StarkofWinterfell Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Hello, It is known that the Targaryens have a history of mental illness - one of the symptoms of lead poisoning - and it is not know why they are like this. The Targaryens practiced incest but after generations of offspring produced this way, there would be a lot more problems apparent so I don't think incest made them "mad." Enter in the lead poisoning theory. Scholars speculate that the Roman Empire fell because its people - mainly the aristocrats and the imperial family - were exposed to large amounts of lead in their drinking supply. It is no secret that Ancient Rome drinking water contained large amounts of lead in addition to the Romans being very found of using lead in all sorts of everyday items. Clearly, Romans were exposed to lead all the time. But the matter of it causing their downfall is debatable. Roman emperors towards the end of the empire would rotate off the throne like a rotating drycleaner's rack. Plus you had emperors like Caligula and Nero. The Targaryens and in addition, the Valyrian civilization as a whole are often compared to the Romans. When Aegon came to Westeros, there was no King's Landing or Red Keep so those are relatively new in terms of castles in Westeros. Who is to say that the Targaryens didn't use lead piping to bring in their water supply to the Red Keep? Because we only have one family living in the Red Keep, we can't compare to another family, except for perhaps the Baratheons which have only been ruling for a short time. (However this can explain Cersei and Joffrey's craziness) Did the Targaryens suffer from lead poisoning? What else can explain their madness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkofWinterfell Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 Lead poisoning symptoms in children The signs and symptoms of lead poisoning in children may include: Developmental delay Learning difficulties Irritability Loss of appetite Weight loss Sluggishness and fatigue Abdominal pain Vomiting Constipation Hearing loss Lead poisoning symptoms in newborns Babies who are exposed to lead before birth may experience: Learning difficulties Slowed growth Lead poisoning symptoms in adults Although children are primarily at risk, lead poisoning is also dangerous for adults. Signs and symptoms in adults may include: High blood pressure Abdominal pain Constipation Joint pains Muscle pain Declines in mental functioning Pain, numbness or tingling of the extremities Headache Memory loss Mood disorders Reduced sperm count, abnormal sperm Miscarriage or premature birth in pregnant women We know that Rhaella had a lot of miscarriages by Aerys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jono of Oldtown Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 There has been a massive decline in vilont crime in the west over the last few decades as well as rising levels of education, many people have speculated that this is because of the removal of lead from petrol/gas and paint and other everyday items around 30 years ago, nothing proven but still interesting. This would also tie in with other time periods when nobles used to paint there faces white, using a lead based compound that ultimately just poisoned the whole upper class of Europe. It is a great theory and I could see the Red Keep having lead pipes but I don't think that is what GRRM had in mind when he decided to make Targaryen madness a feature of his books. Is in not a little dull for a fantasy novel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Agrippa Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Hello, It is known that the Targaryens have a history of mental illness - one of the symptoms of lead poisoning - and it is not know why they are like this. The Targaryens practiced incest but after generations of offspring produced this way, there would be a lot more problems apparent so I don't think incest made them "mad." Enter in the lead poisoning theory. Scholars speculate that the Roman Empire fell because its people - mainly the aristocrats and the imperial family - were exposed to large amounts of lead in their drinking supply. It is no secret that Ancient Rome drinking water contained large amounts of lead in addition to the Romans being very found of using lead in all sorts of everyday items. Clearly, Romans were exposed to lead all the time. But the matter of it causing their downfall is debatable. Roman emperors towards the end of the empire would rotate off the throne like a rotating drycleaner's rack. Plus you had emperors like Caligula and Nero. The Targaryens and in addition, the Valyrian civilization as a whole are often compared to the Romans. When Aegon came to Westeros, there was no King's Landing or Red Keep so those are relatively new in terms of castles in Westeros. Who is to say that the Targaryens didn't use lead piping to bring in their water supply to the Red Keep? Because we only have one family living in the Red Keep, we can't compare to another family, except for perhaps the Baratheons which have only been ruling for a short time. (However this can explain Cersei and Joffrey's craziness) Did the Targaryens suffer from lead poisoning? What else can explain their madness? Lead poisoning was disproven. http://www.designntrend.com/articles/13163/20140425/the-demise-of-the-roman-empire-was-not-caused-by-what-they-drank.