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Jon off the PoV list.


YorEmixam

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LB,

 

the fact that Bran could taste the blood and didn't taste the water, the earth, and whatever else the tree was close to suggests that tasting blood is important. If I were a greenseer and some of fellow savages would execute people by cutting their throats I as their priest/god would them dissuade from doing that in front of me unless they were already doing exactly what I want them to do - and if that's the case, then there has to be a reason why I want them to spill blood in front of the trees.

 

If it was only three stab wounds then why did Jon lose consciousness so fast? He didn't get a blow on the head as far as we know, and the dagger in his belly and the one between his shoulder blades shouldn't knock him out. The belly wound alone should kill him in any case, and nothing should him protect from infection. The dagger was buried there, suggesting that is a very deep wound, and - magic aside - ancient or medieval medicine couldn't treat bowel injuries. If his intestines are damaged, there will be inevitably be infection, and that infection will kill him.

 

We don't know who among the NW was in Bowen's camp, thus we don't know who among the NW would actually help Jon Snow at this point. Wun Wun is close, but he is facing his own problems in the aftermath of his murder of Ser Patrek (which, I presume, was caused by Ser Patrek's stupid notion that he could enter the tower and claim Val after Selyse had given him her hand), and there is no reason to assume that he would suddenly come to Jon's defense if he himself is attacked, right? And one assumes that Selyse's guys and others hating the night might jump on the chance of ridding themselves if they get the opportunity.

 

This scene is strangely reminiscent of Caesar's murder, and Bowen Marsh is clearly a well-intended Brutus, not an evil murderer. The deed being done 'for the Watch' suggests that they intend everyone to see and know what they have done, and one assumes that the policy of the aftermath will be that they saved the poor guy from himself so that he did not become an oathbreaker (again). In light of the fact that Jon Snow is the one who kept his own fragile alliances together seeing him dying should cause everyone to think for himself again, and I really can't see why any friend of his would now put his efforts on saving a dying man or healing/resurrecting him rather than avenging him. Not to mention that nobody would be able to do that besides Melisandre, and whether she wants to do it is something we don't know yet.

 

My guess is that the possibility of resurrecting Jon Snow will only become a later idea - after Borroq and Mel have realized that his spirit is still alive in Ghost. If there is a funeral for Jon then Mel could also quite accidentally bring his body back to life if she gives him the kiss. Considering how important Jon seemed to have been for her one assumes that she would want to give him a R'hlloric funeral just as she had given Alys and Sigorn a R'hlloric wedding. Beric and Cat's spirits have been restored or brought back to life by this spell, but Jon's spirit might be save from the spell's side effects in Ghost, so the difficulty then would be reunite his body and spirit which could be rather difficult.

 

The idea that this whole episode is just the same as Ned or Tyrion being knocked out in AGoT and ACoK or ADwD makes little sense to me. You do not effectively kill a character and then don't kill him. This wasn't Brienne not getting hanged in the last moment or Davos not drowning in the Blackwater, this was a character that got stabbed to death by multiple attackers. We have to ask ourselves why George would include that episode in the first place? If there are going to be no lasting effects, if this is just a filler then why the hell not have getting hit on the head or falling down the steps so that he is for a week or longer presumed to be dead?

 

Not to mention that the whole assassination angle will have severe repercussions even if Jon would be back alive the very next day. The NW elite has turned against him, and in the wake of that everything he has tried to build may be lost. The chances that wildlings and NW will now continue their alliance against the Others are very small if you ask me.

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I have yet to see anyone substantiate the claim that the vision Bran saw of a man being killed in the weirwood grove was a sacrifice.  If there is text somewhere to support this, please post it.

 

Until such time as someone presents a reasonable argument (with text) to support the "sacrifice theory" I will continue in the belief that it was a standard northern Bronze Age execution, done in a weirwood because he gets a final confession and supposedly a man can't lie in front of a heart tree.

 

 Ser Bartimus had no interest in the world outside, or indeed anything that had happened since he lost his leg to a riderless horse and a maester’s saw. He had come to love the Wolf’s Den, however, and liked nothing more than to talk about its long and bloody history. The Den was much older than White Harbor, the knight told Davos. It had been raised by King Jon Stark to defend the mouth of the White Knife against raiders from the sea. Many a younger son of the King in the North had made his seat there, many a brother, many an uncle, many a cousin. Some passed the castle to their own sons and grandsons, and offshoot branches of House Stark had arisen; the Greystarks had lasted the longest, holding the Wolf’s Den for five centuries, until they presumed to join the Dreadfort in rebellion against the Starks of Winterfell.

