Heresy 176

[Black Crow]

 

Because Lyanna was a Wight when he found her...

 

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I totally get that, in real life, rose petals darken & turn black with time as they dry out... But in this story, they were still blue... as blue as the eyes of death...

 

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GRRM wrote Eddard's Dream Sequence so that one day we will be able to look back & say OMG, she was a Wight... 

 

Dying but not yet dead. Yes there are blue rose petals, blue as the eyes of death but those in her hands haven't turned black as they withered and dried out over a period, but turned black as she bruised and crushed them in her pain-tightened fists.

[Black Crow]

 

I think we can add Maggy to the list. At least partially thus far (the friend's death, and Cersei's marriage, children, husband's bastards, shrouds...).

 

 

Ah well that one at least I think we can place in the self-fulfilling category. Young Cersei threatened the witch and so got the scary prophecy she deserved. Arguably everything that has happened thus far has been the direct result of her knowledge of it and latterly of course she has been driven by her paranoia about the younger queen and the "valonquar" OK a lot of it is due to her sweet and tender nature and would have come about anyway, but because she is linking it to the prophecy rather than recognising her own responsibility she is doing more and worse stuff, encompassing her own doom. In that sense its not a prediction but a curse.

[Regular John Umber]

The point about the prophecies as GRRM has constantly been at some pains to emphasise both in text and SSM [with examples] is that they do come to pass but never as advertised - hence the argument that if he or she ever does tool up, Azor Ahai aint going to be the saviour advertised.
 
As to prophecies or visions I'd say that they are one and the same, or more accurately perhaps that all prophecies start off with the prophet having a vision and proclaiming it as a prophecy. Jojen's green dreams are a good example.

Good point, my thoughts exactly.

[addicted to snow]

 

Dying but not yet dead. Yes there are blue rose petals, blue as the eyes of death but those in her hands haven't turned black as they withered and dried out over a period, but turned black as she bruised and crushed them in her pain-tightened fists.

 

Do you really think that dead rose petals that have been thoroughly dried in the arid climate of Dorne for months have retained enough moisture to be able to bruise & blacken? or would they just crumble in her clinched fist???

 

[TheSmallOther]

The more I think about it, the more I like the Idea that Lyanna was wight at the time that she have birth... 

 

'A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death'

 

[paraphrase]: 'rose petals spilled from her hands, dead & black' (but the previous quote just established that rose petals were still blue, so it must have been her hands that were dead & black)...

 

Other subtle hints early in the AGOTs about being born with the dead...

 

This is definitely where GRRM is going... Definitely...

 

Hehe... I've posted it few times in few threads already, but if this topic comes back... :) Since I'm not native English speaker, I have non-English version of first three books of ASOIAF. I was looking for these blue/black roses in the text and when I opened that particular part which describes Lyanna's death, I found that it's not roses, but hands which are black. The reason is, in my language one cannot have any ambiguity in that particular sentence. Either hand must be black, or roses and it is very clear for reader which one of them is black. I'm not sure if that was translator's wild guess when he had to choose between palm and roses and how it matches GRRM's thoughts, but anyway it was an interesting thing to note for myself.

[Regular John Umber]

[paraphrase]: 'rose petals spilled from her hands, dead & black' (but the previous quote just established that rose petals were still blue, so it must have been her hands that were dead & black)...

your paraphrase is problematic, because it's "spilled from her palm, dead and black."

I don't think it works as well. In context, this argument falls apart:

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

She was clearly dying in his arms, not undead.

[Tucu]

 

Hehe... I've posted it few times in few threads already, but if this topic comes back... :) Since I'm not native English speaker, I have non-English version of first three books of ASOIAF. I was looking for these blue/black roses in the text and when I opened that particular part which describes Lyanna's death, I found that it's not roses, but hands which are black. The reason is, in my language one cannot have any ambiguity in that particular sentence. Either hand must be black, or roses and it is very clear for reader which one of them is black. I'm not sure if that was translator's wild guess when he had to choose between palm and roses and how it matches GRRM's thoughts, but anyway it was an interesting thing to note for myself.

