Hos the Hostage

If Sansa is a skinchanger, how&when will she start manifesting it?

65 posts in this topic

 

I checked out that link and searched within the topic for content about Sansa, but couldn't find what you refer to, Eisfee... could you give more detail about what they discuss?

 

(ETA: fixed a typo)

I'm sorry I don't have the time to reread all of it. But I think it must have been somewhere around Post 73 when they discuss a Sansa chapter.

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That is a good point, I honestly do not know where Sansa arc will progress. After reading the sample chapter, something is bond to go wrong ever since the mad mouse is reintroduce in the story. LF is a puzzling character that everything is going his way and yet his flaw maybe Sansa, but I see no indication of him making dump decisions (unlike his show counterpart).

 

I can not disagree with what you have said here. The Mad Mouse may indeed change things beyond what anyone has planned.

 

Beyond Sansa, whom is probably his most major flaw in that he won't look past her, he also has always had a problem with over-confidence. You certainly would not try to cross swords with someone older and much more capable than yourself unless you thought you could win. He may have changed tactics, no longer wishing to grasp a sword, but he still thinks he can beat anyone. He is an excellent player of that there is no doubt, but he believes himself supreme at the game when he is only one of many equally capable players some of whom have better connections to win with. He refuses to see himself as the lord of barren rocks with little other than himself to to support him. Even Varys' "little birds" give him a greater edge in that they are loyal to Varys' cause. Can LF say that of anyone?

 

While he hasn't made any overtly bad descions and has retreated to a place of relative safety, he has also somewhat cut himself off from information and opportunities and started pursuing a more singular game than previously and that singularity of purpose may make it easier to derail. Not a dumb decision in and of itself but maybe easier to thwart. He is always full of suprises so it's difficult to ever count him out.

 

As far as the show goes, I try to give them credit for even being able to capture what they have been able to do so far. They have to, because of time constraints, choose to include certain things probably based on perception of ratings and to leave other things out. This is never really what bugs me. What bugs me is when they make changes to the characters or the scenes they choose to include too much. This last 5th season is the most glaring example of that. All in all a decent enough job just leave the characters and scenes they include alone as much as possible.

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Kind of on topic, but a bit of a tangent:

From Varymyr we know that the human consciousness can move into their animal upon the human body's death.

Are there any indications that it works the other way? For example, could Lady's consciousness move into Sansa?

It's a purely hypothetical question. In order to answer it one needs to hypothetically assume Sansa is/was a warg. Or I guess, hypothetically pretend Ghost died instead of Jon.

Either way, purely hypothetical. Just a curious thought I've had - it has far reaching implications over and above Sansa, but so far she's the only "warg" we know who lost their animal.

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Kind of on topic, but a bit of a tangent:

From Varymyr we know that the human consciousness can move into their animal upon the human body's death.

Are there any indications that it works the other way? For example, could Lady's consciousness move into Sansa?

It's a purely hypothetical question. In order to answer it one needs to hypothetically assume Sansa is/was a warg. Or I guess, hypothetically pretend Ghost died instead of Jon.

Either way, purely hypothetical. Just a curious thought I've had - it has far reaching implications over and above Sansa, but so far she's the only "warg" we know who lost their animal.

 

 

There is no evidence in the text of animals living a "second life", which the text refers to it as, in humans.

 

We have evidence of Varamyr doing it, probably in set up for JS, and we have evidence of CotF "minds" in ravens per Bran in the "Cave of Horrors", when he skinchanges one and there is another "conciousness" or "soul" in there when he enters the mind of the raven. This is probably as back up independent supporting evidence to the happenings of the prologue whatever it's intent. Plus Bran gets to fly so.....

 

I can find no evidence of animals warging people. I can't even find a particular indication by extrapolation either.

 

I may be wrong but I got nothing on it.

 

 

ETA spelling & clarification

Edited by Bran the Bringer

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Thank you Bran the Bringer!

I hadn't found any indications of it either, I was just wondering if someone had caught something I didn't. But, it's an idea I can't seem to get out of my head, no matter the lack of evidence I find! Not that I'm convinced it can or will happen. It's just an idea that I can't unstick!

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Well in the books it seemed like he may have even been playing her about Harry the Heir, and secretly grooming her to be his own bride.

 

 

 

 

But how could that be the case as in the show he literally married her off to a a sadistic sociopath and then bounced?