 

After their fall, the castle had passed through many other hands. House Flint held it for a century, House Locke for almost two. Slates, Longs, Holts, and Ashwoods had held sway here, charged by Winterfell to keep the river safe. Reavers from the Three Sisters took the castle once, making it their toehold in the north. During the wars between Winterfell and the Vale, it was besieged by Osgood Arryn, the Old Falcon, and burned by his son, the one remembered as the Talon. When old King Edrick Stark had grown too feeble to defend his realm, the Wolf’s Den was captured by slavers from the Stepstones. They would brand their captives with hot irons and break them to the whip before shipping them off across the sea, and these same black stone walls bore witness.

 

“Then a long cruel winter fell,” said Ser Bartimus. “The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard’s great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf’s Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he’d found chained up in the dungeons. It’s said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don’t know winter, and winter don’t know them.”

Davos could not argue with the truth of that. From what he had seen at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, he did not care to know winter either. “What gods do you keep?” he asked the one-legged knight.

“The old ones.” When Ser Bartimus grinned, he looked just like a skull. “Me and mine were here before the Manderlys. Like as not, my own forebears strung those entrails through the tree.”

“I never knew that northmen made blood sacrifice to their heart trees.”

“There’s much and more you southrons do not know about the north,” Ser Bartimus replied.

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So Theon could be offered or fed to a weirwood but in exchange for what? Possibly Bran could have the power to put Jon's spirit back in his body after "tasting the blood"? Blood seems to be the most important thing here. Heres a quote about the paste he ate that was supposed to make him stronger:

"Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated."
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If Theon is sacrificed to the tree, then I expect this will have an immediate effect on the outcome of the coming battle between Stannis and the Boltons. We have to keep in mind that this is planned to happen prior to the battle. Bran has every interest to ensure Stannis' victory considering that he most likely would much rather work with him and the Northmen allied to him than with Roose's guys. Now, Asha gives us a hint what might happen back in her first ADwD chapter. She remembers tales that the First Men greenseers supposedly could cause trees marching against/attacking their enemies. A blood sacrifice could provide Bran with sufficient strength to actually intervene on Stannis' side in the coming battle. Either by having trees attack or by using his control over animals - swarms of ravens attacking the enemy, or even overtaking their horse neutralizing the cavalry, stuff like that.

 

But then, we don't even know yet whether Bran actually wants to kill Theon. How are his feelings towards him? That is not clear.

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As to the OP, I think it is glaringly obvious that Jon will warg into Ghost, and that we will get one or two "Ghost" POVs. (Mel had the man-wolf-man vision, and her visions are always accurate, although she often misinterprets them.) This would be a fine chance for Jon/Ghost to have a Bran-like dream experience guided by Bloodraven.

 

A "Death and Ressurection" is a typical element of the Hero's Jouney, of course, so we can expect Jon to be resurrected. The idea that "only death can pay for life" is also well established, so we can expect a sacrifice. But if that is going to happen, it is almost certainly going to be part of an intentional ritual. Just any old death at any old place won't work. In fact, it would seem likely that Jon's body, Ghost, the practitioner, and the victim will have to be brought together in a special, magical place in order to pull this off. This would also make dramatic sense, since Jon's resurrection will be a, or in fact THE, key turning point in the whole saga.

 

Thus, I don't expect that Theon being executed by Stannis on the lake island would work for a Jon resurrection. In fact, I suspect Bran will intervene via raven to stop Stannis, with assistance from the clansmen who know Bran is alive. I'm on record as predicting that Jon will be resurrected (in Clue format) -

 

by Bran

in the Winterfell godswood

by sacrificing Roose Bolton. (Theon would be a possible alternative, but my nonexistent money is on Roose.)

 

I also expect that this will all be wound up by the midpoint of TWoW. After all, once Jon is resurrected he will still have lots of stuff to do.

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The reason why Jon never  felt the fourth knife could be because he had already warged into Ghost, that's how I see it.

 

As for the stabbings that connected, I read a passage in Dunk & Egg that mentions the dangers about a knife between the shoulder blades. 

 

Did he die? I don't know. Will he come back? He has to. I mean, he's one of the story's main pieces, a very well build and developed character that still has a big part to play. Martin likes (a bit too much lol) killing his characters off but I just think he wouldn't have had spent so much time building Jon's arch to leave it unfinished like that. Jon, still has to learn about his parents to say the least.

