Heresy 176

[Phillip Frye]

Using just Bloodraven as an example, any efforts to explore the breadth of what he is (or is not) up to, or what his motives are, will gain little traction here, because it's practically Heresy canon that Bloodraven is "really a Blackwood," and that whole chunks of his life spent with the Targ regime are either irrelevant, or only relevant in terms of the Bracken/Blackwood feud. Some posters even go so far as to invent outright fan fiction about how BR was "raised as a Blackwood," something not at all stated or supported by the text.

 

In any event, Aegor Rivers was all Bracken, raised at Stone Hedge, loathed Bloodraven and Melissa Blackwood, and modified the Bracken sigil for his own personal coat-of-arms.  So, the Bracken-Blackwood rivalry existed between Bittersteel and Bloodraven regardless of whether Bloodraven was raised at Raventree Hall.  Bittersteel saw to it.

[Phillip Frye]

Thinking about Aegor Bracken, there is some similarities between his character arc and Ishmael and Esau.  Both were older brothers who were ultimately cast out and displaced by their younger brothers (Isaac and Jacob, respectively).

[TheSmallOther]

Eh...this isn't really what I was getting at, and seems a little overly dire. By and large, I think BC has been a force for good, I just think he may underestimate the amount of referent power he wields within this thread--by weighing in on something, he does tend to set the tone for the next several pages, even if that wasn't his intent.

To be frank, what I'm getting at is more of a criticism of Heresy itself, which is not limited to any single poster. I think this thread has gone a little too far in trying to make itself the "answer" to RLJ mania; there's a perception that the community (and, in particular, the RLJ thread) is giving disproportionate focus to all things related to Targaryens, secret Targaryens, dragons, and sitting the Iron Throne. Thus, as an answer, this thread specifically crafts theories that give disproportionate emphasis to all things related to the Starks, the North, and the CotF, often at the expense of more nuanced and inclusive conclusions.

To me, the answer to perceived RLJ dogmatism is not to be dogmatic in the opposite direction, the answer is objectivity, critical thought, and a willingness to not just see what's flawed about a theory, but also to see what's supportive of a theory - even if we personally dislike that theory, and hope it doesn't turn out to be true.

It's that last metric where I think Heresy is really falling short; at the risk of playing forums mind reader, it seems pretty clear to me that several posters really, really dislike anything related to the Targaryens, to the idea of dragon riding, and to the idea of Azor Ahai, to such an extent that their theories ignore huge elements of the plot; thus, Jon is all Stark, Bloodraven is all Blackwood, and heaven help the poster who dares to come in here and suggest that someone's favorite character might end up as a dragon rider (or warging into a dragon).

In short, I think discussions in Heresy would be well served if this thread just let go of its...rivalry?... with certain segments of the forums, and attempt to assess ideas in a vacuum, instead of allowing their personal dislike for other posters and ideas to bleed into every discussion. 

 

Well, I'm not sure about all who post here, but I can answer for myself. Yes, I like to believe that Targaryens are over-emphasized. Not so much in the books, by the way, but in the fan forums. Too often you may see theories "A is Targaryen, B is Targaryen, C is secret Targaryen, D is secret Targaryen, comming from A and B line. E is a child of C and someone in the wild, he/she will inherit the throne. Of course if it is not for F, who is the child of D and has similar claims". At some point one starts to think if Targaryens matter so much. Of course, they were dominant civilization in Essos at some point. They came to Westeros, proved their military advantage over everyone and ruled there. For what - few hundred years? So short a history when you compare to the history of First Men or COTF. Doesn't surprise me much when you see people leaning to Starks and the North over Targaryens.

 

But I believe I see your point in being non-dogmatic. This is at least how I expect Heresy to be. Most of time it was/is that way. Of course, people stick to their theories. When they do, they become quite suspicious about opposing ones. But still you can find quite a variety of different theories here. And posters are still talking to each other :)

[Black Crow]

We are and I think that this particular question has had a good airing. Everything in this game is a matter of perception and interpretation, but unless we descend into "you said - he/she said" its not really going to get us anywhere, so lets call it a day now and stick to arguing about the text rather than the argument  :cool4:

[Matthew.]

 

I still don't get what your saying and why.Whose dismissing other scenarios? For heavens sake we have some who believe Mance,Robert,Rhaegar,Arthur,Howland and even Jon being the son of an Other If anything this thread has the most diverse opinions when it comes to who Jon's parents are ,so again i'm a bit confused as to what the problem is about Heresy not "living up to the standard of debate" we wouldn't have all these beliefs if debate was being hindering.Everyone should know by now and if they don't its worth repeating again.