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Isn't there a SSM that confirmed all the Stark children were skinchangers?


Yes, but that's not the question. The OP asked "How might her skinchanging manifest?"

We have no evidence that she ever warged Lady, so if we take GRRM at his word, how will it start now that Lady's gone? Or is it possible that if she never creates the necessary bond with another animal, she's a skinchanger that never knows she is a skinchanger?

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Thank you Bran the Bringer!



I hadn't found any indications of it either, I was just wondering if someone had caught something I didn't. But, it's an idea I can't seem to get out of my head, no matter the lack of evidence I find! Not that I'm convinced it can or will happen. It's just an idea that I can't unstick!

I'm now imagining Lady warging Sansa. Sansa suddenly starts baring her teeth, growling, sniffing at Petyr's ass, etc. hahaha. Do you really think animals will warg people in future books? It takes a special kind of human warg to warg another human, let alone an animal becoming so advanced in practice to be able to possess a human. 

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I feel like she's missing her training wheel, Lady, so it will be really tough. Everybody else developed via a closeness to their wolves, and before you say Arya/Nym had as much time together and Sansa and Lady, Arya spent more high quality time with Nym, whilst Sansa had Lady sit at her feet while she practiced her stitching.

I find it really fun that Bran had to cross a frozen wasteland to find an ancient tree mentor to teach him to see the through the eyes of a crow, while Arya just discovered it via her training with the FM.

Edited by Whitering

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I'm now imagining Lady warging Sansa. Sansa suddenly starts baring her teeth, growling, sniffing at Petyr's ass, etc. hahaha. Do you really think animals will warg people in future books? It takes a special kind of human warg to warg another human, let alone an animal becoming so advanced in practice to be able to possess a human. 

No, I don't "expect" anything - like I said in my comment, it is merely an idea stuck in my head, not anything I think can or will happen.  But I do think there is a "piece" of Lady left in Sansa, just as there are bits of the original skinchangers in the ravens Bran is learning with.  I think it is a connection that goes both ways, and if a bit of the soul of a skinchanger can stay in their animal then why wouldn't a bit of the soul of the animal stay in a skinchanger?  It's mentioned in Varamyr's chapter that the beast can affect change in the warg/skinchanger, as much as the warg/skinchanger affects a change in the beasts.  Haggon says it.  It's a two-way connection - I don't think Lady will "take over" Sansa, but I thinks she's still there, deep down, right next to instinct and gut feelings. 

I feel like she's missing her training wheel, Lady, so it will be really tough. Everybody else developed via a closeness to their wolves, and before you say Arya/Nym had as much time together and Sansa and Lady, Arya spent more high quality time with Nym, whilst Sansa had Lady sit at her feet while she practiced her stitching.

I find it really fun that Bran had to cross a frozen wasteland to find an ancient tree mentor to teach him to see the through the eyes of a crow, while Arya just discovered it via her training with the FM.

A warg is a warg - she doesn't necessarily need Lady, per se, just any other wolf, dog or direwolf to bond with. Varamyr created that bond with three different wolves at the same time, and kicked someone else out of their wolf. "Will she" is an entirely different question, but given the info we have she certainly could if George deems it necessary.

We have, literally, no idea what type of stuff Sansa and Lady did together. Literally, nothing. The single day we have of Sansa's POV before Lady dies is NOT enough to even make a half-assed guess. Sansa clearly trained Lady wonderfully, which goes to show that she obviously spent time doing something *other* than sewing. But beyond that...she left Lady behind during her single POV with Lady, and she seemed taken aback by the suggestion. To assume that Lady was any less important to Sansa than any of the other wolves were to their Starks is misreading Sansa. 

Edited by Jak Scaletongue

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On 1/16/2016 at 6:34 PM, Jak Scaletongue said:

No, I don't "expect" anything - like I said in my comment, it is merely an idea stuck in my head, not anything I think can or will happen.  But I do think there is a "piece" of Lady left in Sansa, just as there are bits of the original skinchangers in the ravens Bran is learning with.  I think it is a connection that goes both ways, and if a bit of the soul of a skinchanger can stay in their animal then why wouldn't a bit of the soul of the animal stay in a skinchanger?  It's mentioned in Varamyr's chapter that the beast can affect change in the warg/skinchanger, as much as the warg/skinchanger affects a change in the beasts.  Haggon says it.  It's a two-way connection - I don't think Lady will "take over" Sansa, but I thinks she's still there, deep down, right next to instinct and gut feelings. 

