Heresy 176

[Reposado]

 

I'm not sure about that; Bloodraven has certainly outlived his contemporaries and so, presumably might Bran, but it seems odd that on the one hand singers ordinarily live long as in hundreds of years long, but rather less if chosen as greenseers, while humans whose ordinary lives are but short live very much longer if nailed to a tree. Or do they live beyond their time not because they are greenseers but because vampire-like they rely on a diet of human blood to preserve them?

 

they live beyond their time because of the apparatus they are hooked up to. either ice preserves type thing or basically they aren't using up much phsyical energy, essentially hoked up to life support.

 

but definitely the connotation of the singer green seers not being robust is that they want greenseers who are robust, thus blood raven and bran

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

 

I still don't get what your saying and why.Whose dismissing other scenarios? For heavens sake we have some who believe Mance,Robert,Rhaegar,Arthur,Howland and even Jon being the son of an Other If anything this thread has the most diverse opinions when it comes to who Jon's parents are ,so again i'm a bit confused as to what the problem is about Heresy not "living up to the standard of debate" we wouldn't have all these beliefs if debate was being hindering.Everyone should know by now and if they don't its worth repeating again.

 

Heresy is NOT a homogenous group,not in all or most ideas. If one,two or three persons see things a certain way it is not a representation of all participants on the thread hence the reason it is unfair to generalize like this. BC is the founder of the thread yes,but their are many voices and not all of us singing the same note in the chorous.

 

Again how can we AS A WHOLE be dismissive when we have the most diverse belief about who Jon's parents are.The only theory that has that "too obvious statement" attributed to it is Rhaegar as Jon's father and you have to blame GRRM's wife for that.I personally agree with her,it is obvious and i've said that before. Somebody else might not think so but me.

 

So isn't it unfair to lump every and most posters on here because of my belief? I think so.

Yep something i brought up before about BR and how much the Weirwoods would benefit from a mind like BR. But we may have to ask ourselves though,how much of BR is still there? I mean what would a symbiotic organism be if it assimilates Oppenhiemer,David Koresh and lets say Sitting bull. I mean is it something knew or a bit of all? :dunno:

I feel like ur dismissing my thoughts on dismissal  :)

[Black Crow]

but definitely the connotation of the singer green seers not being robust is that they want greenseers who are robust, thus blood raven and bran

 

Yes, but my point is that the singers start off with a different base line. We don't know just how long they do live in normal circumstances, but it wouldn't be too unreasonable to look at say 2-300 years. Even half of that for a greenseer is well beyond a long human lifespan.

[wolfmaid7]

If you don't agree with my assessment, that's fine. It's just my opinion of what I see as a sour undercurrent to an otherwise enjoyable thread, which is the rather frequent reinforcing of this idea of the RLJers as a hivemind of "the faithful," as well as expressing a derision for their ideas--which was the way I perceived that "real problem" comment from BC a couple pages ago.

Indeed, on the Sable Hall forums (populated by many Heresy posers), it wouldn't even be accurate to call it an undercurrent, as the front page of the General section was filled with thread after thread devoted to essentially saying "Hey, look at what this stupid idiot just said on Westeros.org," which was a tone that I found more than a little weird, petulant, and pathetically obsessive.

I acknowledge that I'm possibly being unfair, presumptuous, or painting with a broad brush, but from my perspective, the level of discourse in this thread is really not so different from all of the echo chamber threads that certain posters here deride.  :dunno:

Ok as an example your statement about Bloodraven.You and i have had some good conversations about him and what his role in this is. BC has an idea about Bloodraven i.e Kutz,i recognize it could be that way.I don't believe so because the text tells me something different.Same thing with CHs BC sees him as the Russian i don't and you and i have had some great conversation about him and are in agreement that he isn't just the Russian. 

 

But BC's idea or beliefs doesn't mean a consensus and i certainly don't believe his idea are dogmatic when it comes to Heresy on a whole. As to the whole SH fiasco it was proof that an un moderated site couldn't work people take too much liberties when there are no rules.There was too much water under the bridge with some on the RLJ site and some people on Heresy who may not have been core Heretics people who have been here from the earlies.

 

But LH where the essays are having a first run is very successful and we have people like Kingmonkey who is apart of the parentage debates and aquiting himself well.Its all about respecting other views and when you disagree do it tastefully.Also respecting that people will have different views.

 

I dsagree with you on a whole though i'm sorry i think,you are turning BC's disagreements into being a reflection of everyone and that's not fair an untrue.

 

Just a suggestion,separate BC's yesess and nos from the rest of us.