I have checked the spanish translation of that chapter and there is no ambiguity in this version. The petals are black and dead ("withered" would be a better reverse translation)

[Reposado]

google 'black ice'... it sounds an awful lot like the Other Armor to me...

 

i don't think such a modern term would be in the story at all. unless jon is made of asphalt

 

 

Ah well that one at least I think we can place in the self-fulfilling category. Young Cersei threatened the witch and so got the scary prophecy she deserved. Arguably everything that has happened thus far has been the direct result of her knowledge of it and latterly of course she has been driven by her paranoia about the younger queen and the "valonquar" OK a lot of it is due to her sweet and tender nature and would have come about anyway, but because she is linking it to the prophecy rather than recognising her own responsibility she is doing more and worse stuff, encompassing her own doom. In that sense its not a prediction but a curse.

 

some of the stuff she has certainly urged along, but her marriage to robert? how did she arrange that?

[addicted to snow]

 

i don't think such a modern term would be in the story at all. unless jon is made of asphalt

 

The Night sky would serve the same function as asphalt in this case, would it not?

 

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What's Your explanation for Black Ice?

[addicted to snow]

your paraphrase is problematic, because it's "spilled from her palm, dead and black."

I don't think it works as well. In context, this argument falls apart:


She was clearly dying in his arms, not undead.

 

As I have said before, Proper English is very clear that it is the rose petals that are dead & black... Still, I sense the intention of ambiguity...

 

 

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I think everyone here would agree that GRRM has left BIG, Important parts of this story out so far... The reveals that he has in store for us will be shocking... I think this might be one of them...

 

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TONS of foreshadowing early in AGOTs... When they found the wolf pups, I think Jorey said "Born with the dead! You've heard the tales!"

 

No, Jorey, we have not heard the tales... Do they involve the Night's King? Jon?

 

& then soon afterward we get my favorite quote in the books:

 

"The ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is." That was when Jon reappeared on the crest of the hill before them...

 

 

 

Jon = Death... 

 

I think that the 'Born with the Dead' line was also meant for Jon... Perhaps this is why Ghost was pushed away from the other wolves...

[Reposado]

 

The Night sky would serve the same function as asphalt in this case, would it not?

 

--

What's Your explanation for Black Ice?

 

well it wouldnt be the way that ice appears on an asphalt surface from a motor vehicle.   probably ice that is black

[Matthew.]

 

Ah well that one at least I think we can place in the self-fulfilling category. Young Cersei threatened the witch and so got the scary prophecy she deserved. Arguably everything that has happened thus far has been the direct result of her knowledge of it and latterly of course she has been driven by her paranoia about the younger queen and the "valonquar" OK a lot of it is due to her sweet and tender nature and would have come about anyway, but because she is linking it to the prophecy rather than recognising her own responsibility she is doing more and worse stuff, encompassing her own doom. In that sense its not a prediction but a curse.

There's certainly an element of that, yet it doesn't explain why (as someone mentioned) she could also accurately predict that Cersei would end up married to Robert, nor the exact number of children each of them would have; for that matter, the golden crowns/golden shrouds cannot be exclusively attributed to the self-fulfilling actions either.

In addition to Maggy the Frog and the GoHH, there's also been accurate visions of the future from Melisandre, Benerro (whose vision ensured that Moqorro would be aboard the correct boat), as well as several Targs having accurate dragon dreams.

Prophecy and visions may often end up useless to the characters in the world, but they're rarely (if ever?) outright false. 

Edit: To clarify, I know you specifically are not arguing that visions and prophecies are false, only that they're greatly misunderstood by the characters pursuing them; eg, Mel, because of her R'hllorist biases perceives Azor Ahai Reborn as a hero/messiah prophecy, when the reality is probably a lot more dire.