A warg is a warg - she doesn't necessarily need Lady, per se, just any other wolf, dog or direwolf to bond with. Varamyr created that bond with three different wolves at the same time, and kicked someone else out of their wolf. "Will she" is an entirely different question, but given the info we have she certainly could if George deems it necessary.

We have, literally, no idea what type of stuff Sansa and Lady did together. Literally, nothing. The single day we have of Sansa's POV before Lady dies is NOT enough to even make a half-assed guess. Sansa clearly trained Lady wonderfully, which goes to show that she obviously spent time doing something *other* than sewing. But beyond that...she left Lady behind during her single POV with Lady, and she seemed taken aback by the suggestion. To assume that Lady was any less important to Sansa than any of the other wolves were to their Starks is misreading Sansa. 

Yes, we can, prior to Lady's death, Sansa is acting the courtly princess with Joffrey, she didn't even have Lady with her when she went strolling with Joff.

And while I agree a skinchanger is a skinchanger, and a warg may be a warg. Arya and Bran are skinchangers, we don't know about Jon or Sansa, Jon is definitely a warg.

They are two different things, but skinchangers are also wargs. I suppose Sansa may develop a closeness with another animal and then we'll know if she is a skingchanger, I highly doubt she'll be getting close to any wolves.

I am not saying she can't, just that in her present circumstance we've not seen any evidence that she is spending any great amount of time with any creature.

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What happens to skinchangers who cannot return to their human bodies? The Varamyr chapter tells us, that they lose their human identity over time. Maybe Mormont's raven is someone gone lost and maybe this could be Sansa's fate in the end - if she is a warg at all.

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12 hours ago, Whitering said:

Yes, we can, prior to Lady's death, Sansa is acting the courtly princess with Joffrey, she didn't even have Lady with her when she went strolling with Joff.

And while I agree a skinchanger is a skinchanger, and a warg may be a warg. Arya and Bran are skinchangers, we don't know about Jon or Sansa, Jon is definitely a warg.

They are two different things, but skinchangers are also wargs. I suppose Sansa may develop a closeness with another animal and then we'll know if she is a skingchanger, I highly doubt she'll be getting close to any wolves.

I am not saying she can't, just that in her present circumstance we've not seen any evidence that she is spending any great amount of time with any creature.

I am pretty sure her quick and unusual bonding with the dog at the Fingers was meant to hint that she does have this latent ability. A bit more time with that dog and she would have done it.

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On 8/20/2015 at 4:24 PM, Jak Scaletongue said:

Thank you Bran the Bringer!

I hadn't found any indications of it either, I was just wondering if someone had caught something I didn't. But, it's an idea I can't seem to get out of my head, no matter the lack of evidence I find! Not that I'm convinced it can or will happen. It's just an idea that I can't unstick!

The reason why is it's given to us in Varamyr's chapter. Being that I just re-read that chapter, I'll quote it for you:

 
Quote

 

My brothers. My pack. Many a cold night he had slept with his wolves, their shaggy bodies piled up around him to help keep him warm. When I die they will feast upon my flesh and leave only bones to greet the thaw come spring. The thought was queerly comforting. His wolves had often foraged for him as they roamed; it seemed only fitting that he should feed them in the end. He might well begin his second life tearing at the warm dead flesh of his own corpse.
 
Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change."
 
Other beasts were best left alone, the hunter had declared. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man became a coward. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels … Haggon did not hold with such. "Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won't like what you'd become." Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. "Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who've tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue."

 

 
So, I'd say that there's more than enough evidence for speculation (at the very least) that a small part of Lady could be living inside of Sansa. Why? Because wolves are "special" in that they "wed for life", and both the wolf and the human are changed from that day forward.

This also slays the idea that Sansa will take Nymeria that I've seen floating around here, as wolves don't bond like that according to the book.
Edited by WhitewolfStark

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14 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I am pretty sure her quick and unusual bonding with the dog at the Fingers was meant to hint that she does have this latent ability. A bit more time with that dog and she would have done it.

To quote Varamyr:

Quote

Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see.

So, the fact that the dog was bonding so easily also comes from the fact that they are the easiest beasts to bond with, which helps support your idea. :)

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19 hours ago, Whitering said:

Yes, we can, prior to Lady's death, Sansa is acting the courtly princess with Joffrey, she didn't even have Lady with her when she went strolling with Joff.