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 The phrase "Mad Hatter" came about due to the propensity of hat makers being a bit loony because the hat sizing tools they used (& put on their own heads) were made of lead. Also, "Southern Bells" in civil war era used makeup that contained lead...hence their "frailness." This is definitely possible but GRRM doesn't get into too much detail on different types of metals (except iron, copper, bronze, steel) so I'm not sure we will read anything on it. Hmm, did I just refute my own claim?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veloknight Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Lead poisoning was disproven. http://www.designntrend.com/articles/13163/20140425/the-demise-of-the-roman-empire-was-not-caused-by-what-they-drank.htm Maybe for the Romans, but there's a strong case to be made for Lead Poisoning being partially responsible for the sky-high crime rates in various Western countries that began to decline about a quarter century ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuncle Karstark Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Maybe for the Romans, but there's a strong case to be made for Lead Poisoning being partially responsible for the sky-high crime rates in various Western countries that began to decline about a quarter century ago.Way too many factors to consider it conclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkofWinterfell Posted August 5, 2015 Author Share Posted August 5, 2015 Lead poisoning was disproven. http://www.designntrend.com/articles/13163/20140425/the-demise-of-the-roman-empire-was-not-caused-by-what-they-drank.htm That article only examines the water. Lead is a heavy metal and will build up over time in your body. This article looked at the skeletons of ancient Romans and found that lead levels in the bones were 20 times higher than the WHO considers "very severe lead poisoning" http://www.poweredbyosteons.org/2012/01/lead-poisoning-in-rome-skeletal.html As for lead poisoning causing the Targaryens "madness" as well as Rhaella's miscarriages, it is the only plausible explanation put forth other than "plot" or "magic" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkofWinterfell Posted August 5, 2015 Author Share Posted August 5, 2015 The phrase "Mad Hatter" came about due to the propensity of hat makers being a bit loony because the hat sizing tools they used (& put on their own heads) were made of lead. Also, "Southern Bells" in civil war era used makeup that contained lead...hence their "frailness." This is definitely possible but GRRM doesn't get into too much detail on different types of metals (except iron, copper, bronze, steel) so I'm not sure we will read anything on it. Hmm, did I just refute my own claim?.... Hm, interesting. You learn something new everyday. So then even using something made of lead would cause problems. There has been a massive decline in vilont crime in the west over the last few decades as well as rising levels of education, many people have speculated that this is because of the removal of lead from petrol/gas and paint and other everyday items around 30 years ago, nothing proven but still interesting. This would also tie in with other time periods when nobles used to paint there faces white, using a lead based compound that ultimately just poisoned the whole upper class of Europe. It is a great theory and I could see the Red Keep having lead pipes but I don't think that is what GRRM had in mind when he decided to make Targaryen madness a feature of his books. Is in not a little dull for a fantasy novel? I don't think it'd be too dull for a fantasy novel. For world-building, it might even amplify the story and give it a tiny bit more life at least when talking about the Targaryens. But thank you both for your contributions. The mad hatters and white powder are definitely new information to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuncle Karstark Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 As for lead poisoning causing the Targaryens "madness" as well as Rhaella's miscarriages, it is the only plausible explanation put forth other than "plot" or "magic"What, like incest? *Facepalm* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Agrippa Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 That article only examines the water. Lead is a heavy metal and will build up over time in your body. This article looked at the skeletons of ancient Romans and found that lead levels in the bones were 20 times higher than the WHO considers "very severe lead poisoning" http://www.poweredbyosteons.org/2012/01/lead-poisoning-in-rome-skeletal.html As for lead poisoning causing the Targaryens "madness" as well as Rhaella's miscarriages, it is the only plausible explanation put forth other than "plot" or "magic" It's not yet clear what the data mean, though, other than that some people likely had lead poisoning and others didn't. The sample size is fairly small, and more importantly, I don't know where in Rome people were living. That is, if the people buried at Casal Bertone and Castellaccio Europarco were living in an industrial area or were metalworkers, then they were more at risk for high levels of lead than were people not living in those areas and not doing those jobs. What is clear, though, is that lead poisoning is not something you'd want to have. People with very severe lead poisoning tend to have major neurological changes - brain swelling leading to seizures and headaches, aggressive behavior, loss of short-term memory, and slurred speech - and a host of other