Unsolved fate of certain Targaryens

[Drekinn]

So the book goes over to mention many Targaryens, but their fate is left unknown. Like the twin daughters of Aegon, the son of Aenys I. It's no wonder there's so many people believing in secret Targaryens. What do you think happened with those less famous family members?

[Lord Varys]

Aerea and Rhalla Targaryen most likely survived Maegor's reign, married, and had quite a lot of children of their own since we know from Ran that the nine lesser claims which were discussed and dismissed at the Great Council weren't put forth by either Viserys' or Laenor's party (i.e. Daemon, Laena, Rhaenys, etc. didn't put forth their own claims but rather put all their political weight into supporting the most promising claim). Thus those nine lesser claimants must have been other descendants of Aenys I, most likely children or grandchildren of Aerea and Rhalla, or children or grandchildren of Rhaena from a third marriage (she survived Maegor and may have decided to remarry).

 

Technically, I think, the Baratheons may also have been able to put forth a claim - based on them being descended from Aegon's alleged half-brother and from Alyssa Velaryon, who was Lord Boremund Baratheon's mother - but we know that the Baratheons firmly backed Laenor's claim, so it is very unlikely that Lord Boremund put forth a claim himself.

 

It seems that all the children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne were dead by the time of the Great Council, so neither of them would have put forth his claim. The only whose fate/death date we don't know are Alyssa Targaryen - the sister-wife of Prince Baelon and eldest surviving child of Jaehaerys who gave birth to Viserys, Daemon, and mysterious Aegon - and Archmaester Vaegon. If Alyssa was still alive we would expect her to back Viserys, while Archmaester Vaegon most likely wouldn't present a claim at all, considering that he was an Archmaester at the Citadel.

 

But we have no idea into which houses Aerea and Rhalla married into. Early speculations suggested that one of them may have been Corlys Velaryon's mother, giving Laena and Laenor another drop of Targaryen blood through the Velaryon line but that is difficult to imagine considering that Corlys was born in 53 AC (and Aerea and Rhalla were only born in 42 AC). One of them may have been married to a younger brother of Corlys' father, and subsequently be the ancestor of Daeron Velaryon and his daughter Daenaera, who became the second queen of Aegon III - her striking Valyrian features would suggests that she had a Valyrian ancestor in the near past.

 

If Corlys Velaryon had a Targaryen parent then Rhaena would be a good suggesting - she could have married his father in a third marriage.

 

Considering the eagerness of House Hightower to acquire a Targaryen bride they would be among the best candidates for a match there - except that we know that Otto and Alicent apparently had no Targaryen blood. When Alicent's marriage to Viserys is discussed TRP remarks that she is of very noble and ancient blood, but no Targaryen ancestors are mentioned. It would also make no sense to assume that Otto or his brother had put forth their own claims to the Iron Throne as descendants of Aenys I and Prince Aegon while Otto was serving as Hand to Jaehaerys I.

 

A house that deserves serious considerations of having a drop of Targaryen blood through Aerea and Rhalla would be the Strongs, I think. We have a Strong Hand serving Aegon I, later Jaehaerys I gives Harrenhal to Lord Lyonel Strong after the Towers line died out, and then later still Viserys I names Lyonel to the Small Council and eventually makes him Hand. That could be all due to Lyonel's merits, achievements, and intelligence - the man was apparently quite exceptional - but still.

 

If we go back to the war against Maegor one would expect Alyssa Velaryon and Jaehaerys I to reward staunch supporters with a royal match. Lord Robar Baratheon got Alyssa's hand, and their daughter Jocelyn was later married to Jaehaerys' eldest son and heir. The only other houses mentioned as somewhat prominent supporters of Jaehaerys I are Lord Tully (although he may have allied himself with the Poor Fellows rather than fighting in the name of Jaehaerys I) and Daemon Velaryon, the Master of Ships.

[DanaKz]

What's more interesting - what really happened to Egg's sisters?

What happened to Daena? We don't know what did she do after she was freed from Maidenvault: I mean we know what Rhaena did, we know Elaena's fate, but I find it hard to believe Daena the Defiant was just sitting doing nothing after Daemon's birth. We know she didn't died on childbed, she was still alive when Baelor died, probably she tried to crown herself. What happened to her after that?

[Lord Varys]

Daena the Defiant died early, of unknown causes. She apparently didn't live to see the Blackfyre Rebellion, perhaps not even the ascension of Daeron II.

