Arystan Posted September 6, 2015 Share Posted September 6, 2015 @Rhaenys_Targaryen thanks a lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoon89 Posted September 6, 2015 Share Posted September 6, 2015 Apparently the WoIaF app is canon, and there are numerous entries (Jeyne Westerling, her parents, a few others) that state that Tywin ordered them to spark a romance between Robb and Jeyne. I much prefer the idea that he was told that it was already happening and greased the wheels a little, instead of Robb just falling for whichever female got shoved under his nose. Maybe Tywin could have just dressed up in drag like Bugs Bunny used to do to Elmer Fudd and have him smitten on the spot. Once the Crag (and the Westerlings are under Robb's control) communications between Sybell and Tywin would be improbable. Look at what Jamie's first thoughts on the subject are when he hears of the marriage from Roose. "My father has a good many bannermen, and most of them have daughters." Jaime groped one-handed for his goblet, trying to recall this Jeyne. The Westerlings were an old house, with more pride than power. Its far more likely that after the Battle of Oxcross, that Tywin sent messages to his vassals with the weakest defenses, ergo Sybell and he conspired and came to their agreement prior to the taking of the Crag. In the conversation when Tyrion learns of the marriage note what Tywin tells Tyrion. "Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son." And the line from what Kevan says in the same scene. "A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps..." This leads me to believe that Sybell gave up her maidenhead to Gawen and he wed her. It also wouldn't hurt that she likely had a hefty dowry and brought more wealth into the relationship than the Westerlings had since their gold mines had dried up. I know I've read some speculation that there had been a love spell or other enchantment involved. Jeyne's mom was the granddaughter of Maggy the Frog so it's not out of the realm of possibility. I doubt that a love potion was needed but it is a possibility, I think the only love potion was teenage hormones, no supervision and some relative privacy. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isobel Harper Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 I read somewhere on the forums that The North had lots of silver in the northern mountains, but are unable to mine them due to depth and cost issues. I'm not sure whether it's somehow referenced in the books or if it was some sort of theory. Anyone know where this info might have come from? Google only gives me houses wit silver on their banners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I read somewhere on the forums that The North had lots of silver in the northern mountains, but are unable to mine them due to depth and cost issues. I'm not sure whether it's somehow referenced in the books or if it was some sort of theory. Anyone know where this info might have come from? Google only gives me houses wit silver on their banners. I remember Wyman Manderly wanting to become the North's new mint using silver and that there are silversmiths in White Harbor. One could assume there are silver mines nearby. "Why, no prince is ever late," the Lord of White Harbor responded amiably. "Those who arrive before him have come early, that's all." Wyman Manderly had a great booming laugh. It was small wonder he could not sit a saddle; he looked as if he outweighed most horses. As windy as he was vast, he began by asking Winterfell to confirm the new customs officers he had appointed for White Harbor. The old ones had been holding back silver for King's Landing rather than paying it over to the new King in the North. "King Robb needs his own coinage as well," he declared, "and White Harbor is the very place to mint it." He offered to take charge of the matter, as it please the king, and went from that to speak of how he had strengthened the port's defenses, detailing the cost of every improvement. Open the gate and let them pass. Easy to say, but what must follow? Giants camping in the ruins of Winterfell? Cannibals in the wolfswood, chariots sweeping across the barrowlands, free folk stealing the daughters of shipwrights and silversmiths from White Harbor and fishwives off the Stony Shore? "Are you a true king?" Jon asked suddenly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isobel Harper Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I remember Wyman Manderly wanting to become the North's new mint using silver and that there are silversmiths in White Harbor. One could assume there are silver mines nearby. "Why, no prince is ever late," the Lord of White Harbor responded amiably. "Those who arrive before him have come early, that's all." Wyman Manderly had a great booming laugh. It was small wonder he could not sit a saddle; he looked as if he outweighed most horses. As windy as he was vast, he began by asking Winterfell to confirm the new customs officers he had appointed for White Harbor. The old ones had been holding back silver for King's Landing rather than paying it over to the new King in the North. "King Robb needs his own coinage as well," he declared, "and White Harbor is the very place to mint it." He offered to take charge of the matter, as it please the king, and went from that to speak of how he had strengthened the port's defenses, detailing the cost of every improvement. Open the gate and let them pass. Easy to say, but what must follow? Giants camping in the ruins of Winterfell? Cannibals in the wolfswood, chariots sweeping across the barrowlands, free folk stealing the daughters of shipwrights and silversmiths from White Harbor and fishwives off the Stony Shore? "Are you a true king?" Jon asked suddenly. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Thanks! :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megaera Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 What's the deal with bastards born to highborn women? With the men, its usually some lord and a tavern wench where the child is raised, in most cases, by their mother. We have a couple of cases of highborn women having bastards - Delena Florent (Edric Storm) and Lollys Stokeworth (Tyrion Waters?). When it comes to inheriting anything from their mothers, would they require the same recognition and legal legitimisation as a highborn males bastard (my thinking is that a mother can't deny a child is their blood whereas a man can) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 What's the deal with bastards born to highborn women? With the men, its usually some lord and a tavern wench where the child is raised, in most cases, by their mother. We have a couple of cases of highborn women having bastards - Delena Florent (Edric Storm) and Lollys Stokeworth (Tyrion Waters?). When it comes to inheriting anything from their mothers, would they require the same recognition and legal legitimisation as a highborn males bastard (my thinking is that a mother can't deny a child is their blood whereas a man can)The reason bastards can't normally inherit without a royal proclamation is not due to a