[wolfmaid7]

I feel like ur dismissing my thoughts on dismissal   :)

Hahaha that's funny.Hey this is how things improve if anyone person feels marginalized and that their thoughts aren't being heard they should talk about it so it can get better.

[Reposado]

 

Yes, but my point is that the singers start off with a different base line. We don't know just how long they do live in normal circumstances, but it wouldn't be too unreasonable to look at say 2-300 years. Even half of that for a greenseer is well beyond a long human lifespan.

 

very possible. we dont know how long a singer greenseer lasts. but the phrasing still suggests that the lack of robustness is a problem for singer greenseers, strongly implying that said problem is the reason that they have human greenseers.

 

we also don't know how long the weirwood network lengthens the life span of human greenseers. bloodraven was 77 when he got there. it turned hie remaining 3-15 into another 60. would bran be able to serve as greenseer for far more than that?

[wolfmaid7]

When it comes to the whole Greenseer thing and to repeat something i've said before.I think like Bran we may have misunderstood what BR is saying.I think we have lumped "those who sing the song of earth" to mean the little tree huggers only and i think we are dead wrong on that. Bran may not have understoond this but based on what BR said "those who sing the song of earth" are not limited to Leaf''s people.Those who sing the song of earth are marked by the gods.

 

Some of the direwolves,humans,the children even Dragons fit this criteria and thus can be "green" seers as long as they can form symbiotic bonds with another( meld their spirits with another) and engage in some form of prophecy.

 

We use the term the Stark kids warging and skinchanging which is indicates a submissive/master relationship and its not a true reflection of what happens with people like the Stark kids,Dany and BR.The language used is different in that passage where Bran and summer have melded we hear terms like " the boy who shares his skin" BR talking to Bran about the Raven its the same thing "those who share their skins"

 

 

I also think Br hits us a 4 for a 6 with that speech.

 

 

The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers. "

[Bran the Bringer]

it says that the singers that are born to be greenseers are not robust. among singers. that does not mean that humans who have the gift are not physically whole. bloodraven is almost 130 but he was a whole and hearty adult.

 

He lost an eye and was and suffered from albinism. He has lingered long in the tree.

BR was a considerable fighter, and despite his albinism, he was perfectly fine until his disappearance. Yet, he is a greenseer.

 

He lost an eye before his disappearance.

While Bloodraven may have been robust, he wasn't whole--he lost an eye. Granted, that loss isn't nearly on the scale of what Bran lost before he started having visions of the 3EC, but it may have still been enough of a loss to be a catalyst for BR's own awakening to his powers.

Edit: And, in the context of "emotional detachment," it may be the case that BR's albinism and status as a bastard lead to some degree of isolation from - and mistreatment by - his peers, which seems like fertile ground for such a world view.

 

 

Yes he was a long-view sort of person.

 

I'm not sure about that; Bloodraven has certainly outlived his contemporaries and so, presumably might Bran, but it seems odd that on the one hand singers ordinarily live long as in hundreds of years long, but rather less if chosen as greenseers, while humans whose ordinary lives are but short live very much longer if nailed to a tree. Or do they live beyond their time not because they are greenseers but because vampire-like they rely on a diet of human blood to preserve them?

 

It is a good question.

 

 

If I'm not mistaken, when they're talking about the (comparatively) less robust greenseers, the phrasing is something along the lines of "their time on the earth is short, but once they're in the wood, they linger long indeed."

I'm wondering how exactly that ought to be interpreted--is that a straightforward statement implying that greenseers die young, or do we already see this in effect with Bloodraven? I'm given the distinct impression that Bloodraven's "time on the earth" is long past him, and that he spends most of his time dreaming inside of weirnet.

I'm also giving some thought to Bran's exploration of the caves in Hodor's body, and the room full of corpse-like greenseers that he comes across; at they time, they seem dead, but when Bran passes with his torch, this is enough to cause them to partially stir. I'm wondering whether it's the case that, so long as the weirwood they're attached to is thriving, a greenseer does not permanently die, they just increasingly lose touch with their bodies as they sink into weirnet.

 

That does seem to be the evidence.

 

 

 

they live beyond their time because of the apparatus they are hooked up to. either ice preserves type thing or basically they aren't using up much phsyical energy, essentially hoked up to life support.

 

but definitely the connotation of the singer green seers not being robust is that they want greenseers who are robust, thus blood raven and bran

 

 I dunno neither was whole when they "married the trees".

[Bran the Bringer]

When it comes to the whole Greenseer thing and to repeat something i've said before.I think like Bran we may have misunderstood what BR is saying.I think we have lumped "those who sing the song of earth" to mean the little tree huggers only and i think we are dead wrong on that. Bran may not have understoond this but based on what BR said "those who sing the song of earth" are not limited to Leaf''s people.Those who sing the song of earth are marked by the gods.