 

One of Egg's sisters most likely is the ancestor of Lord Selwyn the Evenstar and Brienne of Tarth - my guess is that Daella married Dunk, and a daughter of that union is the mother Lord Selwyn. Rhae supposedly married, too, but we don't know whom.

[Drekinn]

Those responses were better than I expected. Thanks Lord Varys :)

[Ser Naufragus]

Any "missing" Targs were likely bbq'd by egg at summerhall. Egg wiped out any alive in his era save Aerys and family

[King_Slayer]

(Lord Varys drops the mic)
[exit, stage left]

[Lord Varys]

Well, I guess I could ramble on but that wouldn't be much fun if nobody is listening... ;-).

 

But the whereabouts of the five daughters by Rhaena Targaryen and Garmund Hightower are equally interesting - my guess is that 1-2 of them are the (grand-)parents of Ronnel and Aelinor Penrose (who married Elaena and Aerys Targaryen, respectively) as well as of Jena Dondarrion (Baelor Breakspear's bride) but that would leave 3-4 of them unaccounted for. Perhaps Alys Arryn (Rhaegel's wife) and Dyanna Dayne are also descended from them (or not).

 

And then there is the question about any (additional) offspring of Vaella the Simple (you can breed even if you are a lackwit), Princess Daenora, and Prince Maegor. Not to mention the rather intriguing question whether Duncan and Jenny had any children.

[Shireen Purratheon]

And then there is the question about any (additional) offspring of Vaella the Simple (you can breed even if you are a lackwit), Princess Daenora, and Prince Maegor. Not to mention the rather intriguing question whether Duncan and Jenny had any children.

Wouldn't Duncan and Jenny's children have probably died at Summerhall if they existed? It seems unlikely that Duncan wouldn't bring his kids with him. Although given it was a celebration of Aerys and Rhaella's kid, he could have an adult(or old enough to be doing other stuff) child.

[Lord Varys]

That is always a possibility. In fact, I assume that any Targaryens still alive not mentioned after Summerhall if still alive then (i.e. Rhae/Daella, Vaella, Daenora, Maegor, and Rhaelle) may have died at Summerhall. Rhae, Daella, and Rhaelle may have died earlier, and Daenora and Maegor have had they own stories but if not, then they could also have died there, and it is confirmed that Jenny and Duncan were at Summerhall, suggesting that their children were there, too, and so could have died there. It is quite clear that Jenny and Duncan had no grandchildren of their own at this time since Aegon V wanted to celebrate the birth of his first great-grandchild (Rhaegar) at Summerhall.

[Constantinople]

On Prince Maegor, the morbid thought strikes me that "kill the boy and let the man be born" might have had a literal meaning in the context of the Great Council of 233...

[Lord Varys]

Well, Egg and Aemon would have to be real asses to pull something like that off. But then, perhaps Gregor was only paying tribute to the last King Aegon when he dashed the other Aegon's head against the wall...

 

But no, I don't buy any of that. Maegor was apparently not popular enough to gain much support at the Great Council, and even if Aerion had had some cronies who were powerful enough to cause a war over the succession prior to the Great Council, Maegor's ignominious defeat there would have been a strong enough blow for his cause to dissuade any dissenters to try to proclaim him king anyway. Just as the overwhelming support Prince Viserys enjoyed from the Lords at the Great Council effectively crushed all the dreams of the Velaryons and their allies to crown 'King Laenor'.

 

And Egg certainly is a nice enough guy to not murder his own nephew unless there was no other choice - which means he would most likely have brought up the boy as his own ward unless Princess Daenora - if she was still alive - did not hate him with a passion and flee Westeros to get out of his sphere of influence or something like that.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

What's more interesting - what really happened to Egg's sisters?

What happened to Daena? We don't know what did she do after she was freed from Maidenvault: I mean we know what Rhaena did, we know Elaena's fate, but I find it hard to believe Daena the Defiant was just sitting doing nothing after Daemon's birth. We know she didn't died on childbed, she was still alive when Baelor died, probably she tried to crown herself. What happened to her after that?

