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Azor Ahai and Prince that was promised different?


Rickyhunt

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OK I know I will probably get slaughtered for posting this but is everyone really sure that Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised are the same prophecy?

The Prince that was promised comes from Valyria and Westeros and it seems to be about a great ruler who will sit on the throne one day.

Azor Ahai seems to be singularly focused on the Others and the conflict between the two gods Rhilor and the Great Other there really isn't any mention of Azor Ahai being a king he is a Messianic figure who will defeat the Others

does everyone believe the two are one in the same?
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The hints that the two are the same go back to the fact that Aemon and Melisandre seem to be in agreement that they are talking about the same guy when talking about the prophecy. Melisandre even calls Stannis 'the prince that was promised' in ASoS.

 

It is not very likely that the prophecies are identical but it could be possible that there are is a 'prophetic tradition' dating back to one and the same original prophecy, although one assume that the 'promised prince thing' is either part of a translation into the Common Tongue done after the Targaryens had conquered Westeros, or an interpretation by the Targaryens after they had concluded that a scion of their bloodline was supposed to be the guy.

 

We know that there were Red Temples in Valyria, so it is not impossible that dragonlords/Targaryens and the Red Priests have the same original prophecy.

 

What the hell Asshai has to do with any of that is completely unclear right now. Why Asshai'i prophets and prophecies should care about a special guy born from a Valyrian bloodline I don't know. That would be as likely as an ancient Chinese prophecy foretelling the rise of some Icelandic savior in the distant future.

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Yes, yes. I may be telling this a hundredth time but here you go:

My belief is that the three headed dragon is composed of Dany as Azor Ahai (the fire counterpart, who hatched dragons from stone), Bran as the Last Hero (the ice counterpart, who went seeking help from the children) and Jon as the Prince that was Promised (ice and fire, an actual prince and prophesied hero of valyrian ancestry).

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I know that Maester Aemon and Melisandre have assumed that they are both the same but could they be wrong?

There isn't any mention of the prince that was promised fighting the others or wielding a sword Rhaegar does say that it appears he must be a warrior and will require armor and a sword but he doesn't go into specifics
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But dany doesn't wield a sword and doesn't really fight hand to hand in battle like Jon does wouldn't Jon be a more likely Azor Ahai? Considering Long Claw could be turned into lightbringer somehow

 

We were advised not to take prophecies literally. Dany steped into the fire and drew out a fiery "weapon" at the cost of her beloved ones (Rhego, Drogo and Viserys). 

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Yes, yes. I may be telling this a hundredth time but here you go:

My belief is that the three headed dragon is composed of Dany as Azor Ahai (the fire counterpart, who hatched dragons from stone), Bran as the Last Hero (the ice counterpart, who went seeking help from the children) and Jon as the Prince that was Promised (ice and fire, an actual prince and prophesied hero of valyrian ancestry).

 

What about Hyrkoon the Hero? Eldric Shadowchaser? Yin Tar? Neferion?

 

BTW, there is no prophecy for the return of the Last Hero.

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What about Hyrkoon the Hero? Eldric Shadowchaser? Yin Tar? Neferion?

 

BTW, there is no prophecy for the return of the Last Hero.

 

The name are more relevant to the Word of Ice and Fire than Asoiaf. And they refer to the same hero anyway.

 

We know no prophecy for the Last Hero's return, but all Bran needs to do now is unite the children with the Night's Watch and its fulfilled.

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As long as George doesn't give us the (full) text on the prophecies we really don't have a good basis for speculation.

 

It is quite clear that nobody knows what the hell the destiny/fate of the promised prince is or else the Targaryens would have known what the hell Rhaegar had to do besides 'being a warrior'. Perhaps even the 'being a warrior' stuff is based on a false interpretation of the prophecy. Daenerys is no warrior herself (yet), but could still be the promised prince(ss).

 

The reborn stuff is also not all that important. The promised prince stuff tells of the coming of some guy, which the Red Priests seem to interpret as the rebirth/return of the Azor Ahai guy, but there is no evidence that Azor Ahai is literally supposed to be 'reborn' at all. One can interpret this thing less literally of the new hero fulfilling a similar or the same role as the Azor Ahai guy, which seems to be fighting against monsters and some darkness connected to the Long Night.

 

Considering that the Others have returned there may be something to that, but whether the Last Hero had anything to do with the Azor Ahai from the legends and myths is unclear. And subsequently we cannot say whether a 'reborn Azor Ahai' or the promised prince will become also a 'new Last Hero'. Not to mention that we have as of yet no idea what the hell the historical Last Hero actually did to end the Long Night, and have thus also no idea what the new hero may be destined to do.