 

Some of the direwolves,humans,the children even Dragons fit this criteria and thus can be "green" seers as long as they can form symbiotic bonds with another( meld their spirits with another) and engage in some form of prophecy.

 

We use the term the Stark kids warging and skinchanging which is indicates a submissive/master relationship and its not a true reflection of what happens with people like the Stark kids,Dany and BR.The language used is different in that passage where Bran and summer have melded we hear terms like " the boy who shares his skin" BR talking to Bran about the Raven its the same thing "those who share their skins"

 

 

I also think Br hits us a 4 for a 6 with that speech.

 

 

The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers. "

 

There is a distinct difference betwen Skinchangers and Greenseers. Only one in one thousand Skinchangers may become Greenseers. So not every Skinchanger has this ability/power. Very few do. While you might be correct as to the range of creatures who might be able to it requires more than just a mind/soul meld and some form of prophecy. It may require that but that is not all it requires. What that something else is seems open to debate.

 

You are right in saying they must meet at least those requirements but there is another requirement as well.

[Bran the Bringer]

 

very possible. we dont know how long a singer greenseer lasts. but the phrasing still suggests that the lack of robustness is a problem for singer greenseers, strongly implying that said problem is the reason that they have human greenseers.

 

we also don't know how long the weirwood network lengthens the life span of human greenseers. bloodraven was 77 when he got there. it turned hie remaining 3-15 into another 60. would bran be able to serve as greenseer for far more than that?

 

It does mention "men" in the 1 in 1000 becoming Wargs in the same bit where it mentions they arent robust. Now it is a little interperative and you may be right.

Theoretically yes. He probably has not reached the end of his allotted time yet and should be able to linger as long as BR if not longer.

 

ETA clarification.

[Bran the Bringer]

The quote you mentioned before indicates that there have been human greenseers before:

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," said Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, "and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer."

 

Other pieces of evidence:

-The human size weirwood throne in the Hollow Hill. It was big enough for Beric Dondarrion.

-The Weirwood throne in the Eyre and the Oakenseat of House Gardener seems to be a "cargo cult" way of reclaiming powers long lost.

-The Starks tombs in the shapes of thrones buried in a big cave strongly remind me of the way a greenseer looks, gaunt face included.

-The Pact of Isle of Faces points towards the peace being achieved between CoTF greenseers and human greenseers.

 

Regarding the composition of the weirwood hivemind. We know the CoTF, human wargs and human greenseers can join the hivemind. We don't know if normal humans that die near weirwoods join it too. Leaf tells Bran to avoid trying to reach the dead; the dead humans might be stored too, but Bran is not ready to contact them yet.

The CoTF are long lived and their population was always low. They have been living in Westeros for hundredth of thousands of years.

Men are short lived but they multiply fast. They have lived in Westeros for 12000 years.

So my question is: have men overrun the CoTF inside the hivemind too?

 

I even bothered typing out that particular bit of evidence and still didn't see it. Thanks. I'm dumb.

 

- I am not sure it was really a throne or if if just appeared that way. Although good possible hint because of size.

- I can't be sure about this because Oakenseat goes back to Garth Greenhand and the throne in the Eyrie doe not seem to be connected to any theWeirwood 'net. It may still have residual powers but it does not appear to "touch roots" with other Weirwoods.

- That may well be a hint to an entirely different point.

- Yes good catch I dunno how I missed it. Thanks again.

 

It is a good question and certainly possible and may effect the way Bran "sees" things.

 

So we have good evidence of  a history of First Men being Greenseers. Do we have any evidence of any other "Targ-blooded" folks who have "married the trees"?

 

eta answered question

[Tucu]

 

I even bothered typing out that particular bit of evidence and still didn't see it. Thanks. I'm dumb.

 

- I am not sure it was really a throne or if if just appeared that way. Although good possible hint because of size.

- I can't be sure about this because Oakenseat goes back to Garth Greenhand and the throne in the Eyrie doe not seem to be connected to any theWeirwood 'net. It may still have residual powers but it does not appear to "touch roots" with other Weirwoods.

- That may well be a hint to an entirely different point.

- Yes good catch I dunno how I missed it. Thanks again.

 

It is a good question and certainly possible and may effect the way Bran "sees" things.

 

So we have good evidence of  a history of First Men being Greenseers. Do we have any evidence of any other "Targ-blooded" folks who have "married the trees"?

 

eta answered question

I think he is the first half-Targ to become a greenseer. Although I imagine he is not the first half-Blackwood to become one.