problems, like anemia and constipation. Did lead poisoning cause the fall of the Roman Empire? Probably not. Yes, there was increased lead production in the Roman Empire, which we know from histories, ecological sources (like ice cores from Greenland and peat bogs in Europe), artifacts, and now skeletons. But the data - few as they are - simply don't support a conclusion of high lead concentration in the entire population. More research of this sort is needed, of course, to examine the potential effects that anthropogenic lead had on the population of Rome and the Empire. Fortunately, more will be forthcoming from Gabii as I start biochemical analyses of those skeletons this year, so stay tuned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Agrippa Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 It's a good article lad. As for the emporer's who knows. Incest is probably more to blame then that is but roman bloodlines are a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 As for lead poisoning causing the Targaryens "madness" as well as Rhaella's miscarriages, it is the only plausible explanation put forth other than "plot" or "magic" Hm, interesting. You learn something new everyday. So then even using something made of lead would cause problems.I agree it's a very plausible explanation if GRRM starts bring up different kinds of metals. Yes, any physical exposure to lead can have neg efffects, not just ingesting it. I don't think it'd be too dull for a fantasy novel. For world-building, it might even amplify the story and give it a tiny bit more life at least when talking about the Targaryens. But thank you both for your contributions. The mad hatters and white powder are definitely new information to me.It would certainly put a realistic cause to Targ Madness because incest is not a cause of "madness" What, like incest? *Facepalm*You do realize that, in the real world, incest does not cause any kind of mental imparement, right? It simply increases genetic disorders, that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkofWinterfell Posted April 22, 2016 Author Share Posted April 22, 2016 So I see two other posts about this and I wonder why it's such a hot topic lately but here's my old thread to join the fray! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaynsa Starne Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 On 8/5/2015 at 9:27 PM, StarkofWinterfell said: That article only examines the water. Lead is a heavy metal and will build up over time in your body. This article looked at the skeletons of ancient Romans and found that lead levels in the bones were 20 times higher than the WHO considers "very severe lead poisoning" http://www.poweredbyosteons.org/2012/01/lead-poisoning-in-rome-skeletal.html As for lead poisoning causing the Targaryens "madness" as well as Rhaella's miscarriages, it is the only plausible explanation put forth other than "plot" or "magic" How is that the *only* plausible explanation? Some women have a very hard time carrying children to term without lead poisoning. Some mental illnesses with a genetic component such as schizophrenia may increase with frequency in incestuous families. Sometimes authors make shit up without really thinking about real-world biology. Lead poisoning is certainly *one* option, but it is by no means the *only* option, or even the most likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 On 8/3/2015 at 7:33 PM, StarkofWinterfell said: Hello, It is known that the Targaryens have a history of mental illness - one of the symptoms of lead poisoning - and it is not know why they are like this. The Targaryens practiced incest but after generations of offspring produced this way, there would be a lot more problems apparent so I don't think incest made them "mad." Enter in the lead poisoning theory. Scholars speculate that the Roman Empire fell because its people - mainly the aristocrats and the imperial family - were exposed to large amounts of lead in their drinking supply. It is no secret that Ancient Rome drinking water contained large amounts of lead in addition to the Romans being very found of using lead in all sorts of everyday items. Clearly, Romans were exposed to lead all the time. But the matter of it causing their downfall is debatable. Roman emperors towards the end of the empire would rotate off the throne like a rotating drycleaner's rack. Plus you had emperors like Caligula and Nero. The Targaryens and in addition, the Valyrian civilization as a whole are often compared to the Romans. When Aegon came to Westeros, there was no King's Landing or Red Keep so those are relatively new in terms of castles in Westeros. Who is to say that the Targaryens didn't use lead piping to bring in their water supply to the Red Keep? Because we only have one family living in the Red Keep, we can't compare to another family, except for perhaps the Baratheons which have only been ruling for a short time. (However this can explain Cersei and Joffrey's craziness) Did the Targaryens suffer from lead poisoning? What else can explain their madness? If it was the water, wouldn't it stand to reason that not just the Targaryens but the entire city was loopy? Only some of the Targs were mad, many of them were pretty sharp. Tywin spent 20 years in KL as hand, I don't see any madness in him. Viserys left when he was seven or eight, but he was a few cards short of a full deck. I've long suspected that the Targs who were mad were the ones tormented by dragon dreams