Hos the Hostage

If Sansa is a skinchanger, how&when will she start manifesting it?

65 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Woman of War said:

Sorry, actually I meant a situation where Sansa cannot return to her human body because it is dead - or because she left right before her body was going to die. And yes, Sansa would have to know she can escape death by warging into an animal or, in extremis, into another human. And so far she doesn't have the slightest idea.

I am only asking because those "little bird" hints make me think that she might end up as one.

Yeah, that occurred to me as I was typing, but I was too far in to delete it all!

Does Jon even know he can do it?  He knows he can warg into Ghost (even if he's avoided naming it as such so far...), but has he been taught that he can have a "second life"?  I know Varamyr went into the technicalities, but that was in his prologue, in his head, wasn't it?  Jon hasn't been told by another skinchanger that it's possible, has he?

I've seen some people saying the "little bird" comments may mean she could possibly skinchange a bird (I've seen ravens, falcons and even songbirds).  But who knows!  These kids have a lot to learn in two books!

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On 1/19/2016 at 1:52 AM, Hippocras said:

I am pretty sure her quick and unusual bonding with the dog at the Fingers was meant to hint that she does have this latent ability. A bit more time with that dog and she would have done it.

Or perhaps she might have already done so.  Remember, a warg sees through the animal's eyes, and this dog is blind.  She could have "dreamed" (i.e. warged) and not have been fully aware of what she was "dreaming."

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Well, she hasn't been near alot of animals as well. Probably when she goes North.

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This goes back to a question of if you are a warg or greenseer, how do you activate your skill? 

Some people believe all you need is an animal to bond with. It's seems pretty obvious that bloodraven setup the meeting of the young Starks and the wolf pups for this purpose.

but we never see the Starks warg until some traumatic events happen.

bran doesn't start warging until after his fall from the tower. Jon probably just warged after his knife attack, now with arya, perhaps it took seeing her father killed for the inner power to come out. With rob, I'm assuming it took war for his warging to come out.

side note, jojen mentions how he doesn't have his green dreams until getting so sick that he nearly dies.

and going back to bran, we learn that jojen paste can work to increase their power, or is it death sacrifice that increases it..

Edited by tallTale

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On 8/6/2015 at 10:38 PM, Hos the Hostage said:

A huge part of Sansa's Stark identity was cut off when Lady was killed. Unlike her siblings, she can't have wolf dreams. But wargs and skinchangers are born, not made. If wargs can't be made, then they can't be unmade either, right? Arya's power to skinchange becomes stronger when she becomes blind. It is expected that Jon's warging powers will be stronger during his limbo state. What is your theory on how (if it happens) Sansa will use her skinchanging powers? Is there any foreshadowing in the text, other than 'she turned to a wolf with wings and flew out of a window'?

Aside from her attracting hounds, referring to her in avian terms, nothing in the text that I recall hints at how, or when, she discovers her warg abilities.  GRRM hasn't needed Sansa to use a warg's ability as yet, either to forward her arc, or affect events in general.

Personal theory is Bran, through the WeirWoodNet, tracks down his siblings, and contacts them via dreams, slowly guiding them back together.  Figure that'd awaken Sansa's dorment warg ability, maybe with aid via BranVision.  Which animal she'd warg is debatable, but in this theory, I lean towards a raptor-type hawk or falcon.   Really dependent on her situation and place at that time though.

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On 06/08/2015 at 4:38 AM, Hos the Hostage said:

A huge part of Sansa's Stark identity was cut off when Lady was killed. Unlike her siblings, she can't have wolf dreams. But wargs and skinchangers are born, not made. If wargs can't be made, then they can't be unmade either, right? Arya's power to skinchange becomes stronger when she becomes blind. It is expected that Jon's warging powers will be stronger during his limbo state. What is your theory on how (if it happens) Sansa will use her skinchanging powers? Is there any foreshadowing in the text, other than 'she turned to a wolf with wings and flew out of a window'?

Not just a wolf with wings, but a wolf with leather wings like a bat - in other words, with wings like a dragon

Why does no-one ever suggest dragons as part of Sansa's future?

The next stage in the story has got to be a mighty power struggle for control of the dragons by all possible means: targ blood, sorcerous horns, food possibly, skinchanging powers definitely.

And why Sansa? Well, the smaller dragons may find themselves looking for a substitute Dany, as I don't think Drogon will want to share any more.