If you don't agree with my assessment, that's fine. It's just my opinion of what I see as a sour undercurrent to an otherwise enjoyable thread, which is the rather frequent reinforcing of this idea of the RLJers as a hivemind of "the faithful," as well as expressing a derision for their ideas--which was the way I perceived that "real problem" comment from BC a couple pages ago.

Indeed, on the Sable Hall forums (populated by many Heresy posers), it wouldn't even be accurate to call it an undercurrent, as the front page of the General section was filled with thread after thread devoted to essentially saying "Hey, look at what this stupid idiot just said on Westeros.org," which was a tone that I found more than a little weird, petulant, and pathetically obsessive.

I acknowledge that I'm possibly being unfair, presumptuous, or painting with a broad brush, but from my perspective, the level of discourse in this thread is really not so different from all of the echo chamber threads that certain posters here deride.  :dunno:

[Matthew.]

We are and I think that this particular question has had a good airing. Everything in this game is a matter of perception and interpretation, but unless we descend into "you said - he/she said" its not really going to get us anywhere, so lets call it a day now and stick to arguing about the text rather than the argument  :cool4:

Fair enough. I'm becoming tedious and repetitive at this point, and I am probably unfairly taking out my frustration with the tone of Sable Hall on this thread.

[Black Crow]

On the question of the use and abuse of greenseeing powers, I think that its worth looking at Bloodraven as Kurtz.

 

Back in the day, as I acknowledged, although the old Blackwood/Bracken feud provided addition edge, he was indeed a prominent figure in the old Targaryen regime. Then came a fall from grace, a period on the Wall and finally his own journey into the heart of darkness. The timeline on the latter part of this is tolerably vague, but Maester Aemon holds up a mirror to it in in telling how he watched the downfall of his house but could not intervene. Bloodraven must have seen it too, yet as Kurtz he too could only watch.

 

Was this because he completely repudiated his Targaryen heritage - after all given his record he can hardly be accused of being meek and mild - or was it the nature of greenseeing.

 

The point I'm making is that if we step back and look at what greenseers, even as powerful as Kurtz actually do, its not a lot. They can see, obviously. They can [or did] skinchange*, and they can come to people in dreams, but that appears to be all we've seen thus far. Its important to remember that the big stuff, like the Hammer of the Waters required multiple and probably many greenseers all working together rather than a single operator.

 

I therefore wouldn't see Bran, far less Rickon, having the power to destroy. If powers are involved though I might be tempted to see Rickon as another Varamyr.

 

 

*this is something I'm not sure about, they certainly start off as wargs/skinchangers, but I think a degree of personal contact may be necessary to maintain it in the long term. We don't know why the crows are in the cave but I think the likeliest explanation is that the singers are still riding them as and when required, but Kurtz and any other greenseers immobilised in their trees may not be actively skinchanging anybody, but rather operate in the dreamworld.

[Regular John Umber]

To me, the answer to perceived RLJ dogmatism is not to be dogmatic in the opposite direction, the answer is objectivity, critical thought, and a willingness to not just see what's flawed about a theory, but also to see what's supportive of a theory - even if we personally dislike that theory, and hope it doesn't turn out to be true.

It's that last metric where I think Heresy is really falling short

I think that's the point of a 'heresy' though: going against dogma. RLJ has reached the level of 'canon' in a lot of people's minds, as well as everything else that gets tossed around in these threads.

I've never seen anyone's arguments get dismissed out of hand, or insulted (well, ok, there's a few that get made fun of in good spirits).

It just seems silly to me to come to a thread that's clearly all about questioning the 'accepted version' of what's happening in ASOIAF, and not expect to have 'accepted' ideas questioned.

[Tucu]

 

 

No I did not imply there should be more Stark greenseers, nor do I think it would make the story more interesting. That was a response to someone else's discussion of it.

 

I was really only suggesting, not saying I believe it, that it takes a certain personality type and a lack of wholeness to become a greenseer beyond just the blood. 1 in 1000 CotF become skinchangers 1 in 1000 skinchangers become greenseers. So not everyone "with the blood" as it were is necessarily capable of of becoming a greenseer.

 

This was as a response to a question as to why Bran wasn't freaking out about the deaths of the CotF as described by Leaf and how humans would have been wroth.

