Black Crow Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 The more I think about it, the more I like the Idea that Lyanna was wight at the time that she have birth... 'A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death' [paraphrase]: 'rose petals spilled from her hands, dead & black' (but the previous quote just established that rose petals were still blue, so it must have been her hands that were dead & black)... A more straightforward reading would be that the ones spilling from her hands were dead and black because she had crushed them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Nah... [!] he didn't see himself wearing armour of black ice, he was wearing that armour as he defended the Wall against all comers hahahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 A more straightforward reading would be that the ones spilling from her hands were dead and black because she had crushed them. Proper English dictates that it is the rose petals that were dead & black... But in the same dream sequence, GRRM has already established that the rose petals are as blue as the eyes of death... I don't see how crushing them would change the color... -- I think that it was written very carefully so that it could be interpreted both ways... -- In the end I think it will be revealed that she was a wight... Or Martin has at least left himself that option... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 Crush rose petals, as you would when clenching your fists in pain, and they will indeed bruise and darken. The blue ones first mentioned would very likely turn black or at least so nearly black as to make no odds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Dragons Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 which prophecies have come true? The ghost of high heart- well Renly was already dead, not sure about Balon yet, but Cat is still alive. Although might be green dreams vs prophecies: I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this I dreamt, and more.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ravenstark Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Proper English dictates that it is the rose petals that were dead & black... But in the same dream sequence, GRRM has already established that the rose petals are as blue as the eyes of death... I don't see how crushing them would change the color... -- I think that it was written very carefully so that it could be interpreted both ways... -- In the end I think it will be revealed that she was a wight... Or Martin has at least left himself that option... Flowers get brownish when you scratch or crush them, because they die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Proper English dictates that it is the rose petals that were dead & black... But in the same dream sequence, GRRM has already established that the rose petals are as blue as the eyes of death... I don't see how crushing them would change the color... -- I think that it was written very carefully so that it could be interpreted both ways... -- In the end I think it will be revealed that she was a wight... Or Martin has at least left himself that option... Rose petals--my kid plays with roses from the garden. Ivory ones and coral ones. For both colors, the petals turn brown and even black after a short time of her playing with them and crushing them in her hands. So--the petals turning black is an option. Though I've no idea how much time Martin spends crushing rose petals. . . But I do think the "blue as death" is a pointer to something. Have trouble seeing Lyanna as a wight if for no other (bad pun) reason than that she speaks to Ned at the end (promise me, Ned). And I can't think of any evidence that wights are verbal beasties. But does seem to be a narrative hint at Jon's role in the north. And at the Wall. And with the Others. Even shows that Ned associates blue with death (interesting given the roses)--and he let Jon go to the Wall. Jon's death is associated with Lya's death, which is associated with the blue eyes of wights and Others. A birth tied not just to his mother's death, but the undead Others. His life/role is tied to them. How exactly this will play out? Not sure. But I do think the imagery is a pointer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Or, to make a comparison to other characters that seem to be the inheritors of some sort of magical legacy, both Dany and Bran have had to pay terrible prices to arrive at their present positions. And, in Bran's case, I think the future only holds more horror. Agree on Bran. And for Dany--have been starting to wonder about her role. Her dreams in the House of the Undying--the Targ dreams are dark. Aerys in the throne room and Viserys's delightful death. Even the one with Rhaegar--he thinks of the "3 heads" as being three Targs and probably his 3 children. Rhaegar thinks of unity. But Dany's dragons aren't Targ unity. She sacrificed Drogo (Dothraki husband), Rhaego (Dothraki/Targ kid), and MMD to get the dragons. In her vision, Rhaegal comes out of MMD's head. So, she (the Dragon) has 3 heads--that are NOT Targaryen. And some of her other visions--of the lion killed to get the fur Drogo gave her. Of Silver--given by Drogo. Of the Dosh Khaleen and the Mother of Mountains--seems like Dany is set up as a Dothraki warlord. A human version of the Wild Hunt preparing to descend on Westeros. Leading with dragons would give it a more supernatural bent. But, given her failures at ruling, it really seems like Dany is not being set up to be a savior. The synopsis says they all work together in the end. But how much damage Dany could do before then. . . all the stuff about bloodlines and magical legacies--Dany seems to completely believe it. And that belief seems to be setting her up to be something VERY dangerous vs. any kind of savior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 I agree on the imagery and in particular how the imagery associated with Jon links him with the blue eyed lot. What I find intriguing is why the blue roses are associated with Winterfell and why Lord Eddard who seemingly disdained all knowledge of things that go bump in the night associated the colour of those roses with the eyes of death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 I agree on the