Heresy 176

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 176, this week’s edition of the original and best Heresy thread where we take an in-depth, and often a sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire and more particularly what GRRM has referred to as the real conflict, not the Game of Thrones but the threat in the North, in the magical Otherlands above the Wall.

 

Heresy is not of itself a theory and heretics do not as a group take and hold a particular stance on issues, or even agree much with each other very often. There is no “Heretic view”. Instead Heresy is a free-flowing and above all a very friendly series of open discussions and arguments, usually concerned with the Wall itself, with those mysterious Otherlands which lie beyond; with warging, skinchanging, greenseeing, with the old gods, the children and the white walkers - and the possible Stark connection to them all.

 

If new to the thread, don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed here over the years. This is very much a come as you are thread with no previous experience required. We’re very welcoming and very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask. You will neither be patronized nor directed to follow links, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour

 

The strength and the beauty and ultimately the value of Heresy as a critical discussion group is that it reflects diversity and open-ness. This is a thread where ideas can be discussed – and argued – freely, because above all it is about an exchange of ideas and sometimes too a remarkably well informed exchange drawing upon an astonishing broad base of literature ranging through Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness and so many others all to the way to the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Mabinogion; it’s about history [and especially that vastly under-rated date of1189] It’s about mythology, archaeology, ringworks and chambered tombs and sometimes even heroic geology, but above all it’s about the Song of Ice and Fire.

 

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic. Be warned though that Heresy is constantly moving and evolving and that what was once regarded as important may now be exploded. Live in the moment and the current thread.

 

Beyond that, read on…

 

[Black Crow]

And now the slightly spoilerish full text of GRRM's1993  letter to his agent, Ralph Vicinanza. Things have obviously changed a bit since then but If you don’t want to know, don’t read on:

 

October 1993

 

Dear Ralph,

 

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

 

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

 

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

 

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

 

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

 

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

 

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

 

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

 

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

 

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

 

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

 

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

 

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

 

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

 

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

 

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

 

[7 Lines Redacted]

 

But that's the second book...

 

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

 

All best,

George R.R. Martin

 

 

 

What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis/publisher’s blurb for Winds of Winter; not the forthcoming one, alas, but one apparently dating back to when it was still to be the third volume of the trilogy and following directly on in content and style from the first synopsis set out above:

 

 

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

[Black Crow]

And just to repeat my question from the last thread.

 

If all of this silly game of thrones thing is down to Lyanna willfully running off with the raggle-taggle-gypsy-o, why in the feast of the dead is she sitting down with the other victims rather than presiding over it?

[The 4th head of dragon]

Lyanna is just another footnote in the never-ending game of thrones. She wasn't even the direct cause of the Robert's Rebellion, that honor went to Aerys, being the lunatic/moron that he was.

[Tucu]

Are Lyanna, Brandon and Rickard part of the feast or just observers? Unlike the more recently deceased they are standing up.

[Bran the Bringer]

Even if you could put the singular cause down to her running away with the Highness of the Harp she could still be considered a victim for many reasons especially from the viewpoint of the "dreamer", the only point of view he (or we at this point) can really have is what he knows or has been told, unless you believe there was someone else "forcing" that dream on him.

 

Whether she loved him or not I think we can be certain he manipulated her for his own ends. He did feel he needed that one more head.

 

Even if he really loved her (I'm not sold just using an example) love in no way keeps people from manipulating one another. Whether thats bad is probably dependant on the outcome. My wife getting me to do the dishes, even when my usual chore is the bathroom, is not in the same category as starting a war.

 

If he was such a clever lad he should certainly have seen all that coming. I think he did and went ahead anyways placing the lion's share of the guilt in his harp plucking hands.

 

Now that is just one perspective. I am certain many reasons can be found for her "innocence". All that being said there really are few true innocents in this world we love so much so deciding the matter merely on guilt or innocence may be barking up the wrong tree.

 

Being at Winterfell might certainly be influencing his viewpoint both psychologically and in perhaps "other" ways. Having recently betrayed the family that influenced him so much could also well be influencing his viewpoint, even down to the fact that while he didn't betray Lyana, the actions surrounding her life led to his father's betrayal as well.