The bird symbolism works here too - in Patchface's prophecy, birds are going to have scales instead of feathers.

I don't suppose dragons are the easiest project for a beginner skinchanger, but Bloodraven/Bran could do it. And then, we've pointedly been told that the second contact is easier.

It's a big leap forward in Sansa's capabilities, but let's face it, she needs it. However good you are at the game of thrones, powerful people aren't going to listen much to a young teenage girl. Unless, like Dany, she has a dragon.

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16 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Not just a wolf with wings, but a wolf with leather wings like a bat - in other words, with wings like a dragon

Why does no-one ever suggest dragons as part of Sansa's future?

The next stage in the story has got to be a mighty power struggle for control of the dragons by all possible means: targ blood, sorcerous horns, food possibly, skinchanging powers definitely.

And why Sansa? Well, the smaller dragons may find themselves looking for a substitute Dany, as I don't think Drogon will want to share any more.

The bird symbolism works here too - in Patchface's prophecy, birds are going to have scales instead of feathers.

I don't suppose dragons are the easiest project for a beginner skinchanger, but Bloodraven/Bran could do it. And then, we've pointedly been told that the second contact is easier.

It's a big leap forward in Sansa's capabilities, but let's face it, she needs it. However good you are at the game of thrones, powerful people aren't going to listen much to a young teenage girl. Unless, like Dany, she has a dragon.

We discussed the similarity between bats and dragons in my recent Bat and Wolf thread.  Here are a few highlights: The Harpy is a woman in power with wings of a "dragon or bat."  Dragons are reminiscent to bats in the tale when the second moon broke and brought the first dragons into the world, that is the imagery is similar to bats exiting a cave.  Viserion is connected to imagery of a bat.  Bats were proposed to be some sort of First Men equivalent to dragons.

It's not clear if dragons can be skinchanged.  If so, doing so would be very difficult, and not likely (?) something Sansa could acheive.  I do recall, however, that Viserion was drawn to the woman, not to Quentyn, when Quentyn attempted to tame Viserion. 

In short, there is a connection between bats and dragons, and both Sansa and Viserion are connected to imagery of a bat, but I'm not quite sure what these connections mean.

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On 7/4/2016 at 7:03 AM, Isobel Harper said:

We discussed the similarity between bats and dragons in my recent Bat and Wolf thread.  Here are a few highlights: The Harpy is a woman in power with wings of a "dragon or bat."  Dragons are reminiscent to bats in the tale when the second moon broke and brought the first dragons into the world, that is the imagery is similar to bats exiting a cave.  Viserion is connected to imagery of a bat.  Bats were proposed to be some sort of First Men equivalent to dragons.

It's not clear if dragons can be skinchanged.  If so, doing so would be very difficult, and not likely (?) something Sansa could acheive.  I do recall, however, that Viserion was drawn to the woman, not to Quentyn, when Quentyn attempted to tame Viserion. 

In short, there is a connection between bats and dragons, and both Sansa and Viserion are connected to imagery of a bat, but I'm not quite sure what these connections mean.

Viserion is predicted to be bonded with Tyrion, and if Tyrion flies Viserion to the Vale where Sansa is.. that could be a connection. As to why he would be at Vale, Tyrion has debts(good and bad) to pay to a number of people at the Vale - LF, Sweetrobin, Mord, Mountain Clans, even Sansa.

Edited by Hos the Hostage

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10 hours ago, Hos the Hostage said:

Viserion is predicted to be bonded with Tyrion, and if Tyrion flies Viserion to the Vale where Sansa is.. that could be a connection. As to why he would be at Vale, Tyrion has debts(good and bad) to pay to a number of people at the Vale - LF, Sweetrobin, Mord, Mountain Clans, even Sansa.

I've considered that, but while I think Tyrion will try, I don't think he will succeed.  Others have predicted that he will convince Brown Ben Plumm to ride Viserion.  Perhaps they invade the Vale?

As for Viserion, I predict that he will have 3 riders, or 3 people attempting to ride him.  If the former, then we have yet to see any of the three: perhaps Plumm is the first.  If the latter, Quentyn was the first attempt, and the next to attempt will also fail.  Foreshadowing of these three is here, in The Hedge Knight.