 

As to how terrifying Bran may become the door is literally wide open. If the Weirwood 'net extends as far as I expect and if the powers usuable by a greenseer can operate through that 'net well the implication is certainly huge as to areas that could be affected without him having to move. It may still just be localized personal magical phenomenon like speaking through the trees or skinchanging someone near wherever those Weirwoods are as opposed to say snow storms that rage all the way to the borders of Dorne. But it does lead the mind to wander.

 

The thought that 10's of thousands of years worth of CotF have literally implanted their memories and knowledges, maybe their souls, in the trees accessable to him now or very soon in addition to BR's assuming he gets to die and implant his memories is even a terrifying thought as to what that could do to someone's psychology and what kind of person might emerge on the other side.

 

And speaking of BR is it fair to say that his presence as a greenseer with the knowledge of different ways of working magic than the CotF is unique?

Is he the First Human Greenseer? I don't recall there being another. I might be a little suspicious if there hadn't been another but I could logically explain it myself.

Has there been another Greenseer with half-Targ blood?

Did BR reconcile his knowledge/ability to perform more human style sorcery with the abilities of a CotF Greenseer? With his knowledges/abilities with Dragons? Could Bran inherit these potentially new magics upon the death and merging of BR?

 

That has been knocking around my head lately and I can't dismiss it. Please help me falsify. I can't find an example of another human greenseer or another half Targ greenseer in the text.

 

See we talk about Targ stuff sometimes. :grouphug:

The quote you mentioned before indicates that there have been human greenseers before:

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," said Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, "and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer."

 

Other pieces of evidence:

-The human size weirwood throne in the Hollow Hill. It was big enough for Beric Dondarrion.

-The Weirwood throne in the Eyre and the Oakenseat of House Gardener seems to be a "cargo cult" way of reclaiming powers long lost.

-The Starks tombs in the shapes of thrones buried in a big cave strongly remind me of the way a greenseer looks, gaunt face included.

-The Pact of Isle of Faces points towards the peace being achieved between CoTF greenseers and human greenseers.

 

Regarding the composition of the weirwood hivemind. We know the CoTF, human wargs and human greenseers can join the hivemind. We don't know if normal humans that die near weirwoods join it too. Leaf tells Bran to avoid trying to reach the dead; the dead humans might be stored too, but Bran is not ready to contact them yet.

The CoTF are long lived and their population was always low. They have been living in Westeros for hundredth of thousands of years.

Men are short lived but they multiply fast. They have lived in Westeros for 12000 years.

So my question is: have men overrun the CoTF inside the hivemind too?

[Melifeather]

On the question of the use and abuse of greenseeing powers, I think that its worth looking at Bloodraven as Kurtz.

 

Back in the day, as I acknowledged, although the old Blackwood/Bracken feud provided addition edge, he was indeed a prominent figure in the old Targaryen regime. Then came a fall from grace, a period on the Wall and finally his own journey into the heart of darkness. The timeline on the latter part of this is tolerably vague, but Maester Aemon holds up a mirror to it in in telling how he watched the downfall of his house but could not intervene. Bloodraven must have seen it too, yet as Kurtz he too could only watch.

 

Was this because he completely repudiated his Targaryen heritage - after all given his record he can hardly be accused of being meek and mild - or was it the nature of greenseeing.

 

The point I'm making is that if we step back and look at what greenseers, even as powerful as Kurtz actually do, its not a lot. They can see, obviously. They can [or did] skinchange*, and they can come to people in dreams, but that appears to be all we've seen thus far. Its important to remember that the big stuff, like the Hammer of the Waters required multiple and probably many greenseers all working together rather than a single operator.

 

I therefore wouldn't see Bran, far less Rickon, having the power to destroy. If powers are involved though I might be tempted to see Rickon as another Varamyr.

 

 

*this is something I'm not sure about, they certainly start off as wargs/skinchangers, but I think a degree of personal contact may be necessary to maintain it in the long term. We don't know why the crows are in the cave but I think the likeliest explanation is that the singers are still riding them as and when required, but Kurtz and any other greenseers immobilised in their trees may not be actively skinchanging anybody, but rather operate in the dreamworld.

 

 

I think it would be difficult to attribute the actions of someone as being influenced by the subtle manipulations of a greenseer, although evita mgfs is very persuasive about Bran's powers in her thread : http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/132143-brans-growing-powers-after-his-final-pov-in-adwd/?p=7152307

[Lord Ravenstark]

 
 
No I did not imply there should be more Stark greenseers, nor do I think it would make the story more interesting. That was a response to someone else's discussion of it.
 