lack of proof as to their paternity. It's due to their having been born out of wedlock. Since the bastards parents were not married when the bastard was born, the bastard is illegitimate. As a consequence of being illegitimate, the bastard has no right to inheritance or to his families' arms. Whether the father acknowledges the bastard is only relevant for informal social purposes. Only a king can legitimize a bastard. Once legitimized the bastard may have a right to inherit and bear his families' arms. He is still a bastard, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megaera Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 The reason bastards can't normally inherit without a royal proclamation is not due to a lack of proof as to their paternity. It's due to their having been born out of wedlock. Since the bastards parents were not married when the bastard was born, the bastard is illegitimate. As a consequence of being illegitimate, the bastard has no right to inheritance or to his families' arms. Whether the father acknowledges the bastard is only relevant for informal social purposes. Only a king can legitimize a bastard. Once legitimized the bastard may have a right to inherit and bear his families' arms. He is still a bastard, though. So lollys son would still need to be formally legitimised before he could inherit Stokeworth (Bronn and other considerations aside) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 So lollys son would still need to be formally legitimised before he could inherit Stokeworth (Bronn and other considerations aside)Yes. Assuming Bronn and Lolys have a son, Bronn's son will become Lord of Stokeworth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megaera Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Yes. Assuming Bronn and Lolys have a son, Bronn's son will become Lord of Stokeworth. Brill, thanks for answering :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apovsic Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Yes. Assuming Bronn and Lolys have a son, Bronn's son will become Lord of Stokeworth. OK, that may sound stupid but: for being a bastard do you have to be born or conceived out of the marriage? And can Bronn claim that he is the true father of Lolly's child and then that child because legitimate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 ^In that circumstance no he can't because it is common knowledge how Lollys was raped. In a normal circumstance say out in a random castle in the Vale or something and two highborns have sex and the woman gets pregnant. It would certainly be possible to get married right away and claim the child was legitimate. There is a situation where a female Plumm gave birth more than 9 months after the husband died and the child was likely a bastard of the King, yet she claimed the child was legitimate and no 1 gave her any trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 OK, that may sound stupid but: for being a bastard do you have to be born or conceived out of the marriage? And can Bronn claim that he is the true father of Lolly's child and then that child because legitimate? I don't know about ASOIAF, but in the real world as long as your parents were married (or widowed) to each other when you were born, you were legitimate. The only way Tyrion Tanner could be legitimized would be by royal proclamation. Bronn would not need to claim him for that to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 OK, that may sound stupid but: for being a bastard do you have to be born or conceived out of the marriage? And can Bronn claim that he is the true father of Lolly's child and then that child because legitimate? Seeing as Lollys was fairly far along in her pregnancy when Bronn married her, the child does not count as legitimate. If Lollys had married Bronn within a few weeks after the conception, she could have claimed the child was his, and he would have been viewed as legitimate. When discussing the quick wedding of Sylva Santagar to Lord Eldon Estermont, Cersei suggests that Sylva might have been pregnant, saying "a bastard in the belly" could explain why she was married off so suddenly. In such a case, the idea is that the highborn woman wants to pass her child off as legitimate, or at least get married before anyone will consider her to be soiled (by discovering her pregnancy). A child is considered a bastard when at least one of the parents is highborn, and the child is conceived out of wedlock (and there is no cover-up marriage to claim the child as legitimate). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchfaces O'Houlihan Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 So Lady Stone Heart is basically Undead Lady Marian from Robin Hood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roddy Darwin Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 So... Tywin's quote about a tool for every task and a task for every tool. A Search of Ice and Fire keeps failing me but it so rarely does I'm getting scared. Please, please tell me that wasn't random HBO-only :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 So... Tywin's quote about a tool for every task and a task for every tool. A Search of Ice and Fire keeps failing me but it so rarely does I'm getting scared. Please, please tell me that wasn't random HBO-only :( "I recall what I told you. Castle Black is not Harrenhal, however. The Night's Watch is not the king's council. There is a tool for every task, and a task for every tool." http://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=%22for+every+task%22&scope%5B%5D=agot&scope%5B%5D=adwd&scope%5B%5D=twoiaf&scope%5B%5D=acok&scope%5B%5D=thk&scope%5B%5D=trp&scope%5B%5D=asos&scope%5B%5D=tss&scope%5B%5D=tpatq&scope%5B%5D=affc&scope%5B%5D=tmk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roddy Darwin Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 http://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=%22for+every+task%22&scope%5B%5D=agot&scope%5B%5D=adwd&scope%5B%5D=twoiaf&scope%5B%5D=acok&scope%5B%5D=thk&scope%5B%5D=trp&scope%5B%5D=asos&scope%5B%5D=tss&scope%5B%5D=tpatq&scope%5B%5D=affc&scope%5B%5D=tmk Yes! Thank you so much. I knew it, I knew it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ McLannister Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 A child is considered a bastard when at least one of the parents is highborn, and the child is conceived out of wedlock (and there is no cover-up marriage to claim the child as legitimate). In Medieval England at least, as long as the marriage was before the birth, the child was legitimate. The wedding would have been rushed (for nobles) to avoid scandal and ensure that no ecclesiastical challenges were brought forward. Additionally a high-born bastard whose parents wed after his birth would be considered a "canopy child" and would be legitimate in the eyes of the church, and most law. Their ability to inherit (if other claimants existed) was sometimes questioned. The Tudor claim partially rested on a legitimized canopy child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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