She was betrothed but before the marriage, she died during a drunken ride through King's Landing.  I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

[shockwave]

She was betrothed but before the marriage, she died during a drunken ride through King's Landing.  I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

that is Viserra, one of Jaehaerys daughters

[Roddy Darwin]

 

But we have no idea into which houses Aerea and Rhalla married into. Early speculations suggested that one of them may have been Corlys Velaryon's mother, giving Laena and Laenor another drop of Targaryen blood through the Velaryon line but that is difficult to imagine considering that Corlys was born in 53 AC (and Aerea and Rhalla were only born in 42 AC). One of them may have been married to a younger brother of Corlys' father, and subsequently be the ancestor of Daeron Velaryon and his daughter Daenaera, who became the second queen of Aegon III - her striking Valyrian features would suggests that she had a Valyrian ancestor in the near past.

 

If Corlys Velaryon had a Targaryen parent then Rhaena would be a good suggesting - she could have married his father in a third marriage.

 

Considering the eagerness of House Hightower to acquire a Targaryen bride they would be among the best candidates for a match there - except that we know that Otto and Alicent apparently had no Targaryen blood. When Alicent's marriage to Viserys is discussed TRP remarks that she is of very noble and ancient blood, but no Targaryen ancestors are mentioned. It would also make no sense to assume that Otto or his brother had put forth their own claims to the Iron Throne as descendants of Aenys I and Prince Aegon while Otto was serving as Hand to Jaehaerys I.

 

A house that deserves serious considerations of having a drop of Targaryen blood through Aerea and Rhalla would be the Strongs, I think. We have a Strong Hand serving Aegon I, later Jaehaerys I gives Harrenhal to Lord Lyonel Strong after the Towers line died out, and then later still Viserys I names Lyonel to the Small Council and eventually makes him Hand. That could be all due to Lyonel's merits, achievements, and intelligence - the man was apparently quite exceptional - but still.

 

 

Well, I guess I could ramble on but that wouldn't be much fun if nobody is listening... ;-).

 

But the whereabouts of the five daughters by Rhaena Targaryen and Garmund Hightower are equally interesting - my guess is that 1-2 of them are the (grand-)parents of Ronnel and Aelinor Penrose (who married Elaena and Aerys Targaryen, respectively) as well as of Jena Dondarrion (Baelor Breakspear's bride) but that would leave 3-4 of them unaccounted for. Perhaps Alys Arryn (Rhaegel's wife) and Dyanna Dayne are also descended from them (or not).

 

And then there is the question about any (additional) offspring of Vaella the Simple (you can breed even if you are a lackwit), Princess Daenora, and Prince Maegor. Not to mention the rather intriguing question whether Duncan and Jenny had any children.

 

 

What about the Celtigars?

I always wondered what was up with the (early) Velaryons being seemingly so much more highly considered than the Celtigars. We have so many Targ/Velaryon marriages both before and after Aegon's conquest, yet no mention of a single Celtigar match.

 

It also seems that the Velaryon's impressive naval power predates Corlys. How did that happen? I don't have the world book on hand, but if I recall, when Yandel talks about Aenar's exile, he mentions the Celtigars and the Velaryons as "lesser valyrian houses". And the way I see it, it probably wasn't really just three families and then commoners moving west, right? So if the Velaryons were so much more powerful than the Celtigars when they all moved to and around Dragonstone, why bother mentioning the latter at all? Why mention them in a way that makes them and the Velaryons sound interchangeable as random Targ vassals that just decided to follow their lord, when a few years later, Velaryons are basically a cadet Targ branch and one of the most powerful houses in the new Seven Kingdoms, and the Celtigars are... Just Valyrians sitting on Claw Isle with the odd small council member every now and then. 

 

What's up with that? Valyrian blood is clearly prized by Targaryens, especially early ones. And I think even if Celtigars have no actual Targ blood, the simple fact that they are of valyrian descent should make them pretty appealing matches to lordly houses of Westeros, right? If only because the ladies Celtigar would probably be considered Valyria-hot?

 

Maybe the early Celtigar lords were terrible players at the Game of Thrones, or just chill guys happy to sit on their island with their fancy glass, and they kinda missed the boat, but I dunno. I find it really strange they are so disregarded when it would, I think, have been fairly easy for them to become a very serious political power in the early Seven Kingdoms.

 

 

 

(Unless of course, it's not that they refused to play the game, it's that they lost. Maybe there were Targ-Celtigar matches, that for some reason turned out poorly, and it just didn't make Yandel's editor cut. That would tie up some loose Targ ends on the family tree, and explain why nobody takes the poor Valyrian craaaaab-people seriously...)

[Lord Varys]

Roddy Darwin,

 

there seems to be indeed a difference in rank between the Velaryons and the Celtigars. Neither were ever dragonlord houses, but the Velaryons seem to farther up the Valyrian noble ladder than the Celtigars.