 

It might just come down to those who are in the "dream" were those who were betrayed by others they believed in.

 

I probably am no where near what you are getting at ( do we call that BC adjacent? :cool4: ) just throwing a few ideas in there based on my perception of the question.

[Black Crow]

It might just come down to those who are in the "dream" were those who were betrayed by others they believed in.

 

I like the idea of betrayal, even indirectly, as being the common thread that binds them together, but again it reinforces the idea that it wasn't Lyanna's fault and that ultimately the feast of the dead is about the fall of the house of Stark.

[TheMiddleHero]

Really need to learn to quote other threads

 

SmallOther:

 

 

I hope GRRM gave name of Norse god to him for a reason :devil:

 

 

Damn, I am better at Celtic gods, but that going right over my head is embarrassing.

 

Also could make things very interesting.

[Black Crow]

Really need to learn to quote other threads

 

SmallOther:

 

 

 

Damn, I am better at Celtic gods, but that going right over my head is embarrassing.

 

Also could make things very interesting.

 All depends of course whether there's a reason for naming him after Hodr beyond a mischievous twinkle in GRRM's eye.

[TheMiddleHero]

 All depends of course whether there's a reason for naming him after Hodr beyond a mischievous twinkle in GRRM's eye.

 

 

May even be vague when it happens, as they tend to be in these books.

[Bran the Bringer]

 

I like the idea of betrayal, even indirectly, as being the common thread that binds them together, but again it reinforces the idea that it wasn't Lyanna's fault and that ultimately the feast of the dead is about the fall of the house of Stark.

 

If we are looking to assign blame here I am certain we can find some blame to go around.

 

The headstrong and passionate young wolf girl certainly has made her fair share of mistakes.

Tilting in men's armor to settle a dispute that culturally men should handle could certainly be seen as one, if she is indeed tKotLT.

Not allowing her family to arrange a marriage for her as would be expected culturally and in many respects in the "reality" of the books is certainly another.

What she may or even may not have done during her "disappearance" could come to represent poor choices on her part. That we can not be certain on just kicking the can.

 

However it would difficult for me to assign her any sort of leading role in the situation. He Who Should've Stayed a Harper certainly bears more responsibilty. Brandon the Brother and Neddard should certainly have been keeping a better eye on her or perhaps trusting her enough to ask for help (or not trusting what others were saying) before plunging headlong into a series of bad decisions that led to the war.

 

I'm sure there are more incidences we can all bring to assign blame, but that is the problem with assigning blame.

Is it Ol' Fire Mad Aerys' fault? He was mad because his family had inbred for generations, The Gods flipped that coin when he was born so is it his fault? His parents fault? The Gods' fault? The coin's fault?

Fault is easy to assign but difficult to determine.

 

As far as ultimately just being the Fall of the House of Stark, I don't think that is all it is. At the very least it is that plus character growth on the part of Theon using a good literary medium to do so. However we know George is better than just good. I am certain there is more meaning here.

 

At the very least these may all be reminders that there is no longer a Stark at Winterfell, the place of the dream, and there must always be a Stark at Winterfell. I don't like that being all of it either and I'm sure there is more there as well,

[addicted to snow]

Lyanna is just another footnote in the never-ending game of thrones. She wasn't even the direct cause of the Robert's Rebellion, that honor went to Aerys, being the lunatic/moron that he was.

 

No doubt Aerys was mad, but there is more to the trial by combat where Aerys was championed by wildfire against Rickard...

 

Aerys was the king of Fire...

 

Rickard was the Lord of Ice...

 

There is more to this showdown than currently meets the reader's eye, but it will be revealed in due time... Aerys had a reason for burning Rickard... A reason that is rooted in Magic...

[Lady Dyanna]

 
No doubt Aerys was mad, but there is more to the trial by combat where Aerys was championed by wildfire against Rickard...
 
Aerys was the king of Fire...
 
Rickard was the Lord of Ice...
 
