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Prince Lewyn's paramour identity


Lord Wraith

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Prince Lewyn Martell’s Paramour

 

Part 1

 

Prince Lewyn’s paramour has always been one of the more interesting minor mysteries of ASIOAF to me. Now many people dismiss this paramour as someone unimportant, but I disagree.  It has been mentioned in two different books and by two different characters so it must be important. Most information on Prince Lewyn and his paramour come from the chapters the Soiled Knight (AFFC) and the Discarded Knight (ADWD).

 

Spoiler TLDR version:

 

[Spoiler]

His paramour is Olenna Tyrell nee Redwyne

1)      Lewyn and Olenna of comparable age

2)     Lewyn had a paramour and Olenna had a lover before Luthor

3)     Lewyn was “as tall as a tower” and Olenna has two bodyguards both 7 feet tall who are named after famed members of the Kingsguard

4)     Barristan knows of the paramour but Jaime doesn’t suggesting it was before his time in the KG

5)     Redwyne’s are known for their red hair which could be part of the rare beauty reference

[/Spoiler]

 

I.           What is a paramour

II.         What we know of his paramour

III.       Timeline

IV.        Lewyn Martell

V.         Olenna Tyrell

VI.        Story hints

VII.      Conclusion

 

I.  What is a paramour?

 

The ASOIAF wiki simply describes a paramour as the unmarried lover of a noble.  This is the definition we will use moving forward.

 

Quotes concerning Lewyn and his paramour:

 

"Yes," she said, "that fine white cloak. You forget, my great-uncle wore the same cloak.

He died when I was little, yet I still remember him. He was as tall as a tower and used to tickle me until I could not breathe for laughing."

 

"I never had the honor to know Prince Lewyn," Ser Arys said, "but all agree that he was a great knight."

 

"A great knight with a paramour. She is an old woman now, but she was a rare beauty in her youth, men say."

 

Prince Lewyn? That tale Ser Arys had not heard. It shocked him. Terrence Toyne's treason and the deceits of Lucamore the Lusty were recorded in the White Book, but there was no hint of a woman on Prince Lewyn's page.

 

"My uncle always said that it was the sword in a man's hand that determined his worth, not the one between his legs," she went on, "so spare me all your pious talk of soiled cloaks. It is not our love that has dishonored you, it is the monsters you have served and the brutes you've called your brothers."

 

 

So do others," suggested Gerris Drinkwater. "Naharis, for one. The queen's …"

 

"… Paramour," Ser Barristan finished, before the Dornish knight could say anything that might besmirch the queen's honor. "That is what you call them down in Dorne, is it not?" He did not wait for a reply. "Prince Lewyn was my Sworn Brother. In those days there were few secrets amongst the Kingsguard. I know he kept a paramour. He did not feel there was any shame in that."

 

"No," said Quentyn, red-faced, "but …"

 

II. What we know of his paramour

 

What do we know of his Paramour?

 

·         She is an old woman now

1.       She is still alive

 

·         She was a rare beauty in her youth, men say

 

·         The Kingsguard knew about the paramour but no record was kept

1.       Barristan knew but oddly Jaime doesn’t seem to know

 

·         Arianne and Quentyn both know of the paramour

1.       The paramour must be known to House Martell

 

Since the Kingsguard (KG) kept it a secret I think that it must have been a highborn lady. It’s also interesting to note that Barristan knows about the paramour while Jaime doesn’t.  Due to that and the fact the Lewyn is older it makes me think the paramour was around before Jaime took the white.

 

I believe the paramour was Olenna Tyrell nee Redwyne. I have several reasons but first let us look at the timeline.

 

III. Timeline

 

228 AC : Olenna* is born in the Arbor

237 AC: Betrothed to Daeron Targaryen – 9 years old*

237 AC: Barristan born

240 AC: Shaera breaks betrothal with Luthor Tyrell

246 AC: Daeron breaks betrothal – 18 years old*

247 AC: Doran Martell born

256 AC : Mace Tyrell born – 28 years old*

259 AC: Tragedy at Summerhall

260 AC: War of Ninepenny Kings

 

It struck me as odd that Olenna first son Mace was born when she is 28. That is far later than we are accustomed to seeing in Westeros. Catelyn Stark was 19 when she had Robb and Cersei was 20 when she had Joffrey as a comparison. 

 

IV. Lewyn Martell

 

Doran was born in 247. Now the timeline project at the ASOIAF wiki puts the youngest age for a girl to have a child is 13, which is still really young. Also his mother was the ruling Princess of Dorne, she likely married when she wanted. Provided his mother was 17-22 when she had him, she would have been born around 225 -230. Her brother would have likely been born a few years later. Thus we can likely deduce that Olenna and Lewyn were born around the same time.