 

We know that Velaryons had come to the Narrow Sea even before Aenar the Exile, presumably as part of the original dragonlord-led Valyrian colonization of Dragonstone, Driftmark, and Claw Isle. One assumes that the Velaryons ruled Driftmark since then, with non-dragonlord Valyrian official overseeing the Freehold's holdings in the Narrow Sea. The dragonlords were only involved in the early stages of the enterprises in the Narrow Sea until everything was secured - until Aenar came. One assumes that Aenar bought the right to Dragonstone and all the attached holdings from the Lords Freeholder since he had sold all his holdings in Valyria and the Lands of the Long Summer, apparently never intending to return.

 

The Velaryons would have had time to built a huge fleet and grow rich on trade even before Aenar arrived, but after that the Targaryens and Velaryons together apparently effectively controlled the Narrow Sea. The Velaryons with their fleet, and the Targaryens with their dragons. And together they grew very rich long before the Conquest even began. This alliance seems to have been the basis for the continuing intermarriage between the Targaryens and the Velaryons in the years before the Conquest. Subsequently the Velaryons were the closest Targaryen kin and thus natural the house the royal family would turn to if there was no Targaryen bride at hand.

In that sense it is not surprising that the Velaryons continue to be rich and powerful throughout the first century AC, and Corlys then only builds on that wealth and expands on it with his gamble.

 

The Celtigars don't seem to play in the same league. They are not as powerful, and there are no confirmed Targaryen-Celtigar matches. Although one would expect the occasional Velaryon-Celtigar match ensuring that the Celtigars also have at least a few drops of Targaryen blood. 

 

But there is Rhaenyra's odd dismissal of Lord Celtigar as a potential dragonrider in TPatQ either indicating that the man didn't have any dragonlord blood, or that he didn't have it in him to try to mount an adult dragon for another reason (known cowardice, old age, etc.).

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

that is Viserra, one of Jaehaerys daughters

Yeah, I looked it up when I got home.  I guess they both loved riding horses though!  Sorry.

[Roddy Darwin]

Roddy Darwin,
 
there seems to be indeed a difference in rank between the Velaryons and the Celtigars. Neither were ever dragonlord houses, but the Velaryons seem to farther up the Valyrian noble ladder than the Celtigars.
 
We know that Velaryons had come to the Narrow Sea even before Aenar the Exile, presumably as part of the original dragonlord-led Valyrian colonization of Dragonstone, Driftmark, and Claw Isle. One assumes that the Velaryons ruled Driftmark since then, with non-dragonlord Valyrian official overseeing the Freehold's holdings in the Narrow Sea. The dragonlords were only involved in the early stages of the enterprises in the Narrow Sea until everything was secured - until Aenar came. One assumes that Aenar bought the right to Dragonstone and all the attached holdings from the Lords Freeholder since he had sold all his holdings in Valyria and the Lands of the Long Summer, apparently never intending to return.
 
The Velaryons would have had time to built a huge fleet and grow rich on trade even before Aenar arrived, but after that the Targaryens and Velaryons together apparently effectively controlled the Narrow Sea. The Velaryons with their fleet, and the Targaryens with their dragons. And together they grew very rich long before the Conquest even began. This alliance seems to have been the basis for the continuing intermarriage between the Targaryens and the Velaryons in the years before the Conquest. Subsequently the Velaryons were the closest Targaryen kin and thus natural the house the royal family would turn to if there was no Targaryen bride at hand.
In that sense it is not surprising that the Velaryons continue to be rich and powerful throughout the first century AC, and Corlys then only builds on that wealth and expands on it with his gamble.
 
The Celtigars don't seem to play in the same league. They are not as powerful, and there are no confirmed Targaryen-Celtigar matches. Although one would expect the occasional Velaryon-Celtigar match ensuring that the Celtigars also have at least a few drops of Targaryen blood. 
 
But there is Rhaenyra's odd dismissal of Lord Celtigar as a potential dragonrider in TPatQ either indicating that the man didn't have any dragonlord blood, or that he didn't have it in him to try to mount an adult dragon for another reason (known cowardice, old age, etc.).

Really interesting, thanks a lot Lord Varys.

For some reason, in my mind the Velaryons and Celtigars only came to the Narrow Sea with Aenar and the Targs; but it does make perfect sense that they were already there and that the Velaryons already possessed their fleet when the Targs showed up.