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The Dragon that was Promised has to be a warrior, and is supposed to be tied to the return of dragons and the red comet (and apparently smoke and salt).  There is nothing we know of so far that indicates that TDtwP is supposed to sit on the throne.  If the rebellion hadn't happened, Viserys might have been TDtwP and never ascended the throne.

 

The Others also seem to be the main point of TDtwP's existence, as Aemon believes that to be the whole point--saving Westeros from their icy threat.  TDtwP also must be a Targaryen of Aerys and Rhaella's line.  And something about the dragon having three heads, meaning three people according to in-story understanding.

 

Azor Ahai Reborn is a bit trickier.  When the darkness gathers Azor Ahai is supposed to be born again amidst smoke and salt, while the red star bleeds.  Also something about a burning sword, the red sword of heroes and fighting the Others.  And waking dragons (or a dragon) from stone.  This one comes with a background story though, about how AA labored to create a sword that would defeat the Others and had to sacrifice his wife in order to do so.

 

They are very similar--too similar to discount the possibility of their pointing to one person. However, GRRM loves to mess with us, and it's unlikely that one hero is going to emerge as the only person who can save Westeros.  So there could be two.  Also AAR does not have to be a Targaryen, that we know of.

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The name are more relevant to the Word of Ice and Fire than Asoiaf. And they refer to the same hero anyway.

 

We know no prophecy for the Last Hero's return, but all Bran needs to do now is unite the children with the Night's Watch and its fulfilled.

 

EXACTLY, those are all the names listed in the World of Ice and Fire as referring to same hero and prophesy as Azor Ahai but originating in cultures outside of Asshai. So if TPTWP really does refers to Azor Ahai and Melisandre conversation with Aemon was intended to officially confirm that these figures are one in the same then why doesn't The world of Ice and fire just list the TPTWP alongside Eldric Shadowchaser as another take on Azor Ahai? Why treat them as if they are seperate people?

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EXACTLY, those are all the names listed in the World of Ice and Fire as referring to same hero and prophesy as Azor Ahai but originating in cultures outside of Asshai. So if TPTWP really does refers to Azor Ahai and Melisandre conversation with Aemon was intended to officially confirm that these figures are one in the same then why doesn't The world of Ice and fire just list the TPTWP alongside Eldric Shadowchaser as another take on Azor Ahai? Why treat them as if they are seperate people?

Good point

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I was very long of the opinion that TPTWP and AA are the same as the description of them is very similar. Lately, however I've changed my mind... now, I think that AA is the champion of R'hllor and not necessarily a hero. the actual hero will be TPTWP, whose is "the song of ice and fire", which seems to be a huge clue that he will unite ice and fire as somewhat of a peace maker.

I think that Dany is AA and Jon TPTWP.
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I very much agree with Lord Varys' points above, but I do in fact think they are two separate prophecies that have perhaps been conflated over the years so in the following I'm going to avoid the names Azor Ahai and PtwP etc.

One prophecy seems to be about bringing dragons back into the world and has to post-date the last Long Night because there were no dragons then. All the add ons, it took 3, 3 heads of the dragon point to this being a particular Targaryan prophecy. I'm not saying Dany and the dragons aren't needed this time around to fight the Others because they are - circumstances have changed and the Others have a plot to circumvent what happened last time - but this is not about a hero reborn. To me, this prophecy points directly to Dany. She fulfills all the conditions. But she is not reborn.

The other is about a hero being 'reborn', so someone the same as or similar to the major hero of the Long Night who led the fight against the Others - without dragons or we would have heard about it in Nans stories if nowhere else.

The reason they get mixed up I think is because both of them have a fire element. This is the song of ice and fire. But Dany has no 'ice' in her; that Blackwood ancestor a few generations back wouldn't qualify her.

This hero requires a straight up potent brew of strong Targaryan and Stark, replicating the hero's line of the first Long Night, which was likely proto-Valyrian Dayne and King of the First Men Dustin with some Blackwood and/or Reed thrown in from the CotF.

That's Jon. Dad is the product of a sister brother Targ pairing, mom a product of a cousin pairing that brought two strong lines of Starks back together to produce Lyanna and her brothers. Moreover, the Stark lines incorporate all the kingly lines of the First Men. These are not just any northern houses, the Starks married the daughters of the most powerful of them - their kings.

Why is this important? It's Jon's blood rather than he himself I think. Mel has the right of it if in a warped way. Jon was born to be a potent sacrifice, his blood used in a blood magic ritual to defeat the Others as happened 8000 years ago. It's of paramount importance it includes the blood of a fiery line such as the Targaryans to defeat the ice of the Others. The Daynes blood probably wouldn't work now, unless there were an anomaly, too weakened from intermarriage. It also has to include the magic of the Children in it and possibly the king of the FM's blood. Jon has it in spades.