imagery and in particular how the imagery associated with Jon links him with the blue eyed lot. What I find intriguing is why the blue roses are associated with Winterfell and why Lord Eddard who seemingly disdained all knowledge of things that go bump in the night associated the colour of those roses with the eyes of death Yes--this is part of what I was getting at. Reminds me a bit of Luwin's getting himself to the heart tree before dying. Maybe it was just peaceful. Maybe something more. Ned's memory--presumably including all the stories he's heard from Nan that he also tells to his children--seems to be associating the things together. Am not sure if the roses per se mean something vs. Ned's having seen them as loved by Lyanna and now they are associated with her death. But the fact that he remembers and associates the blue roses and Lya's death with the Others--says something about Ned's memory. And probably about the roses connecting the Starks to north of the Wall (IE: via Bael the Bard). But on Ned's memory and what was said above re: prophecy: seems like there's a difference in focus between the Starks and the Targs. Starks have a collective memory and history of stories and lessons from those stories. Stories they all remember at various times. Information Ned associates with "blue," even as he eschews the stories. Stark stories are often almost like fables--learn from this. Whereas Dany (and the Targs) seem focused on prophecy. Some evidence says they came to Westeros chasing the PTWP prophecy. They chase the future, vs. learning from the past. I've looked a bit and can't find stories like the Stark ones for the Targs. Granted, Valyria went BOOM! Or perhaps DOOM! But still, no stories anywhere near as specific as the Stark ones. Targ stories are newer and often about Targs turning on each other. And Summerhall and even Baelor the Blessed--seem to be about chasing an ideal vs. learning from the past. Bottom line: Ned's memories and stories make an association (willingly or not) with Jon--that looks like it might end up being true. The Targ focus on prophecy has yet to yield positive results (that I can see--happy to be corrected). The Starks are tied together via stories and blood and wolves. Dany let her only "pack mate" be killed off. Her only Targ storyteller. Seems like there's a chance stories and history are better preparation for "truth" than prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Rose petals--my kid plays with roses from the garden. Ivory ones and coral ones. For both colors, the petals turn brown and even black after a short time of her playing with them and crushing them in her hands. So--the petals turning black is an option. Though I've no idea how much time Martin spends crushing rose petals. . . But I do think the "blue as death" is a pointer to something. Have trouble seeing Lyanna as a wight if for no other (bad pun) reason than that she speaks to Ned at the end (promise me, Ned). And I can't think of any evidence that wights are verbal beasties. But does seem to be a narrative hint at Jon's role in the north. And at the Wall. And with the Others. Even shows that Ned associates blue with death (interesting given the roses)--and he let Jon go to the Wall. Jon's death is associated with Lya's death, which is associated with the blue eyes of wights and Others. A birth tied not just to his mother's death, but the undead Others. His life/role is tied to them. How exactly this will play out? Not sure. But I do think the imagery is a pointer. Just to play devils advocate a bit, as someone recently pointed out to me in another place, we do have evidence of a talking wight. Coldhands... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 I agree on the imagery and in particular how the imagery associated with Jon links him with the blue eyed lot. What I find intriguing is why the blue roses are associated with Winterfell and why Lord Eddard who seemingly disdained all knowledge of things that go bump in the night associated the colour of those roses with the eyes of death Or is Ned blocking something out? I'm on my phone and can't pull over the quote right now, but if I remember correctly there's a gap of time that he does not remember surrounding Lyanna and her death. What happened in that missing time? It may be nothing and it might not point to anything, but this time gap and Ned's distaste for the supernatural could very well point to some hidden meaning or event. It's at least enough to make you wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Yes--this is part of what I was getting at. Reminds me a bit of Luwin's getting himself to the heart tree before dying. Maybe it was just peaceful. Maybe something more. Ned's memory--presumably including all the stories he's heard from Nan that he also tells to his children--seems to be associating the things together. Am not sure if the roses per se mean something vs. Ned's having seen them as loved by Lyanna and now they are associated with her death. But the fact that he remembers and associates the blue roses and Lya's death with the Others--says something about Ned's memory. And probably about the roses connecting the Starks to north of the Wall (IE: via Bael the Bard). But on Ned's memory and what was said above re: prophecy: seems like there's a difference in focus between the Starks and the Targs. Starks have a collective memory and history of stories and lessons from those stories. Stories they all remember at various times. Information Ned associates with "blue," even as he eschews the stories. Stark stories are often almost like fables--learn from this. Whereas Dany (and the Targs) seem focused on prophecy. Some evidence says they came to Westeros chasing the PTWP prophecy. They chase the future, vs. learning from the past. I've looked a bit and can't find stories like the Stark ones for the Targs. Granted, Valyria went BOOM! Or perhaps DOOM! But still, no stories anywhere near as specific as the Stark ones. Targ stories are newer and often about Targs turning on each other. And Summerhall and even Baelor the Blessed--seem to be about chasing an ideal vs. learning from the past. Bottom line: Ned's memories and stories make an association (willingly or not) with Jon--that looks like it might end up being true. The Targ focus on