 

However we know the Tragedy at Summerhall happened in 259.  Most of House Targaryen died on that day and it would reason that a great number of the Kingsguard also died on that day. Barristan joined the KG in 260 at the age of 24, and is certainly younger than Lewyn Martell.  Jaime Lannister is known as the youngest member to ever join the KG at 15.

 

 Ser Gerold Hightower himself heard my vows … to ward the king with all my strength … to give my blood for his … I fought beside the White Bull and Prince Lewyn of Dorne … beside Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

 

This is the first time we hear of Prince Lewyn in the story and Barristan thinks of him collectively with Gerold Hightower.  Perhaps they were both members when he joined the KG.

 

 

They were all in their graves now, the Sword of the Morning and the Smiling Knight, the White Bull and Prince Lewyn, Ser Oswell Whent with his black humor, earnest Jon Darry, Simon Toyne and his Kingswood Brotherhood, bluff old Sumner Crakehall.

 

Another quote from this time from Jaime. He also thinks of Lewyn collectively with Gerold. Aerys becomes King in 262, we know Lewyn served during Aerys kingship but not when he joined. If he joined during Aerys reign he likely would have been in his early to mid-30s.Its rather old to be starting a KG career and it would seem likely that he joined before or just after Summerhall.

 

Jaime thinks of Lewyn seven times in ASOS.  Jaime is a character conflicted over his many oaths and vows.  Yet he clearly respects Lewyn and the rest of Aery’s KG in his POV’s.  There is never a mention of a paramour so I think that is it unlikely that Jaime knew of Lewyn’s paramour.

 

V. Olenna Tyrell nee Redwyne

 

Lady Olenna squirmed forward. "Even when I was a girl younger than you, it was well known that in the Red Keep the very walls have ears. Well, they will be the better for a song, and meanwhile we girls shall speak freely."

 

"A great oaf," said the Queen of Thorns. "His father was an oaf as well. My husband, the late Lord Luthor. Oh, I loved him well enough, don't mistake me. A kind man, and not unskilled in the bedchamber, but an appalling oaf all the same. He managed to ride off a cliff whilst hawking. They say he was looking up at the sky and paying no mind to where his horse was taking him.

 

"Loras?" Lady Olenna sounded annoyed. "Don't be foolish, child. Kingsguard never wed. Didn't they teach you anything in Winterfell? We were speaking of my grandson Willas.”

 

"Your brother was a terrible traitor, I know, but if we start killing men at weddings they'll be even more frightened of marriage than they are presently. There, that's better."

 

It is likely that Olenna would have been sent to King’s Landing when she was betrothed to Daeron Targaryen when she was 9.  Daeron was almost certainly in love with Jeremy Norridge.  Thus it is unlikely that there was any sexual relationship between Olenna and Daeron. Daeron broke the betrothal when Olenna was 18. Yet Olenna’s firstborn Mace was born when Olenna was 28.  Plenty of time for a relationship with Lewyn.

 

The Dornish have maintained a strong connections with the Targaryen’s since they married into the Seven Kingdoms.  Dornish influence is court is one of the reason that several houses joined with the Blackfyre Pretenders. Also it is known that Prince Doran’s mother served as a handmaiden for Princess Rhaelle.

Redwyne’s are known for red hair and it’s likely that she had red hair when she was younger. Almost every red haired woman in this story has been considered beautiful. Perhaps this is where the “great beauty men say” comes from.

 

I find it likely that Lewyn and Olenna met at court during or after her betrothal to Prince Daeron. Olenna’s comment about Luthor not being unskilled in bed is a clear indication that she has had a lover. This lover was likely from before her marriage to him. 

 

VI. Story hints

 

Arianne refers to Lewyn as being as tall as a tower. Olenna has two bodyguards who are both seven feet tall that are constantly with her. Their names are Erryk and Arryk, which happen to be the names of the famous Kingsguard brothers from the Dance of Dragons.

 

Olenna is annoyed when Sansa mentions the notion of marrying Loras. Perhaps it reminded her of Lewyn.

 

Olenna calls Ellaria Sand the “Serpent’s whore.” Jealously at a Prince of Dorne and his lover.

 

VII. Conclusion

 

I believe Olenna is Lewyn’s paramour.  They are both of comparable ages.  Lewyn is older than Barristan and its plausible he joined the Kingsguard before Barristan.  Olenna has had a lover before she married Luthor likely around the time the betrothal to Daeron ended.  So both had good reasons for being in King’s Landing in their youth Jaime doesn’t appear to be aware of Lewyn’s paramour so it’s plausible that the paramour existed before his time in the Kingsguard.