One man-at-arms was dangling the puppets of Florian and Jonquil from his hands as another set them afire with a torch. Three more men were opening chests, spilling more puppets on the ground and stamping on them. The dragon puppet was scattered all about them, a broken wing here, its head there, its tail in three pieces. And in the midst of it all stood Prince Aerion, resplendent in a red velvet doublet with long dagged sleeves, twisting Tanselle's arm in both hands.

This parallels the placement of Dany's eggs on Drogo's funeral pyre - Drogon's egg under Drogo's arm, Rhaegal's next to his head, and Viserion's between his legs: arm/wing, head, between the legs/tail.  The order is even the same.

She climbed the pyre herself to place the eggs around her sun-and-stars. The black beside his heart, under his arm. The green beside his head, his braid coiled around it. The cream-and-gold down between his legs.

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18 hours ago, Hos the Hostage said:

Viserion is predicted to be bonded with Tyrion, and if Tyrion flies Viserion to the Vale where Sansa is.. that could be a connection. As to why he would be at Vale, Tyrion has debts(good and bad) to pay to a number of people at the Vale - LF, Sweetrobin, Mord, Mountain Clans, even Sansa.

There is a good quote to support this:

AGOT - TYRION VII

"Tyrion was about to tell his lord father how he proposed to reduce the Vale of Arryn to a smoking wasteland, but he was never given the chance."

 

I'd very much like to see a dragon at the Vale. A storyteller like GRRM could have huge fun with all these classic fairytale elements in place: we'd have 1) a beautiful maiden, 2) a tall, inaccessible tower, 3) many, many brave knights, and 4) a dragon.

It really feels like a set piece for Sansa, a storyline designed to show what fairytale princesses could do if they had to. Who knows? Maybe this time it will be the dragon living in a high tower, and the maiden will have to deal with him herself.

(I'm getting a bit desperate for Sansa to prove herself, as you can tell.)

 

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7 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

As for Viserion, I predict that he will have 3 riders, or 3 people attempting to ride him.  If the former, then we have yet to see any of the three: perhaps Plumm is the first.  If the latter, Quentyn was the first attempt, and the next to attempt will also fail.  Foreshadowing of these three is here, in The Hedge Knight.

One man-at-arms was dangling the puppets of Florian and Jonquil from his hands as another set them afire with a torch. Three more men were opening chests, spilling more puppets on the ground and stamping on them. The dragon puppet was scattered all about them, a broken wing here, its head there, its tail in three pieces. And in the midst of it all stood Prince Aerion, resplendent in a red velvet doublet with long dagged sleeves, twisting Tanselle's arm in both hands.

This parallels the placement of Dany's eggs on Drogo's funeral pyre - Drogon's egg under Drogo's arm, Rhaegal's next to his head, and Viserion's between his legs: arm/wing, head, between the legs/tail.  The order is even the same.

She climbed the pyre herself to place the eggs around her sun-and-stars. The black beside his heart, under his arm. The green beside his head, his braid coiled around it. The cream-and-gold down between his legs.

I love predictions and this one is very neat.  Thanks also for the Bat and the Wolf thread which is full of good observations bearing on this - I think my next post belongs better there than here.

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On 8/17/2015 at 4:09 PM, W. Wrycthen said:

Wargs can teleport inside multiple creatures though. So your corresponding direwolf dying doesn't necessarily preclude the ability itself, rite?

This is really and truly nit picking here, and I truly didn't write this as a criticism of what you wrote!  Only a small thing it is, really,  but your question just reminded me of the "Warg and Skinchanger" thing that gets a lot of words in book 5....A "Warg" (noun) is a person who can enter the skin of just wolves.  No other creatures, just wolves.  The act of doing that seems to also be a verb: "Warging" "warged" - that is the sum of what we're told. Not sure why there should even be any distinction.  Why not call them all "Skinchangers" instead of muddying the issue by mentioning "Wargs". All 3 of the "skinchangers" we've met (Orell and his eagles, Varamyr six-skins, and Bran) can go into multiple creatures, not just wolves. So far the distinction of "warg" vs "Skinchanger" seems to be irrelevant.  Every "warg" we have seen can enter and become, more then one creature.  