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I don't believe Jon will stay dead, but I have to admit this would actually be a major twist that could become very interesting if it happened.

 

The fact that Jon feels 'only the cold' at the end suggests that he didn't leave his body yet unless we assume that Ghost is in an ice cell for some reason. If he is still chained somewhere he would feel more than just the cold. Jon is still too untrained to skinchange at will. I expect him to wake up inside Ghost, but he probably didn't deliberately transferred himself there.

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I don't believe Jon will stay dead, but I have to admit this would actually be a major twist that could become very interesting if it happened.

 

The fact that Jon feels 'only the cold' at the end suggests that he didn't leave his body yet unless we assume that Ghost is in an ice cell for some reason. If he is still chained somewhere he would feel more than just the cold. Jon is still too untrained to skinchange at will. I expect him to wake up inside Ghost, but he probably didn't deliberately transferred himself there.

 

Varamyr's last sensation as a man before dying and beginning his second life was feeling cold. Jon's last sensation is feeling cold.

 

There's no need to assume that Ghost must have been cold when the author has put in the very same book, in the prologue which are always used to make some point or introduce some important element to the plot, that a skinchanger's last feeling is coldness. The very fact that Jon felt cold actually is completely suggestive that he did leave his body.

 

 

That was his last thought as a man.
True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. Half the world was dark. One Eye, he knew. He bayed, and Sly and Stalker gave echo.
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Even although I think Jon is dying and will die, I doubt that those three daggers killed him that quickly. That is, unless the one between the shoulder blades actually got through to his heart or ruptured the aorta. To me, it sounds like he fell into the snow and sort of continuously felt the cold, you know, the way being knocked unconscious is often described 'and then there was blackness' or something like that.

 

But I could be wrong there, I have no problem with the assumption that he died since I am sure he is not going to survive the assassination. 

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Even although I think Jon is dying and will die, I doubt that those three daggers killed him that quickly. That is, unless the one between the shoulder blades actually got through to his heart or ruptured the aorta. To me, it sounds like he fell into the snow and sort of continuously felt the cold, you know, the way being knocked unconscious is often described 'and then there was blackness' or something like that.

 

But I could be wrong there, I have no problem with the assumption that he died since I am sure he is not going to survive the assassination. 

 

I think it would be fairly bad writing if he did just survive the event on his own. IMO whether Jon is dead or just injured here, there's no reason to assume that the men wouldn't finish him off. It's in their best interests to ensure that he's dead so I see no reason why they wouldn't just keep stabbing him till he was for sure dead. Especially if he just lost consciousness and there's now nothing stopping them from stabbing him as many times as they want or just beheading him.

 

The idea that they're just going to stab him a few times and then throw his dying body in an ice cell or leave him there makes no sense to me. They'd finish the job if it wasn't already finished.

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Sure. But since the chapter ended we can't know for sure what happened immediately afterwards. And the fact that we don't know that is one of the main reasons why I assume don't come up with theories what's going to happen now. It all depends on what Bowen, the wildling chieftains, Melisandre and Selyse, and Jon's loyal NW (if he has any/much left in CB) are going to do now. You cannot make a good educated guess that way. However, I'm inclined to believe that Borroq will play a role in determining that Jon's spirit has survived in Ghost for the time being. In fact, the whole 'a skinchanger always recognizes another skinchanger' thing most likely was only introduced for that purpose.

 

How or when he is going to be resurrected is another matter, as is the question whether this will become a top priority in the near future. If there is a war fought in CB now then this won't be priority at all, and thereafter it will depend on who prevails in the end. The kiss of life of the Red Priests is the obvious magical tool to bring his body back to life, and one could easily see Mel administering it as part of the funeral if her faction ends up on top of things, accidentally reviving the body in the process. The difficulty would then be to unite body and spirit.

 

Some people consider blood magic and sacrifice as a possible way but despite the 'only death can pay for life' thing we have as of yet never seen a sorcerer resurrecting somebody with blood magic. Drogo was healed by Mirri Maz Duur, not resurrected, and Dany's dragon eggs weren't completely dead either, if her dragon dreams and feelings towards the eggs are any indication. Not to mention that one would expect that sorcerer would much more often be paid to administer spell to bring resurrect powerful people that have been murdered - people for whom a slave's life is essentially nothing. Yet nothing of this sort is mentioned as having happened historically which makes me inclined to believe that we won't get this type of thing there.