[TheMiddleHero]

edit: Deleted because of stupidity and missing a line in the book which I just read in Wolfmaid's post.

 

 

Rereading the chapter quoted and rather than leaving a dead post. What does everyone think of this line?

 

 

Lord Brynden drew his life from the tree, Leaf told them. He did not
eat, he did not drink. He slept, he dreamed, he watched. I was going to be a knight, Bran remembered. I
used to run and climb and fight. It seemed a thousand years ago.

[Bran the Bringer]

I think he is the first half-Targ to become a greenseer. Although I imagine he is not the first half-Blackwood to become one.

 

Let me start by apologizing for the short length of my earlier multi quote and the few posts around that time. I did not wish to appear rude or dismissive of anyone's ideas. I had a small window of time to post and would have taken more time to post if I would have had it. I got back on and read it and it came off a little rude to me but that was not my intention so I apologize.

 

It is true that the Blackwoods have old First Men Blood. The Blackwoods originally lived in the Wolfswood early in the Age of Heroes, as the AWoIaF book indicates, and for some reason were driven from the North. I don't recall it mentioning the Starks doing it but they seem an obvious choice given the proximity of the Wolfswood to Winterfell and the generally "bad neighbors" that the Starks are.

 

But the Starks don't usually exile they usually take brides and hostages. They aren't afraid to breed with them later. They didn't then later destroy them root and branch either after securing the North.

 

That has always stuck out as an anomaly for me. They didn't bend the knee/submit to the Starks like everyone else north of the Neck eventually did.

 

Is their something "wrong" with the Blackwoods? Doesnt seem likely if the Starks intermarried with them later at least 2 times.

 

So it must have been something from that earlier period.

 

Were they unwilling to go along with the Starks plan, or is it simply a matter of poor statescraft in an emerging culture? Neither?

The text doesn't say that I have been able to find but I'll just bet Brynden Rivers knows.

 

Back to the previous thought;

If BR was capable of working magic from different "schools" or sources of magical power depending on your viewpoint, is that something the Weirnet possesses now?

He has merged with the trees although we may have to wait for death for the true merging of memories/souls.

If not now, but only after death, what does that mean then?

 

We haven't seen yet what the Weirwoods are capable of but they certainly seem to need to stick to the lower in general magic fantasy setting that GRRM has provided us.

Will it serve to confuse the situation, or will it provide new knowledges or abilities than were previously exposed to the Greenseers?

Does mean anything to the story at all, or just to the voices in my head? :lmao:

[Bran the Bringer]

edit: Deleted because of stupidity and missing a line in the book which I just read in Wolfmaid's post.

 

 

Rereading the chapter quoted and rather than leaving a dead post. What does everyone think of this line?

 

Bran the Belated shows up too late to the party? That could be bad.

 

The whole passage of time and the way it's being noticed is a little screwy in Bran's chapter in the Cave.

 

Probably a euphemism for how long ago and far away his old life seems to him now but we can never be too sure.

[Bran the Bringer]

On the question of the use and abuse of greenseeing powers, I think that its worth looking at Bloodraven as Kurtz.

 

Back in the day, as I acknowledged, although the old Blackwood/Bracken feud provided addition edge, he was indeed a prominent figure in the old Targaryen regime. Then came a fall from grace, a period on the Wall and finally his own journey into the heart of darkness. The timeline on the latter part of this is tolerably vague, but Maester Aemon holds up a mirror to it in in telling how he watched the downfall of his house but could not intervene. Bloodraven must have seen it too, yet as Kurtz he too could only watch.

 

Was this because he completely repudiated his Targaryen heritage - after all given his record he can hardly be accused of being meek and mild - or was it the nature of greenseeing.

 

The point I'm making is that if we step back and look at what greenseers, even as powerful as Kurtz actually do, its not a lot. They can see, obviously. They can [or did] skinchange*, and they can come to people in dreams, but that appears to be all we've seen thus far. Its important to remember that the big stuff, like the Hammer of the Waters required multiple and probably many greenseers all working together rather than a single operator.

 

I therefore wouldn't see Bran, far less Rickon, having the power to destroy. If powers are involved though I might be tempted to see Rickon as another Varamyr.

 

 

*this is something I'm not sure about, they certainly start off as wargs/skinchangers, but I think a degree of personal contact may be necessary to maintain it in the long term. We don't know why the crows are in the cave but I think the likeliest explanation is that the singers are still riding them as and when required, but Kurtz and any other greenseers immobilised in their trees may not be actively skinchanging anybody, but rather operate in the dreamworld.