[addicted to snow]

 

well it wouldnt be the way that ice appears on an asphalt surface from a motor vehicle.   probably ice that is black

 

Clear ice in front of something that is black is black ice... regardless if the ice is in front of asphalt, black paint, or the Night sky...

 

But, that is just my opinion...

[Black Crow]

An opinion, yes,  but one that I actually agree with insofar that Jon is accustomed to being dressed in black. He is a member of the Nights Watch so he must be dressed in black because it is his destiny to defend the Wall but just as those attacking him include, friends, kinsfolk and comrades so too his black clothing and armour are overlaid with ice.

[Black Crow]

There's certainly an element of that, yet it doesn't explain why (as someone mentioned) she could also accurately predict that Cersei would end up married to Robert, nor the exact number of children each of them would have; for that matter, the golden crowns/golden shrouds cannot be exclusively attributed to the self-fulfilling actions either.

In addition to Maggy the Frog and the GoHH, there's also been accurate visions of the future from Melisandre, Benerro (whose vision ensured that Moqorro would be aboard the correct boat), as well as several Targs having accurate dragon dreams.

Prophecy and visions may often end up useless to the characters in the world, but they're rarely (if ever?) outright false. 

Edit: To clarify, I know you specifically are not arguing that visions and prophecies are false, only that they're greatly misunderstood by the characters pursuing them; eg, Mel, because of her R'hllorist biases perceives Azor Ahai Reborn as a hero/messiah prophecy, when the reality is probably a lot more dire.

 

I'm prepared to be corrected but I don't recall that Robert was predicted, just that she would be a queen and that's something that could be divined from a working knowledge of Tywin and his ambitions. As for the shrouded children again I'm wary. I'm not suggesting that these things cannot be seen. Plainly they are, as demonstrated by Bran, Rather its a question of how they are interpreted by those who see them and those who are told of them.

 

Its pretty well encapsulated in the story of the appointment in Samarra, here as re-told by Somerset Maughan:

 

A merchant in Baghdad sends his servant to the marketplace for provisions. Shortly, the servant comes home white and trembling and tells him that in the marketplace he was jostled by a woman, whom he recognized as Death, and she made a threatening gesture. Borrowing the merchant's horse, he flees at top speed to Samarra, a distance of about 75 miles, where he believes Death will not find him. The merchant then goes to the marketplace and finds Death, and asks why she made the threatening gesture. She replies, "That was not a threatening gesture, it was only a start of surprise. I was astonished to see him in Baghdad, for I had an appointment with him tonight in Samarra."

[WhitewolfStark]

 

Do you really think that dead rose petals that have been thoroughly dried in the arid climate of Dorne for months have retained enough moisture to be able to bruise & blacken? or would they just crumble in her clinched fist???

 

 

Honestly, I think the rose petals are part of the "fever" part of the dream. They didn't exist literally, but are there artistically. Winter Roses don't last long south of the Neck, especially in Dorne.

[Voice]

Ah well that one at least I think we can place in the self-fulfilling category. Young Cersei threatened the witch and so got the scary prophecy she deserved. Arguably everything that has happened thus far has been the direct result of her knowledge of it and latterly of course she has been driven by her paranoia about the younger queen and the "valonquar" OK a lot of it is due to her sweet and tender nature and would have come about anyway, but because she is linking it to the prophecy rather than recognising her own responsibility she is doing more and worse stuff, encompassing her own doom. In that sense its not a prediction but a curse.

 

Parts may be seen as self-fulfilling, but I don't think the prophecy itself can be. I mean, she's like really, really specific. And there's Melara's death. Cercei VII, Feast:

 

The girl with the golden curls put her hands upon her hips. "Give us our foretelling, or I'll go to my lord father and have you whipped for insolence."

"Please," begged Melara. "Just tell us our futures, then we'll go."