 

My personal guess is that kiss of life also doesn't work on anyone but only on people with Targaryen blood. The theory is that the Dondarrions actually are Targaryen descendants through one of the daughters of Garmund Hightower by Rhaena Targaryen, and that it was Thoros' fire magic reacting to Beric's dragon blood that brought him back. Beric then later passed the 'working spell matrix' on to Catelyn, dying in the process. If there is nothing special about Thoros' magic then it is really strange that he could only bring back Beric but none of the other dead outlaws.

 

But I agree completely with you that we wouldn't have gotten a nice and clean assassination if he wasn't supposed to be physically dead. His spirit lives on, but the body is done. Even if he had been miraculously saved - it is theoretically possible that some people show up and kill all the assassins or drive them away (some people seem to be hoping Wun Wun is going to do that, but I don't think/see no reason why he would care - especially since he is attacked himself) - both the shoulder blade injury and the belly dagger should prove to be fatal in time. Ancient and medieval medicine couldn't treat injuries to the guts/intestines, and a dagger buried in that region should have caused a lot of damage there. Even if the blood loss could be stopped by moving him into an ice cell there would still be mortal infection in the stomach and/or internal bleeding. Cooling the body down to freezing temperatures would kill him, too, of course.

 

Still, it might be that his corpse is going to stored/thrown into an ice cell, possibly to the other corpses he is storing there already (they have been introduced for a reason, too). And then could lead to another 'resurrection option', namely Jon's body being infected with the wight curse, and rising to a 'new life' with pale blue eyes. We know from Coldhands - who may actually be a former skinchanger reclaiming his body after he had become a wight - that there are 'independent wights' not under the control of the Others. There has to be a story/reason for that concept, too. Sure, Jon would no longer be alive or the same guy in that scenario - even less so than if his body would be resurrected by the fire spell - but we have to ask ourselves why the author would want to kill and resurrect him in the first place? Most likely to trigger some fundamental change, a change that might also be connected to the revelation of his true heritage (possible there with the fire spell stuff), but nevertheless a change on many other levels, too. You do not die in this series and come back unchanged. Even if his body did not die, he'd have to pay a rather steep life-altering price to be restored to a semblance of his former self. Victarion just had a mortified arm - look how magic 'cured' that little problem...

 

A completely different option would be if Jon simply used his skinchanging abilities to eventually usurp another body, possibly some wight or weak-willed human. Since George has established spirits as real entities encompassing everything a person is Jon doesn't have to be in Jon's body to remain who and what he is. If such a scenario is followed either with him or Bran it would be really interesting to see him take over a female body...

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LB,

 

the fact that Bran could taste the blood and didn't taste the water, the earth, and whatever else the tree was close to suggests that tasting blood is important. If I were a greenseer and some of fellow savages would execute people by cutting their throats I as their priest/god would them dissuade from doing that in front of me unless they were already doing exactly what I want them to do - and if that's the case, then there has to be a reason why I want them to spill blood in front of the trees.

 

If it was only three stab wounds then why did Jon lose consciousness so fast? He didn't get a blow on the head as far as we know, and the dagger in his belly and the one between his shoulder blades shouldn't knock him out. The belly wound alone should kill him in any case, and nothing should him protect from infection. The dagger was buried there, suggesting that is a very deep wound, and - magic aside - ancient or medieval medicine couldn't treat bowel injuries. If his intestines are damaged, there will be inevitably be infection, and that infection will kill him.

 

We don't know who among the NW was in Bowen's camp, thus we don't know who among the NW would actually help Jon Snow at this point. Wun Wun is close, but he is facing his own problems in the aftermath of his murder of Ser Patrek (which, I presume, was caused by Ser Patrek's stupid notion that he could enter the tower and claim Val after Selyse had given him her hand), and there is no reason to assume that he would suddenly come to Jon's defense if he himself is attacked, right? And one assumes that Selyse's guys and others hating the night might jump on the chance of ridding themselves if they get the opportunity.

 

This scene is strangely reminiscent of Caesar's murder, and Bowen Marsh is clearly a well-intended Brutus, not an evil murderer. The deed being done 'for the Watch' suggests that they intend everyone to see and know what they have done, and one assumes that the policy of the aftermath will be that they saved the poor guy from himself so that he did not become an oathbreaker (again). In light of the fact that Jon Snow is the one who kept his own fragile alliances together seeing him dying should cause everyone to think for himself again, and I really can't see why any friend of his would now put his efforts on saving a dying man or healing/resurrecting him rather than avenging him. Not to mention that nobody would be able to do that besides Melisandre, and whether she wants to do it is something we don't know yet.

