because it's a sin to use anything but the urgency of the war against evil to proselytize, but partly because their afterlife is not all that appealing. Something like this:

Assuming you were good, and sufficiently committed to the fight against the Great Other, your soul leaves your body, and comes to a bridge, with a beautiful young woman who smells of flowers for a guide. You have four days to get over any lingering attachment to your body. If you succeed, she smiles at you as you cross. Then the holy spirit of light takes you off to heaven, where your guardian spirit consumes your soul to gain any useful knowledge you learned during life, and then it goes off to the frontlines of the war against the Great Other. The war will rage for 3000 years until the savior is reborn. After that, all evil will be vanquished, and all contrasts will no longer be necessary. So, after your spirit wades through a river of lava and fire which only burns you if you're afraid of it, it can spend eternity on a flat, luke-warm, grey-lit, shadowless, infinite plain on the moon.

If you fell short in any way, the woman is old and smells of decay, and you spend the war in hell, where you eat nothing but rotten food, and are surrounded by a million people you can't interact with in any way except to smell their stench. After the war is finally over, you will be allowed to wade through the lava river, which will painfully (and smellily) burn away all your sins, but if anything is left of you on the other side, your guardian spirit will eat it, and then it gets to join the victors.

[falcotron]

Probably a huge ocean, to account for the fact that no Ashaii has ever come to Westeros from there.
However, I would not be surprised if there had  been some civilization that came from there. Remember the oily black stone that's prevalent all across Westeros? In Oldtown, on one of the Iron Islands...That had to have come from somewhere. Logic dictates that one of the first things a sailor would see if sailing from the general direction of the west is the Iron Islands.

Unless, of course, the civilization to the west was on a great island that sank 12000+ years ago, in which case a sailor wouldn't find anything.

I suspect that the whole point is that wherever the Seastone Chair, Oldtown, etc. came from is something that's forever lost to myth (or, at best, may be partly pieced together by a modern society centuries in the future by studying not just myths but archeology, genetics, etc.).

[Orphalesion]

Given how much (at least Mel's version of) the religion is like a dark satire of Zoroastrianism, I suspect it's partly because it's a sin to use anything but the urgency of the war against evil to proselytize, but partly because their afterlife is not all that appealing. Something like this:

Assuming you were good, and sufficiently committed to the fight against the Great Other, your soul leaves your body, and comes to a bridge, with a beautiful young woman who smells of flowers for a guide. You have four days to get over any lingering attachment to your body. If you succeed, she smiles at you as you cross. Then the holy spirit of light takes you off to heaven, where your guardian spirit consumes your soul to gain any useful knowledge you learned during life, and then it goes off to the frontlines of the war against the Great Other. The war will rage for 3000 years until the savior is reborn. After that, all evil will be vanquished, and all contrasts will no longer be necessary. So, after your spirit wades through a river of lava and fire which only burns you if you're afraid of it, it can spend eternity on a flat, luke-warm, grey-lit, shadowless, infinite plain on the moon.

If you fell short in any way, the woman is old and smells of decay, and you spend the war in hell, where you eat nothing but rotten food, and are surrounded by a million people you can't interact with in any way except to smell their stench. After the war is finally over, you will be allowed to wade through the lava river, which will painfully (and smellily) burn away all your sins, but if anything is left of you on the other side, your guardian spirit will eat it, and then it gets to join the victors.

 

Interesting; I knew about the guide, the bridge and the lava river. I did not know about the being consumed by guardian spirits thing. I have had my suspicions that Mel sacrifices people to be consumed by R'hllor.

 

The other theory I had was that the worship of R'hllor is like ancient Judaism and there was no afterlife.

[falcotron]

Interesting; I knew about the guide, the bridge and the lava river. I did not know about the being consumed by guardian spirits thing.

I suspect a Zoroastrian theologian would say that the urvan (human soul) is joyously reunited with its fravashi (guardian spirit, or spiritual soul), and this is a good thing, not a scary one. But if you look at the way it's described, it sure sounds like your guardian angel eats you to absorb your knowledge. Especially given that the whole reason your urvan was split off and incarnated in the first place is to collect experience and knowledge from the material world.