"Some are here who have no futures," Maggy muttered in her terrible deep voice. She pulled her robe about her shoulders and beckoned the girls closer. "Come, if you will not go. Fools. Come, yes. I must taste your blood."

Melara paled, but not Cersei. A lioness does not fear a frog, no matter how old and ugly she might be. She should have gone, she should have listened, she should have run away. Instead she took the dagger Maggy offered her, and ran the twisted iron blade across the ball of her thumb. Then she did Melara too.

In the dim green tent, the blood seemed more black than red. Maggy's toothless mouth trembled at the sight of it. "Here," she whispered, "give it here." When Cersei offered her hand, she sucked away the blood with gums as soft as a newborn babe's. The queen could still remember how queer and cold her mouth had been.

"Three questions may you ask," the crone said, once she'd had her drink. "You will not like my answers. Ask, or begone with you."

Go, the dreaming queen thought, hold your tongue, and flee. But the girl did not have sense enough to be afraid.

"When will I wed the prince?" she asked.

"Never. You will wed the king."

Beneath her golden curls, the girl's face wrinkled up in puzzlement. For years after, she took those words to mean that she would not marry Rhaegar until after his father Aerys had died. "I will be queen, though?" asked the younger her.

"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggy's yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

Anger flashed across the child's face. "If she tries I will have my brother kill her." Even then she would not stop, willful child as she was. She still had one more question due her, one more glimpse into her life to come. "Will the king and I have children?" she asked.

"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you."

That made no sense to Cersei. Her thumb was throbbing where she'd cut it, and her blood was dripping on the carpet. How could that be? she wanted to ask, but she was done with her questions.

The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

"What is a valonqar? Some monster?" The golden girl did not like that foretelling. "You're a liar and a warty frog and a smelly old savage, and I don't believe a word of what you say. Come away, Melara. She is not worth hearing."

"I get three questions too," her friend insisted. And when Cersei tugged upon her arm, she wriggled free and turned back to the crone. "Will I marry Jaime?" she blurted out.

You stupid girl, the queen thought, angry even now. Jaime does not even know you are alive. Back then her brother lived only for swords and dogs and horses . . . and for her, his twin.

"Not Jaime, nor any other man," said Maggy. "Worms will have your maidenhead. Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close."

"The only breath we smell is yours," said Cersei. There was a jar of some thick potion by her elbow, sitting on a table. She snatched it up and threw it into the old woman's eyes. In life the crone had screamed at them in some queer foreign tongue, and cursed them as they fled her tent. But in the dream her face dissolved, melting away into ribbons of grey mist until all that remained were two squinting yellow eyes, the eyes of death.

[Black Crow]

 

Honestly, I think the rose petals are part of the "fever" part of the dream. They didn't exist literally, but are there artistically. Winter Roses don't last long south of the Neck, especially in Dorne.

 

Its worth remembering the context:

 

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow... A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

 

Although the redacted part has the first shout of "Eddard!" intruding in the dream, this passage actually has nothing to do with the deathbed scene but is directly referring to the fight outside and, as you say are symbolic of the death about to be visited on nearly all concerned rather than a literal memory of the fight.

[Black Crow]

 

Parts may be seen as self-fulfilling, but I don't think the prophecy itself can be. I mean, she's like really, really specific. And there's Melara's death. Cercei VII, Feast:

 

 

True but there's also a perfectly respectable school of thought that it was Cersei who offed her in order to keep her mouth shut.

[Black Crow]

 But in the dream her face dissolved, melting away into ribbons of grey mist until all that remained were two squinting yellow eyes, the eyes of death.

 

Just in the context of the other current discussion its interesting that Cersei sees two squinting yellow eyes, the eyes of death - as Cersei has no interest far less any connection with Up North, her yellow eyes of death are perhaps more "natural" and reflecting a snake-like malevolence, but yet Lord Eddard sees death in blue eyes - as blue as stars. Why?