I was really only suggesting, not saying I believe it, that it takes a certain personality type and a lack of wholeness to become a greenseer beyond just the blood. 1 in 1000 CotF become skinchangers 1 in 1000 skinchangers become greenseers. So not everyone "with the blood" as it were is necessarily capable of of becoming a greenseer.
 
This was as a response to a question as to why Bran wasn't freaking out about the deaths of the CotF as described by Leaf and how humans would have been wroth.
 
As to how terrifying Bran may become the door is literally wide open. If the Weirwood 'net extends as far as I expect and if the powers usuable by a greenseer can operate through that 'net well the implication is certainly huge as to areas that could be affected without him having to move. It may still just be localized personal magical phenomenon like speaking through the trees or skinchanging someone near wherever those Weirwoods are as opposed to say snow storms that rage all the way to the borders of Dorne. But it does lead the mind to wander.
 
The thought that 10's of thousands of years worth of CotF have literally implanted their memories and knowledges, maybe their souls, in the trees accessable to him now or very soon in addition to BR's assuming he gets to die and implant his memories is even a terrifying thought as to what that could do to someone's psychology and what kind of person might emerge on the other side.
 
And speaking of BR is it fair to say that his presence as a greenseer with the knowledge of different ways of working magic than the CotF is unique?
Is he the First Human Greenseer? I don't recall there being another. I might be a little suspicious if there hadn't been another but I could logically explain it myself.
Has there been another Greenseer with half-Targ blood?
Did BR reconcile his knowledge/ability to perform more human style sorcery with the abilities of a CotF Greenseer? With his knowledges/abilities with Dragons? Could Bran inherit these potentially new magics upon the death and merging of BR?
 
That has been knocking around my head lately and I can't dismiss it. Please help me falsify. I can't find an example of another human greenseer or another half Targ greenseer in the text.
 
See we talk about Targ stuff sometimes. :grouphug:

I believe Bran was supposed to be greenseer even before his lack of wholeness, and becoming detached. In fact, I believe Bran is supposed to be a greenseer because it is the logical extension of himself.

"When he got out from under it and scrambled up near the sky, Bran could see all of Winterfell in a glance. He liked the way it looked, spread out beneath him, only birds wheeling over his head while all the life of the castle went on below. Bran could perch for hours among the shapeless, rain-worn gargoyles that brooded over the First Keep, watching it all: the men drilling with wood and steel in the yard, the cook tending their vegetables in a glass garden, restless dogs running back and forth in the kennels, the silence of the godswood, the girls gossiping beside the washing well. It made him feel like he was a lord of the castle, in a way even Robb would never know."

"Bran looked down, and felt his insides turn to water. The ground was rushing up at him now. The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry white and brown and green. He could see everything so clearly that for a moment he forgot to be afraid. He could see the whole realm, and everyone in it."

That is Bran before and after his fall. Before becoming detached, when he was the sweet and active boy. Bran didn't change, he became sad but he did not change. He could look the whole of his realm even before losing his wholeness and becoming detached, too. That's why becoming a greenseer is so part of him, it was meant for him to become a greenseer. Bloodraven would have noticed it too, he watched over him for all of the boy's life. That is why I don't think Bran becoming paraplegic was necessary for him to become a greenseer, but it made him seem it sooner.

He had a clear vision of everything that happened around him, he was a lord in ways no one else would ever been. His curiosity showed that. That is why I believe the only logical thing is for him to become a greenseer, regardless of what happens in his later life.
Also, he survived two assassination attempts. The gods gave him back, they chose him and there is no reason to claim his life before the time.

Now Bran sits on his throne, looking at the world in a way even greater than before. And now with the power and agency to act. How he will act, and if he will act, only the gods know. In this case, only him and his mentor knows.

[Bran the Bringer]

I believe Bran was supposed to be greenseer even before his lack of wholeness, and becoming detached. In fact, I believe Bran is supposed to be a greenseer because it is the logical extension of himself.

"When he got out from under it and scrambled up near the sky, Bran could see all of Winterfell in a glance. He liked the way it looked, spread out beneath him, only birds wheeling over his head while all the life of the castle went on below. Bran could perch for hours among the shapeless, rain-worn gargoyles that brooded over the First Keep, watching it all: the men drilling with wood and steel in the yard, the cook tending their vegetables in a glass garden, restless dogs running back and forth in the kennels, the silence of the godswood, the girls gossiping beside the washing well. It made him feel like he was a lord of the castle, in a way even Robb would never know."