from a young age, like Daeron the Drunken. They couldn't deal with the visions they were given and it drove them to madness and paranoia, just like Cersei and Maggy the Frog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 The idea that lead poisoning had anything to do with the Romans losing the western territories would only make sense if we assume that the Byzantines suddenly didn't have any lead plumbing. If that's not the case then the entire theory is just nonsense. The Roman Empire ended in 1453 when Constantinople was conquered by the Turks, not in 476. Aside from that, we know that Septon Barth seems to have done some plumbing in KL, and there are water conduits in Casterly Rock and Winterfell, too, but there is no hint that those were made of lead. Even if they were - one would assume that not only the royal family would be allowed to drink such water. In fact, there are hints that those conduits are no longer there because nothing suggests that the privy in the Tower of the Hand is a water closet. Hell, people at court even use chamber pots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 On 5. 8. 2015 at 4:27 AM, StarkofWinterfell said: That article only examines the water. Lead is a heavy metal and will build up over time in your body. This article looked at the skeletons of ancient Romans and found that lead levels in the bones were 20 times higher than the WHO considers "very severe lead poisoning" http://www.poweredbyosteons.org/2012/01/lead-poisoning-in-rome-skeletal.html As for lead poisoning causing the Targaryens "madness" as well as Rhaella's miscarriages, it is the only plausible explanation put forth other than "plot" or "magic" There is a number of factors that can cause miscarriages, and Rhaella seems to be an exception rather than the rule. Moreover, there is nothing indicating that her issues are in any way connected to the mental condition running in the family. Besides, does Red Keep even have any piping? I seem to recall women fetching water from the well, the good old medieval style, no such fancy stuff like aquaducts and the like. On 5. 8. 2015 at 4:38 AM, Nuncle Karstark said: What, like incest? *Facepalm* Incest by itself doesn't cause mental illness. However, once the "mad gene" entered the pool, it has a higher chance to be passed on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isobel Harper Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 There appears to have been a plot to remove Targaryens from the throne before Rhaegar ran away with Lyanna, and Mad Aerys' call for Ned and Robert's execution. Lady Dustin points out Rickard Stark's southern ambitions were due to his maester whispering into his ear. (The maester was a Hightower bastard, no?) The alliance of Lord Paramounts(Catelyn and Brandon's engagement, the attempted engagement between Lysa to Jaime, Ned and Robert time of foster in the Vale) hints at a broader connection, probably also initiated via maesters. It's theorized (in the forums and in the books) that the maesters poisoned the last dragons after The Dance. (And actually, these last dragons showed signs of lead poisoning, like stunted growth and sickliness.) Perhaps KL's maester was poisoning the king and queen as well? If Aerys and Rhaella were discovered to have lead poisoning, no one would think to blame a maester; lead remains in the body for a long time, and the source could have been from anywhere or almost at any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 50 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said: There appears to have been a plot to remove Targaryens from the throne before Rhaegar ran away with Lyanna, and Mad Aerys' call for Ned and Robert's execution. Lady Dustin points out Rickard Stark's southern ambitions were due to his maester whispering into his ear. (The maester was a Hightower bastard, no?) The alliance of Lord Paramounts(Catelyn and Brandon's engagement, the attempted engagement between Lysa to Jaime, Ned and Robert time of foster in the Vale) hints at a broader connection, probably also initiated via maesters. It's theorized (in the forums and in the books) that the maesters poisoned the last dragons after The Dance. (And actually, these last dragons showed signs of lead poisoning, like stunted growth and sickliness.) Perhaps KL's maester was poisoning the king and queen as well? If Aerys and Rhaella were discovered to have lead poisoning, no one would think to blame a maester; lead remains in the body for a long time, and the source could have been from anywhere or almost at any time. There would have been no reason to make some obscure alliance among the great houses to eradicate the Targaryens if they could be poisoned. Just poison them and the throne goes to Steffon or Robert Baratheon by default. Summerhall was a great opening. Jaehaerys II survived that only for three years, and then it was only a child, Aerys II, Rhaella (and possibly their mother). They could have been taken out pretty easily. This southron ambition thing doesn't have anything to do with an anti-Targaryen plot. And if the Citadel was behind that it acts much more subtly and not through the lords. If they could kill the dragons they could have killed their masters, too. In fact, they could have killed Aegon III and Viserys II just as easily as their dragons. And then that would have been the end of the Targaryen dynasty all those years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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