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10 hours ago, Not_A_Quokka said:

This is really and truly nit picking here, and I truly didn't write this as a criticism of what you wrote!  Only a small thing it is, really,  but your question just reminded me of the "Warg and Skinchanger" thing that gets a lot of words in book 5....A "Warg" (noun) is a person who can enter the skin of just wolves.  No other creatures, just wolves.  The act of doing that seems to also be a verb: "Warging" "warged" - that is the sum of what we're told. Not sure why there should even be any distinction.  Why not call them all "Skinchangers" instead of muddying the issue by mentioning "Wargs". All 3 of the "skinchangers" we've met (Orell and his eagles, Varamyr six-skins, and Bran) can go into multiple creatures, not just wolves. So far the distinction of "warg" vs "Skinchanger" seems to be irrelevant.  Every "warg" we have seen can enter and become, more then one creature.  

 

Hmm.So all skinchangers are wargs, but not all wargs are skinchangers, and then one in 1000 is a greenseer.

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The Skinchanging ability seems to be present in all the children, or that should be the case early on anyway.

Notice that Lady begins to pick up Sansa's traits, similar to how the other wolves begin to manifest the personality of their child. This imprinting process can be used as evidence to show that a connection was being built between the kids and the wolves, to which they had an affinity (hence the term warg being used to describe them, since wargs are people that can possess wolves).  

That said, skinchanging is like a muscle. It has to be used to grow in strength, and months before anyone other than Bran had a wolf dream, Lady was put down by Ned. She never began to flex her skinchanger muscle. Instead, Sansa has had to rely on her wit and the lessons she learned at court to navigate the game of thrones. Her story is more political than any of the other children's, so she may never need to develop her ability. However, should she find herself in dire need (ha), I'm sure that ability would strengthen in her, similar to how Arya's ability only truly manifested once her sight was taken away. 

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On 4/21/2016 at 4:18 AM, Not_A_Quokka said:

This is really and truly nit picking here, and I truly didn't write this as a criticism of what you wrote!  Only a small thing it is, really,  but your question just reminded me of the "Warg and Skinchanger" thing that gets a lot of words in book 5....A "Warg" (noun) is a person who can enter the skin of just wolves.  No other creatures, just wolves.  The act of doing that seems to also be a verb: "Warging" "warged" - that is the sum of what we're told. Not sure why there should even be any distinction.  Why not call them all "Skinchangers" instead of muddying the issue by mentioning "Wargs". All 3 of the "skinchangers" we've met (Orell and his eagles, Varamyr six-skins, and Bran) can go into multiple creatures, not just wolves. So far the distinction of "warg" vs "Skinchanger" seems to be irrelevant.  Every "warg" we have seen can enter and become, more then one creature.  

From my understanding, Warg and Skinchanger are the one and the same thing. The only difference is that Warg is derogatory expression of Skinchanger, which is what a person really is. Sort of like having having a female Magician called Wizard is respectful, while calling her a Witch is not.

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On 4/29/2016 at 0:47 PM, Masha said:

From my understanding, Warg and Skinchanger are the one and the same thing. The only difference is that Warg is derogatory expression of Skinchanger, which is what a person really is. Sort of like having having a female Magician called Wizard is respectful, while calling her a Witch is not.

Warg has only ever been used in the books to denote the act of skinchanging between a person into an dog/wolf. Martin himself confirmed it about a decade ago. 

So Spake Martin

All Wargs are Skinchangers. Not all Skinchangers are Wargs. 

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I think that door was closed to her when Lady died. The Stark children seem to have a strong connection to their respective wolves and I believe it is this connection that forms the rich soil from which their abilities can take root. Quite sad really. So much has been taken from her.

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There are a series of threads floating around stating that Sansa has been warging since the Battle of the Blackwater.  But just not in the usual way.

Namely that The Hound has been warged.  Somewhat, he's charmed by her, tones down usual brutal instinks around her, which is completely foreign to his character, especially when he displayed such contempt for her from the get-go.

Same thing goes for Sweetrobin. 

And finally, Petyr did some absolutely stupid stuff for her, namely kissing her in the very public courtyard of The Eyrie when Lysa was around.

I'll try to dig up the better written, extensively argued and well sourced thread, but in the meantime I thought I'd throw this out for y'all to chew on.

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She never will, imo 

Without extended exposure to the wolf,  her talents never got off the ground. 

I might have been the world's foremost soccer player,  but without childhood practice or teenage interest I have no shot of going pro in my adult life. 

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