There are also plenty of heroic things Jon has to do before the end but ultimately I think he dies in true sacrificial king fashion, the new Sword of the Morning to bring the Dawn. He might need the sword Dawn for channelling. He might need the horn. Rather horribly, it would likely be Bran -the Last Hero incarnate (another tale but not a prophecy) - who has to conduct the ritual because Bloodraven's days look numbered.

Btw, I'm not making this stuff up wholesale. The sacrificial king is a time-honoured tradition in our own world of the past. Usually it's for vegetation but that also translates to the Return of Spring and Summer. All the Gods of Westeros - Drowned God, Rhllor, Old Ones - except the 7 have traditions of human sacrifice. We've seen the power of blood magic in the world. And Melisandre has told us about the power of kings blood except it's not just in the name king, it has to be the right mix of bloodlines, and kings tend to have the most potent magical properties because they're regarded as the strongest of their people and a kings job is ultimately to protect his or her people. That's the spiritual, lawful mandate handed down in a kings line and only as little as century or so ago it was regarded as in their blood.

So that's what I make of the two prophecies. I think Rhaegar in that dream sequence was either conflating the two, or speaking of just the one, the newer one, because I think the dragons are needed this time.

Here's why:
A lot of people think of the blue rose and Lyanna as the same in some sort of romantic way but I don't think of them that way at all. They are a threat each and every time we see them. A blue winter rose growing out of chink in a wall. A hole in a WALL? With some ICY BLUE pushing through? When Rhaegar gave the crown of blue roses to Lyanna, how did Brandon react? Complimented as Robert was with what would be a normal reaction? No, Brandon reacted as if it were a threat and so it was. I won't get into that now - neither of them saw the roses in and of themselves that way - but the crown of them given to Lyanna on top of the conflict Brandon was likely having with Rhaegar - was rightly seen as a threat marking Rhaegar's intentions if Brandon didn't comply with his wishes. The blue roses are operating here in a symbolic way to the reader rather than the characters.

Blue roses and icy brides come up again and again.

But if there is ice in the Stark veins, where did it come from? The First Men and the Daynes didn't have it. I'd suggest that it didn't enter the Stark line from the Nights King. The icy bride was obviously sent from the Others to seduce the Nights Watch - find a chink in the Wall - but any baby from that line would have been killed by the Stark King not raised as one of his own.

On the other hand, babies from that union might have been raised on the other side of the Wall. Resulting in Craster and Sons eventually, but perhaps much earlier - Bael the Bard.

Thinking it through - the Others were defeated the first time by a potent bloodline that enabled the sorcery that not only spelled their ruin but protected the south from them with the ensorcelled Wall. Spells predicated on the protection of a sacred sacrificial king with the right stuff.

How do you fight that?

You would have to corrupt the bloodline.

Enter Bael the Bard, stealing away the Stark daughter and leaving a blue winter rose in her place. A threat. The baby follows, becomes the heir, and all Starks have had a bit of the Others in them since.

Every time I see or hear of a blue winter rose I think threat not flower.

So sacrificing Jon might have some unexpected side effects that not even Bloodraven is aware of. Hopefully they figure it out before they do it, perhaps now with Jon's first resurrection pending.

Jon's bloodline has been corrupted. Ice cools fire. Fire melts ice. If anyone channels the magic at the Wall to resurrect Jon will they bring the Wall down?

Enter, please, the Princess that was Promised and some much-needed dragons.

I'm embarrassed about the book length of this post. For anyone who has read through this whole thing, thank you for bearing with me. OP, my apologies for monopolizing a page of your thread.
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I didn't think the last hero ended the long night I thought the last we hear of him he is running from the ice spiders as big as hounds?

 

Yes he did. It is written in the World Book and the otehr parts of the story in the saga.

 

The wiki says he came back and with the newly formed Night's Watch helped to defeat the Others.

 

Yep.

 

The name are more relevant to the Word of Ice and Fire than Asoiaf. And they refer to the same hero anyway.

 

What makes you think that all of them refers to AA rather than all of them including AA referring to say Eldric? What makes you think that AA is the real deal whereas other ones are his variations?

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EXACTLY, those are all the names listed in the World of Ice and Fire as referring to same hero and prophesy as Azor Ahai but originating in cultures outside of Asshai. So if TPTWP really does refers to Azor Ahai and Melisandre conversation with Aemon was intended to officially confirm that these figures are one in the same then why doesn't The world of Ice and fire just list the TPTWP alongside Eldric Shadowchaser as another take on Azor Ahai? Why treat them as if they are seperate people?

 

The World Book does not mention TPTWP prophecy or make a connection between that and AA. If this connection was so blatant, Yandel would mention that as well.

                                                                                                                     

The most reasonable explanation is that George avoids revealing more stuff about TPTWP until he confirms R+L=J because that will obviously prove Jon to be “the prince that was promised”.

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