"Bran looked down, and felt his insides turn to water. The ground was rushing up at him now. The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry white and brown and green. He could see everything so clearly that for a moment he forgot to be afraid. He could see the whole realm, and everyone in it."

That is Bran before and after his fall. Before becoming detached, when he was the sweet and active boy. Bran didn't change, he became sad but he did not change. He could look the whole of his realm even before losing his wholeness and becoming detached, too. That's why becoming a greenseer is so part of him, it was meant for him to become a greenseer. Bloodraven would have noticed it too, he watched over him for all of the boy's life. That is why I don't think Bran becoming paraplegic was necessary for him to become a greenseer, but it made him seem it sooner.

He had a clear vision of everything that happened around him, he was a lord in ways no one else would ever been. His curiosity showed that. That is why I believe the only logical thing is for him to become a greenseer, regardless of what happens in his later life.
Also, he survived two assassination attempts. The gods gave him back, they chose him and there is no reason to claim his life before the time.

Now Bran sits on his throne, looking at the world in a way even greater than before. And now with the power and agency to act. How he will act, and if he will act, only the gods know. In this case, only him and his mentor knows.

 

I do not disagree that he had the blood previous to his fall. He may have been having Greendreams, like Jojen, his whole life. Greendreams do not make a Greenseer, they may be a prerequisite but you can have them without then becoming a Greenseer. However the text says they are not robust, that their lives are short and that the magic takes a toll on them to keep balance.

 

Many shamanistic societies, require some form of extreme ascetcism and loss of the whole being to be able to talk and walk to the spirit world. Some view this as a way to make room in the soul for a spirit animal. Some say that is because magic exacts a terrible price. Some say this is a mark from the gods to show their favor and these are just a few real world analogs to the question.

 

As far as Bran changing, you yourself say he became detached and that is precisely the point. It may be that it requires this sort of emotional detachment to "marry the trees". Beyond which it is nearly impossible for an accident of that magnitude not to affect a child, it just doesn't happen that way. Most children in his position become detached and "wiser" or better said take a longer view of things than their non-injured counterparts.

 

So was he destined to be the Greenseer? Yes

Was he destined to become paralyzed? Probably yes. No Greenseer is robust, their lives outside the tree are short and magic takes a toll on them to achieve balance.

Was he destined to meet with and be trained by BR? The text currently seems to point to yes.

 

I do not say that one can not be destined to be a Greenseer while whole and hale, but that the process of becoming a greenseer leaves them somewhat broken and fundamentally changed. It can not be helped or avoided. It is a necessary by-product of the transformation.

[Reposado]

it says that the singers that are born to be greenseers are not robust. among singers. that does not mean that humans who have the gift are not physically whole. bloodraven is almost 130 but he was a whole and hearty adult.

[Lord Ravenstark]

 
I do not disagree that he had the blood previous to his fall. He may have been having Greendreams, like Jojen, his whole life. Greendreams do not make a Greenseer, they may be a prerequisite but you can have them without then becoming a Greenseer. However the text says they are not robust, that their lives are short and that the magic takes a toll on them to keep balance.
 
Many shamanistic societies, require some form of extreme ascetcism and loss of the whole being to be able to talk and walk to the spirit world. Some view this as a way to make room in the soul for a spirit animal. Some say that is because magic exacts a terrible price. Some say this is a mark from the gods to show their favor and these are just a few real world analogs to the question.
 
As far as Bran changing, you yourself say he became detached and that is precisely the point. It may be that it requires this sort of emotional detachment to "marry the trees". Beyond which it is nearly impossible for an accident of that magnitude not to affect a child, it just doesn't happen that way. Most children in his position become detached and "wiser" or better said take a longer view of things than their non-injured counterparts.
 
So was he destined to be the Greenseer? Yes
Was he destined to become paralyzed? Probably yes. No Greenseer is robust, their lives outside the tree are short and magic takes a toll on them to achieve balance.
Was he destined to meet with and be trained by BR? The text currently seems to point to yes.
 
I do not say that one can not be destined to be a Greenseer while whole and hale, but that the process of becoming a greenseer leaves them somewhat broken and fundamentally changed. It can not be helped or avoided. It is a necessary by-product of the transformation.

BR was a considerable fighter, and despite his albinism, he was perfectly fine until his disappearance. Yet, he is a greenseer.

[Matthew.]

it says that the singers that are born to be greenseers are not robust. among singers. that does not mean that humans who have the gift are not physically whole. bloodraven is almost 130 but he was a whole and hearty adult.