There is more to this showdown than currently meets the reader's eye, but it will be revealed in due time... Aerys had a reason for burning Rickard... A reason that is rooted in Magic...

Alright, ATS, enough with the cryptic. You just made a good point, but I have no idea where your taking it. Sorry if this is something you mentioned before. But there were like 150 threads of heresy by the time I got here. I've read through a fair few of the old ones, but I don't have the patience of a saint to get to them all. Now can you please explain where you're taking this?

[addicted to snow]

Alright, ATS, enough with the cryptic. You just made a good point, but I have no idea where your taking it. Sorry if this is something you mentioned before. But there were like 150 threads of heresy by the time I got here. I've read through a fair few of the old ones, but I don't have the patience of a saint to get to them all. Now can you please explain where you're taking this?

I'm not taking it anywhere... I just know that based upon the way that GRRM writes, there is something going on with the Aerys/Rickard Trial by combat that has yet to be revealed to the reader...

[addicted to snow]

Black Crow (From Previous Thread):

 

"The animal skulls at the gate suggest that there might be some kind of warding in place, and Craster clearly believes that he and his are safe."

 

---

I don't recall having seen any sculls associated with the Warding at the Wall, at Storm's End, and though there are lots of skulls inside Bran's Cave, I don't recall there being any at the mouth of the cave where the warding is in place...

 

I think those skulls foreshadow the deaths of both Craster & Mormont...

 

---

& I don't believe that Craster Clearly believes that he & his are safe...

 

Why??? 

 

Because he says [paraphrase]:: "I don't need to head for the wall, I'm a Godly Man, but I will take a sharp new axe"

 

He's saying 'I'm safe, yet I need an axe'... Something is not consistent here & I believe that this is GRRM telling us that Craster is no safer than any other wilding...

 

[Lady Dyanna]

Black Crow's PhotoBlack Crow
Today, 10:30 AM
The animal skulls at the gate suggest that there might be some kind of warding in place, and Craster clearly believes that he and his are safe.

Interesting suggestion. I agree that Craster does believe he is safe. (Whether or not this was true is uncertain) Additionally, animal skulls are a weird gesture to welcome guests. Seems a pretty flag or banner might do a better job... Is there anything else about the skulls that leads you to believe they may be part of a ward, or just an instinct?

[Lady Dyanna]

I'm not taking it anywhere... I just know that based upon the way that GRRM writes, there is something going on with the Aerys/Rickard Trial by combat that has yet to be revealed to the reader...

Oh, ok. You had me all excited for a moment there. It really is a good observation. Never stopped to think of it that way myself. :cheers:

[Reposado]

I'm not taking it anywhere... I just know that based upon the way that GRRM writes, there is something going on with the Aerys/Rickard Trial by combat that has yet to be revealed to the reader...

 

i mean there could be but that is pretty speculative. what makes you think that that particular event isn't as seems

[WhitewolfStark]

Interesting suggestion. I agree that Craster does believe he is safe. (Whether or not this was true is uncertain) Additionally, animal skulls are a weird gesture to welcome guests. Seems a pretty flag or banner might do a better job... Is there anything else about the skulls that leads you to believe they may be part of a ward, or just an instinct?

 

Traditionally putting skulls up is a way to ward off unwelcomed guests, usually of the human variety--especially if they're of large animals that are hard to take down, it kinda is a big way of saying: "don't f*** with me and mine, I can take down a bear by myself". Craster's all right with the gods, it's the other "wildlings" that he's got to look out for, who'd want to steal his women. That's why the skulls are there IMO.

[Lord Ravenstark]

"There are men who call themselves mages and warlocks," Maester Luwin said. "I had a friend at the Citadel who could pull a rose out of your ear, but he was no more magical than I was. Oh, to be sure, there is much we do not understand. The years pass in their hundreds and their thousands, and what does any man see of life but a few summers, a few winters? We look at mountains and call them eternal, and so they seem . . . but in the course of time, mountains rise and fall, rivers change their courses, stars fall from the sky, and great cities sink beneath the sea. Even gods die, we think. Everything changes.

If even gods die, to become mortal themselves, what is the difference between a god and a really powerful man?