So, if I were inventing an evil fantasy religion based heavily on Zoroastrianism (as R'hllorism obviously is), I would definitely have good souls being eaten by their guardian spirits in it. And I would have the priests not tell that part to the converts. (So it might not even directly appear in the books... but if Mel dies in her last chapter, that would be a good place to reveal it.)

Of course GRRM isn't me (which is a good thing, because you wouldn't want to read 10000 pages by me), so he might have a different plan in mind.

I have had my suspicions that Mel sacrifices people to be consumed by R'hllor.

Yeah, that works. But it's more an evil version of Shakta Hinduism, which has already been done to death in early 20th-century adventure stories (as reflected in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom).

The other theory I had was that the worship of R'hllor is like ancient Judaism and there was no afterlife.

I thought ancient Judaism had reincarnation, and it was only relatively recently (starting in 1st century rabbinic Judaism, but especially during the late medieval era) that they interpreted the sheol references as meaning that there is no you after death but the you in the grave?

Anyway, this is the obvious guess for a religion that never talks about the afterlife; the only strike against it is that it's kind of boring. :)

[Ser Danyel Mortimer]

Since I don't believe that there is anything after this I prefer to think theres nothing after in westeros since if there was it would certainly be horrible

[Sage of Westeros]

Death is what lies west of Westeros, which is odd because death is what lies on Westeros.

[falcotron]

Death is what lies west of Westeros, which is odd because death is what lies on Westeros.

To be fair, there's also quite a bit of it east of Westeros.

[Shireen Purratheon]

To be fair, there's also quite a bit of it east of Westeros.

Word is south of Westeros is nice as long as you're not Jalabar Xho.

 

South of Essos on the other hand...

[falcotron]

Word is south of Westeros is nice as long as you're not Jalabar Xho.

North of Westeros is pretty nice too, at least if you're made of ice and magic instead of flesh and blood.

[Ser Danyel Mortimer]

I don't death stays in any particular place although north beyond the wall is a close contender

[Orphalesion]

Yeah, that works. But it's more an evil version of Shakta Hinduism, which has already been done to death in early 20th-century adventure stories (as reflected in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom).

I thought ancient Judaism had reincarnation, and it was only relatively recently (starting in 1st century rabbinic Judaism, but especially during the late medieval era) that they interpreted the sheol references as meaning that there is no you after death but the you in the grave?

Anyway, this is the obvious guess for a religion that never talks about the afterlife; the only strike against it is that it's kind of boring. :)

 

Nah I didn't mean that being sacrificed by fire is the only way followers of R'hllor dead souls get consumed by R'hllor. My thought was more along the lines that both good followers of R'hllor and those dying by fire get consumed by it, everybody else becomes part of the Great Other. Mel is all about how people get their souls cleansed by being torched so it seemed obvious to me. Basically (from her perspective) she is not really sacrificing them, but "saving" them from being consumed by the Great Other (which would be bad) by "feeding" them to R'hllor (which in her mind, would be preferable)

 

No. There are/were fringe groups in Judaism and Christianity that believe(d) in reincarnation. Look at the Old Testament/the Torah reincarnation is never really suggested, but cessation of existence is in both Job and Ecclesiastes with all it's "the death are dust, they know nothing, what light shines down to Sheol?"

There are however also early references to the hope of a (good) afterlife in Psalms that God's ligth reaches into sheol and that he can deliver souls from it.

There are also scattered references throughout history that some followers of Judaism expect/believe in a Resurrection of the dead.  

 

It would make sense in regards to R'hllor because one of the characteristics it shares with (old Testament) god is that humans are tools to serve and praise them and quickly discarded if they don't fulfill those jobs anymore.

[Ser Danyel Mortimer]

Most of the lords in westeros think commoners are tools to use and discard, I can't see gods being nicer about it

[Adam Targaryen]

Lol me and my friends have actually created an entire secret world that lies in the Sunset Sea, just south-west of The Lonely Light. We've created our own houses and everything.