And while I agree a skinchanger is a skinchanger, and a warg may be a warg. Arya and Bran are skinchangers, we don't know about Jon or Sansa, Jon is definitely a warg.

They are two different things, but skinchangers are also wargs. I suppose Sansa may develop a closeness with another animal and then we'll know if she is a skingchanger, I highly doubt she'll be getting close to any wolves.

I am not saying she can't, just that in her present circumstance we've not seen any evidence that she is spending any great amount of time with any creature.

Prior to Lady's death, we have a single Sansa POV that consists of a few hours.  In that POV we have Septa Mordane telling Sansa she's as bad as Arya when it comes to the wolves, and she only left Lady because Joff insisted (and acting the courtly princess is EXACTLY what was expected of Sansa, and if we've learned anything from Sansa's early POV's it's that she was eager to please everyone; her mother, father, her new betrothed and his parents, Septa Mordane, etc, etc, etc. - any adult with even a partial stake in her life).

Quote

Joffrey glanced back at Lady, who was following at their heels. "Your wolf is liable to frighten the horses, and my dog seems to frighten you. Let us leave them both behind and set off on our own, what do you say?"

Sansa hesitated.  "If you like," she said uncertainly. "I suppose I could tie Lady up."  She did not quite understand, though. "I didn't know you had a dog..."

Hesitation and uncertainty about leaving Lady behind - sure sounds like someone who is used to having her wolf around constantly.  And, to be fair, at this point in the books, it's not a completely unreasonable request from Joffrey - the wolf will frighten the horses, that's natural.  And he even offers "tit for tat" - you leave your bodyguard and I'll leave mine.  She even knows she would have to tie Lady to stop Lady from following.  She is clearly used to and expects Lady to follow her around.

But really, the only point I'm making is you can't take a few hours worth of time and assume that's everything.  If (for some unknown reason) you had any reason to see into *my* life for a few hours, you'd be making judgements based on inaccurate and spotty observation.  If you saw last Saturday, for example, you may conclude my daughter is an absolute angel - if you saw Friday instead you may conclude my daughter is a spoiled rotten little brat.  She's not either, but she's six and we all have our moments - and we only saw a few moments of Sansa's life with Lady.  We can't make a concrete conclusion based on that.  And it seems clear, to me anyway, that leaving Lady behind was not the norm. (And you'd have an "omnipresent" look into my life, hypothetically - we've got "unreliable narrator" with Sansa; she's got her rose-coloured glasses firmly on in AGOT)

 

7 hours ago, Woman of War said:

What happens to skinchangers who cannot return to their human bodies? The Varamyr chapter tells us, that they lose their human identity over time. Maybe Mormont's raven is someone gone lost and maybe this could be Sansa's fate in the end - if she is a warg at all.

Wasn't that only in death, when they had no living body to return to?  Cause Sansa still has a human body...I think if she never wargs/skinchanges, she just dies like any other person.  There's bound to have been plenty of skinchangers over the years who never knew what they could do and lived their lives as everyone else does and died just like everyone else dies.  She'd have to skinchange into something first, until she does that it's hard to say.

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Sorry, actually I meant a situation where Sansa cannot return to her human body because it is dead - or because she left right before her body was going to die. And yes, Sansa would have to know she can escape death by warging into an animal or, in extremis, into another human. And so far she doesn't have the slightest idea.

I am only asking because those "little bird" hints make me think that she might end up as one.

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29 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

Sorry, actually I meant a situation where Sansa cannot return to her human body because it is dead - or because she left right before her body was going to die. And yes, Sansa would have to know she can escape death by warging into an animal or, in extremis, into another human. And so far she doesn't have the slightest idea.

I am only asking because those "little bird" hints make me think that she might end up as one.

Do you think you have to know? The first time it ever happened would have involved, kind of like Jon, a skinchanger reaching out for one of their animals at the moment of death, and realizing, oh, I am now living as a dog/wolf/bear. If Sansa bonds closely with a dog or bird or something such that it is the last thought she has, I bet she would have a second life even if she's never heard about skinchanging at all.

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Yes, I'm sure you are right. It might be an act of despair, without knowing at all what she does. Thus she escapes death and yet loses her human existence.

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