 

I do agree with your Kurtz/BR analog in many respects. The only real debate I see that can be made is how 1:1 it is.

 

I do not think there will be over the top use of magic either as it seems wrong for the low magic fantasy we have. Magic is on the rise but even from the Age of Heroes text related stuff we don't have any over the top magic in the text.

 

My only reason for speculation beyond what we have seen in the text related to Greenseer magic is that it seems like Bran is already capable of doing more than he should be able to. Possibly, seems likely to me but I'll stick with possibly, making a tree touch Theon and whispering his name while he is awake in the godswood of Winterfell doesn't sound like what he's supposed to be able to do either. Not just "winds in trees" but speaking his name.

 

I do theorize that Bran will be capable of more than any other Greenseer in a long time, possibly ever. I have been working on a more essay style post on this topic for submission here this but I do not spend enough time on it nor am I certain I am barking up trees, right or wrong, or just barking mad.

[Black Crow]

The point I'm making here is not to deny that Bloodraven has powers or that Bran may in time have greater powers but that dramatic though it is there is a whole world of difference between messing with peoples dreams and exercising the apocalyptic dark magics required to call down the Hammer of the Waters or the Long Night or even to raise the Wall. Whilst only the first of these is explicitly credited to the greenseers its significant that it required a lot of them, not just one.

[Black Crow]

 

Let me start by apologizing for the short length of my earlier multi quote and the few posts around that time. I did not wish to appear rude or dismissive of anyone's ideas. I had a small window of time to post and would have taken more time to post if I would have had it. I got back on and read it and it came off a little rude to me but that was not my intention so I apologize.

 

It is true that the Blackwoods have old First Men Blood. The Blackwoods originally lived in the Wolfswood early in the Age of Heroes, as the AWoIaF book indicates, and for some reason were driven from the North. I don't recall it mentioning the Starks doing it but they seem an obvious choice given the proximity of the Wolfswood to Winterfell and the generally "bad neighbors" that the Starks are.

 

But the Starks don't usually exile they usually take brides and hostages. They aren't afraid to breed with them later. They didn't then later destroy them root and branch either after securing the North.

 

That has always stuck out as an anomaly for me. They didn't bend the knee/submit to the Starks like everyone else north of the Neck eventually did.

 

Is their something "wrong" with the Blackwoods? Doesnt seem likely if the Starks intermarried with them later at least 2 times.

 

So it must have been something from that earlier period.

 

Were they unwilling to go along with the Starks plan, or is it simply a matter of poor statescraft in an emerging culture? Neither?

The text doesn't say that I have been able to find but I'll just bet Brynden Rivers knows.

 

Back to the previous thought;

If BR was capable of working magic from different "schools" or sources of magical power depending on your viewpoint, is that something the Weirnet possesses now?

He has merged with the trees although we may have to wait for death for the true merging of memories/souls.

If not now, but only after death, what does that mean then?

 

We haven't seen yet what the Weirwoods are capable of but they certainly seem to need to stick to the lower in general magic fantasy setting that GRRM has provided us.

Will it serve to confuse the situation, or will it provide new knowledges or abilities than were previously exposed to the Greenseers?

Does mean anything to the story at all, or just to the voices in my head? :lmao:

 

A possible solution might be presented by the Crows/Ravens.associated with Raventree Hall. While we're confident in these here parts of a Stark connection to the Old Gods, the Blackwoods might have a stronger one - sufficient to protect them from the Starks.

[Black Crow]

edit: Deleted because of stupidity and missing a line in the book which I just read in Wolfmaid's post.

 

 

Rereading the chapter quoted and rather than leaving a dead post. What does everyone think of this line?

 

Quote

 

Lord Brynden drew his life from the tree, Leaf told them. He did not
eat, he did not drink. He slept, he dreamed, he watched. I was going to be a knight, Bran remembered. I
used to run and climb and fight. It seemed a thousand years ago.

 

On one, immediate, level I don't think its significant. The thousand years ago is just a literary expression denoting how things have changed so much since those early days,

 

However there is also another deeper level to it. Weourselves measure our days by the rising and the setting of the sun, by clocks and to a rather lesser extent by a regular cycle of events such as meals. In that cave are none of those markers and one of the things we've discussed in the past is how time at least appears to move differently with the narrative seemingly not corresponding to the phases of the moon outside.

[addicted to snow]

 

 

Whoa dude....

 

I have seen you throw out some wild stuff, so not quite sure how to take this bastion of truth angle.

 

Well, Stick around, it is a repetitive cycle... in fact, you have been here long enough that if you have not noticed it5 yourself, then you were not paying attention...