While Bloodraven may have been robust, he wasn't whole--he lost an eye. Granted, that loss isn't nearly on the scale of what Bran lost before he started having visions of the 3EC, but it may have still been enough of a loss to be a catalyst for BR's own awakening to his powers.

Edit: And, in the context of "emotional detachment," it may be the case that BR's albinism and status as a bastard lead to some degree of isolation from - and mistreatment by - his peers, which seems like fertile ground for such a world view.

[Black Crow]

 

In any event, Aegor Rivers was all Bracken, raised at Stone Hedge, loathed Bloodraven and Melissa Blackwood, and modified the Bracken sigil for his own personal coat-of-arms.  So, the Bracken-Blackwood rivalry existed between Bittersteel and Bloodraven regardless of whether Bloodraven was raised at Raventree Hall.  Bittersteel saw to it.

 

Which is precisely why I've urged the importance of Bloodraven's Blackwood heritage - and it was after all his mother who named him.

[Reposado]

While Bloodraven may have been robust, he wasn't whole--he lost an eye. Granted, that loss isn't nearly on the scale of what Bran lost before he started having visions of the 3EC, but it may have still been enough of a loss to be a catalyst for BR's own awakening to his powers.

Edit: And, in the context of "emotional detachment," it may be the case that BR's albinism and status as a bastard lead to some degree of isolation from - and mistreatment by - his peers, which seems like fertile ground for such a world view.

 

fair enough. but i'm not sure if the concept of born with greenseer abilities implying born destined to lose a body part feels right.

 

to me, the point of the singer greenseers being not robust is what leads them to use human greenseers. the singer greenseers don't last long, bloodraven has served as the greenseer for fifty years because he was robust. and he was old when he got there. bran was a robust child who lost the use of his legs,(not needed for this job anyways) the singers are probably thinking, "we are going to get 200 years out of this kid" 

[Black Crow]

While Bloodraven may have been robust, he wasn't whole--he lost an eye. Granted, that loss isn't nearly on the scale of what Bran lost before he started having visions of the 3EC, but it may have still been enough of a loss to be a catalyst for BR's own awakening to his powers.

Edit: And, in the context of "emotional detachment," it may be the case that BR's albinism and status as a bastard lead to some degree of isolation from - and mistreatment by - his peers, which seems like fertile ground for such a world view.

 

Add to which we don't know the circumstances of his passage from the realms of men to the otherlands. There are essentially two options, either [a] one fine morning he saddled up his horse and rode out from Castle Black, telling the sentry not to wait up because he might be some time, or [b] he was separated from his companions while out ranging due to a sudden injury or illness, which triggered his passage.

 

Option [b] is pure speculation of course but given what we've seen it might be more likely than [a] with or without losing one eye and gaining another, although its difficult to avoid the suspicion of a possible connection to Euron Crows Eye and Crowfood Umber - not to mention Symeon Star Eyes.

[Black Crow]

 

fair enough. but i'm not sure if the concept of born with greenseer abilities implying born destined to lose a body part feels right.

 

to me, the point of the singer greenseers being not robust is what leads them to use human greenseers. the singer greenseers don't last long, bloodraven has served as the greenseer for fifty years because he was robust. and he was old when he got there. bran was a robust child who lost the use of his legs,(not needed for this job anyways) the singers are probably thinking, "we are going to get 200 years out of this kid" 

 

I'm not sure about that; Bloodraven has certainly outlived his contemporaries and so, presumably might Bran, but it seems odd that on the one hand singers ordinarily live long as in hundreds of years long, but rather less if chosen as greenseers, while humans whose ordinary lives are but short live very much longer if nailed to a tree. Or do they live beyond their time not because they are greenseers but because vampire-like they rely on a diet of human blood to preserve them?

[Matthew.]

If I'm not mistaken, when they're talking about the (comparatively) less robust greenseers, the phrasing is something along the lines of "their time on the earth is short, but once they're in the wood, they linger long indeed."

I'm wondering how exactly that ought to be interpreted--is that a straightforward statement implying that greenseers die young, or do we already see this in effect with Bloodraven? I'm given the distinct impression that Bloodraven's "time on the earth" is long past him, and that he spends most of his time dreaming inside of weirnet.

I'm also giving some thought to Bran's exploration of the caves in Hodor's body, and the room full of corpse-like greenseers that he comes across; at they time, they seem dead, but when Bran passes with his torch, this is enough to cause them to partially stir. I'm wondering whether it's the case that, so long as the weirwood they're attached to is thriving, a greenseer does not permanently die, they just increasingly lose touch with their bodies as they sink into weirnet.