 

My guess is that the possibility of resurrecting Jon Snow will only become a later idea - after Borroq and Mel have realized that his spirit is still alive in Ghost. If there is a funeral for Jon then Mel could also quite accidentally bring his body back to life if she gives him the kiss. Considering how important Jon seemed to have been for her one assumes that she would want to give him a R'hlloric funeral just as she had given Alys and Sigorn a R'hlloric wedding. Beric and Cat's spirits have been restored or brought back to life by this spell, but Jon's spirit might be save from the spell's side effects in Ghost, so the difficulty then would be reunite his body and spirit which could be rather difficult.

 

The idea that this whole episode is just the same as Ned or Tyrion being knocked out in AGoT and ACoK or ADwD makes little sense to me. You do not effectively kill a character and then don't kill him. This wasn't Brienne not getting hanged in the last moment or Davos not drowning in the Blackwater, this was a character that got stabbed to death by multiple attackers. We have to ask ourselves why George would include that episode in the first place? If there are going to be no lasting effects, if this is just a filler then why the hell not have getting hit on the head or falling down the steps so that he is for a week or longer presumed to be dead?

 

Not to mention that the whole assassination angle will have severe repercussions even if Jon would be back alive the very next day. The NW elite has turned against him, and in the wake of that everything he has tried to build may be lost. The chances that wildlings and NW will now continue their alliance against the Others are very small if you ask me.

Never occurred to you that a kid might be too shocked by what he was seeing to think to intervene?  Or that even if he'd tried it wouldn't have worked?  The man was wearing all black, which means there's a very good chance he was a Night's Watch deserter.  In Bran's mind he would deserve death.

 

If three stab wounds aren't bad enough to make someone pass out, you think a fourth one is somehow the magic number?  My dad fainted once from a snapped tendon.  You don't need massive blood loss or mortal wounds for it to happen.

 

I already mentioned the risk of infection being his greatest threat.  The belly wound itself is not necessarily fatal.  If it infects, it could be.  If they hit anything important it could be.  But we don't know that that is the case.  

 

My ideas about who might or might not come to Jon's aid are as good as yours.  We don't know that anyone is available, willing, and nearby, but neither do we know that no one is available, willing, and nearby.  

 

His friends might not want to save him?  What?  Seriously, that makes no sense.  As long as he isn't dead yet, there's a chance.  Would some figure there's no point, yeah maybe, but someone will no doubt try and help, or beg Mel to do so.  This one is a no-brainer.  

 

It's not just Ned and Tyrion.  There's a whole list of people who were supposedly dead in their own POV but turned out not to be.  All the actual deaths we've seen in regular chapters have been in someone else's POV, not the supposedly dead character's.  The only exception to this is Cat, and she didn't stay dead so I'm not even sure that counts.  Arya took an axe to the back of the head.  She's alive.  Sandor was left dying of infection.  He's alive and is working as a gravedigger. Davos not only didn't drown but is going to pick up another not dead character on Skagos.

 

I'm not saying that Jon can't or won't die.  I'm just saying he's not dead yet and wouldn't absolutely have to die to make the story work.

 

I also never said there wouldn't be lasting consequences.  Whether Jon is alive or dead, the Night's Watch is going to be ripped apart by this, and the Wall may come down as a result (per Old Nan).  Kindly cease responding to what you think I meant and go with what I actually said instead.

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I think that Jon will return as a PoV. Even if he does die and is resurrected, I don't see the 'unJon' scenario. Martin has said that Jon will eventually find out about his parentage and has also said that he always agreed with Willaim Faulkner that the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about. The revelation needs to have an emotional impact on Jon and the 'unJon' scenario does not achieve that.

This

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I think it would be awesome, I like the idea of making his motivations mysterious to the reader. Maybe have a POV or two by him in the very last book, if appropriate, but I like the idea of Jon being like Mel was in the earlier books - a cypher.

Kind of this because Jon as a character doesn't matter to me, just his relevance to the plot and wrt the characters I like who like him. So I wouldn't be mad to not have access to his inner thoughts. Though I would be intrigued to see what goes on in the head of someone who got brought back or seeing the internal result of being in Ghost for so long.
I guess if his personality changes and gets more interesting then I would be disappointed by the POV loss. But as things stand right now, I am more than ok with the idea.
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Jon comes back after some time as Ghost but gets in trouble with the rest of the Watch when he's caught in the kennels trying to mate with a dog.

Ooh, maybe the original plot outline will be alluded to when Jon mates with Ramsay's dog that he named after Arya.

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