prophecy has yet to yield positive results (that I can see--happy to be corrected). The Starks are tied together via stories and blood and wolves. Dany let her only "pack mate" be killed off. Her only Targ storyteller. Seems like there's a chance stories and history are better preparation for "truth" than prophecy. I agree with nearly all of what you said. I will point out, however, that prophecy did save the Targaryans from the big DOOM! BOOM! Without it they may not have survived to be part of today's story. (Unless of course they were somehow involved, but as we have no evidence of that...) I am also quite distrustful of Dany. As you have said before, she is definitely quite isolated. There is currently really no one left to point her in the right direction. Plus with this latest turn towards fire and blood... Who is there to pull her back from this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 In considering the "blue as the eyes of death" phrase I'm irresistibly reminded of these lines: …”What colour are their eyes?” he asked her. “Blue. As bright as blue stars, and as cold.” She has seen them, he thought. Craster lied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 Bottom line: Ned's memories and stories make an association (willingly or not) with Jon--that looks like it might end up being true. The Targ focus on prophecy has yet to yield positive results (that I can see--happy to be corrected). The Starks are tied together via stories and blood and wolves. Dany let her only "pack mate" be killed off. Her only Targ storyteller. Seems like there's a chance stories and history are better preparation for "truth" than prophecy. Its an interesting thought and perhaps another way of expressing it might be that the Starksalready belong to the Old Gods whilst the Targaryens aspire through prophecy to belong to the new Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran the Bringer Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Wasn't part of the prophecy of the Daenys "the Dreamer" Targaryen about not only the Doom of Valyria but also the Doom of Man coming out of Westeros? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 I still like the idea of the prince that was promised is a Westeros prophecy. Kinda makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 What I find intriguing is why the blue roses are associated with Winterfell and why Lord Eddard who seemingly disdained all knowledge of things that go bump in the night associated the colour of those roses with the eyes of death Because Lyanna was a Wight when he found her... --- I totally get that, in real life, rose petals darken & turn black with time as they dry out... But in this story, they were still blue... as blue as the eyes of death... --- GRRM wrote Eddard's Dream Sequence so that one day we will be able to look back & say OMG, she was a Wight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Howdy everyone... :cheers: A few quick notes... Crush rose petals, as you would when clenching your fists in pain, and they will indeed bruise and darken. The blue ones first mentioned would very likely turn black or at least so nearly black as to make no odds. Add a bit of blood, a bit of gore, and yup, those petals will quickly appear dark indeed. which prophecies have come true? I think we can add Maggy to the list. At least partially thus far (the friend's death, and Cersei's marriage, children, husband's bastards, shrouds...). I'm also tempted to mention Old Nan accurately identifying Dragons, even though she's blind, and in Winterfell, with no more evidence than the scent of the Red Comet... and Osha identifying the words of House Targaryen, with nothing more than the sight of it.... Bran I - ACOK Maester Luwin did not think so. "Wolves often howl at the moon. These are howling at the comet. See how bright it is, Bran? Perchance they think it is the moon." When Bran repeated that to Osha, she laughed aloud. "Your wolves have more wit than your maester," the wildling woman said. "They know truths the grey man has forgotten." The way she said it made him shiver, and when he asked what the comet meant, she answered, "Blood and fire, boy, and nothing sweet." Bran asked Septon Chayle about the comet while they were sorting through some scrolls snatched from the library fire. "It is the sword that slays the season," he replied, and soon after the white raven came from Oldtown bringing word of autumn, so doubtless he was right. Though Old Nan did not think so, and she'd lived longer than any of them. "Dragons," she said, lifting her head and sniffing. She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it. "It be dragons, boy," she insisted. Bran got no princes from Nan, no more than he ever had. (Old Nan also seems to know that the reign of the KitN will be over quite soon, if it ever began at all.) Just to play devils advocate a bit, as someone recently pointed out to me in another place, we do have evidence of a talking wight. Coldhands... I'd argue that the ability to speak is what makes Coldhands not a wight, but I've been known to widen semantic divides. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e1kabong Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 I can´t see how Ice and Fire can emerge in something other than water. Stuff like this is why my favorite pet theories revolve around the stories relation to the Norse myth of Ragnarok. An end times story where the world undergoes a great winter and is scoured by fire. In this turmoil and time of war, the land sinks beneath the sea. The description of the type of world Ragnarok takes place in certainly sounds exactly like the world GRRM has built: "Brothers will fight and kill each other, sisters' children will defile kinship. It is harsh in the world, whoredom rife; an axe age, a sword age; shields are riven; a wind age, a wolf age; before the world goes headlong. No man will have mercy on another." This idea of the end of the world coming as a literal (or, more likely, figurative) submergence under water are also a good way to frame the cleverness of Patchface's prophecies, with "under the sea" being symbolically interchangeable with "when the world is ending". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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