 

 

As a final note Lewyn died at the Trident slain by Lyn Corbray wielding Lady Forlorn.  Forlorn is an excellent word to describe Olenna.

 

This is my first attempt at a theory so please be gentle but feel free to poke holes my theory.

 

Part 2: Now on page 7.

 

Discussions that have come before:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2d52hd/

 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79826-prince-lewyns-paramour/

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Olenna calls Ellaria Sand the “Serpent’s whore.” Jealously at a Prince of Dorne and his lover.


I don't get this part. Why would you be jealous of you're boyfriend's nephew's girlfriend? And why use the term "whore" if it describes her as well as it does Ellaria?

Also, the red hair = great beauty thing is a bit of a stretch. But the fact that one of her daughters is described as a buxom beauty, her granddaughter is one of the most beautiful women in Westeros, and her grandson is considered dazzlingly handsome but a bit feminine... well, they have to have gotten those looks from somewhere, and I don't get the impression that it was from Luthor. (Then again, Horror and Slobber have as much Olenna genetics as Margy and Loras, so...)

Finally, a lot of your quotes don't seem to show anything. For example, what does "they'll be even more frightened of marriage than they are presently" imply? That she expected Lewyn to marry her, and considers him a coward for not doing so? I don't see Olenna getting into a relationship with a man who comes from the land of free love and open paramours and who's legally prevented from marrying, without any clue what she's getting into it.

Anyway, it definitely seems possible, but there's not much compelling evidence for it. At least not in part one; I look forward to part two.
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I don't get this part. Why would you be jealous of you're boyfriend's nephew's girlfriend? And why use the term "whore" if it describes her as well as it does Ellaria?

Also, the red hair = great beauty thing is a bit of a stretch. But the fact that one of her daughters is described as a buxom beauty, her granddaughter is one of the most beautiful women in Westeros, and her grandson is considered dazzlingly handsome but a bit feminine... well, they have to have gotten those looks from somewhere, and I don't get the impression that it was from Luthor. (Then again, Horror and Slobber have as much Olenna genetics as Margy and Loras, so...)

Finally, a lot of your quotes don't seem to show anything. For example, what does "they'll be even more frightened of marriage than they are presently" imply? That she expected Lewyn to marry her, and considers him a coward for not doing so? I don't see Olenna getting into a relationship with a man who comes from the land of free love and open paramours and who's legally prevented from marrying, without any clue what she's getting into it.

Anyway, it definitely seems possible, but there's not much compelling evidence for it. At least not in part one; I look forward to part two.

 

Jealously maybe isn't the right word but a bitterness perhaps.  Its obvious that things didn't work out between her and Lewyn.  Likely due to him being a member of the KG.  The curse at Ellaria I feel could be caused by the bitterness.

 

Yes the whole rare beauty is the hardest part to really work in but its known that most Tyrell's are pretty, I was trying to find some other connection and yes its a stretch but there is so little we know of this period.  I wanted to keep part 1 small so people would read it and give me feedback to refine my ideas.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

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"Hey, I think your greatma banged my uncle or something?

Sorry about the leg btw.

Anyway... Like horses?

 

Sincerely yours,

 

Prince Oberyn Martell."

 

 

(ETA: On a more serious note, I had heard that theory in passing before, pretty sure from it was from you, but in any case very nice OP!)

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Good job and I like it!

But one question here. If his lover is a highborn lady like her, should she be called "mistress" in stead of "Paramour"?

I already feel like Lewyn had some common woman in KL somewhere and had a long-term relationship with her like Elariia sand and Red Viper. 

If it were her, then their meetings must have become quite rare after she left KL and married. 

but anyway, this is just my thoughts. 

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Good job and I like it!

But one question here. If his lover is a highborn lady like her, should she be called "mistress" in stead of "Paramour"?

I already feel like Lewyn had some common woman in KL somewhere and had a long-term relationship with her like Elariia sand and Red Viper. 

If it were her, then their meetings must have become quite rare after she left KL and married. 

but anyway, this is just my thoughts. 

A mistress is a whore on long-term employment. A paramour is an actual lover, not something based on money.

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I still think the theory that the guy in charge of the holy hundred at Harrenhall is a stronger theory for Olennas former lover.
 
Edit: An easter egg about Olenna being in KL would make your case stronger.


Bonifer rode with Stannis. How does that make sense?
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Since the Kingsguard (KG) kept it a secret I think that it must have been a highborn lady.

 

 

 

Good theory- just wanted to point out that this part is not necessarily true.  The KG would have covered it irrespective of the identity of the paramour/lover.  My understanding is that the KG covered it up to preserve Lewyn's (and the KG's) honor not the paramour's.

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