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Jon off the PoV list.


YorEmixam

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Well, the fact that Bran can taste the blood of the guy who is killed is a pretty strong sign that this was a blood sacrifice. 

 

I saw the end of the Jon chapter always as a sign that he is dead. He received four stab wounds he actually felt of which at least two could prove fatal (the one between the shoulder blades and Bowen stabbing him in the belly) but those weren't the only ones. There is no reason to think that they didn't finish their work after Jon had lost consciousness. However unplanned the assassination was, one assumes they still chose a sight were enough of their cabal were close-by to ensure that he dies.

 

The chapter mentions no one in Jon's vicinity we could trust to stop them. Not to mention that we have no clue who in the NW is supporting Bowen in this.

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If Jon returns, I think it would be at the end of WoW. Because if we see a Jon's POV at the very beginning of  the index and then nothing more, it will be very suspicious.

 

It could be like Davos' in ADWD. He had just a few POVS, and we didn't know if he was going to have his head cut or not.

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I think we will get a couple Chapters called Ghost. Then we might get a Chapter called "The Prince Who Was Promised", which will deal with the revelation of Jon's parentage and his ultimate resurrection. That might even end TWOW.

After that we will go back to getting Jon.
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I'm a firm believer that he is not dead, in fact I'd like to say his position is the same as brans when he had his fall/push in agot.
As to his resurrection or awakening as I'd prefer (yes even I notice I'm in complete denial) I think the interesting bit will be where he's positioned. If melisandre believes that Snow is AAR then perhaps she gets he queensmen to guard him while he heals him.

Or you know first chapter at the wAll is Mel watching snows body be burnt :(
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You think someone will be sacrificed? Who?

 

 

But if Theon is going to feed the tree, who will sacrifice him? Weirwood human sacrifice seems like it may need some requirements (perhaps the bronze sickle?)

 

There was something about that on Theon's released chapter, wasn't it? Asha told Stannis to not kill Theon but to offer him to the Old Gods, the way the Starks would've done/liked it. 

I also read a theory here a while ago when this chapter came out that there was some sort of bronze dagger involved? I think I have it on my notes, I'll look for it.

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There was something about that on Theon's released chapter, wasn't it? Asha told Stannis to not kill Theon but to offer him to the Old Gods, the way the Starks would've done/liked it. 

I also read a theory here a while ago when this chapter came out that there was some sort of bronze dagger involved? I think I have it on my notes, I'll look for it.

She said it in a strange tone of voice, too.  I think she may have been under control of Bloodraven or Bran at that point.

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I'm pretty "Jon" won't have a POV in TWOW, his "resurrection" isn't going to be as quick as people expect it to be. He'll be in those ice cells for a while. However, after he wargs into Ghost we'll see POVs from the wolf perspective. And there's so much GRRM can do with that, Ghost can go north, maybe find out what happens at hardhome, go the "capital city" of the others, and we could find out who the others are and what they want through Ghost because right now there aren't any other realistic POV's except for Bran. I also think Ghost will somehow encounter Benjen, dead or alive and we'll find out what happens to him. 

 

When will Jon come back? I'm almost certain that the final chapter in TWOW will be a Mel/ Sam/Bran POV where Jon gets fully resurrected. 

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I think that Jon will return as a PoV. Even if he does die and is resurrected, I don't see the 'unJon' scenario. Martin has said that Jon will eventually find out about his parentage and has also said that he always agreed with Willaim Faulkner that the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about. The revelation needs to have an emotional impact on Jon and the 'unJon' scenario does not achieve that.

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Well, the fact that Bran can taste the blood of the guy who is killed is a pretty strong sign that this was a blood sacrifice. 

 

I saw the end of the Jon chapter always as a sign that he is dead. He received four stab wounds he actually felt of which at least two could prove fatal (the one between the shoulder blades and Bowen stabbing him in the belly) but those weren't the only ones. There is no reason to think that they didn't finish their work after Jon had lost consciousness. However unplanned the assassination was, one assumes they still chose a sight were enough of their cabal were close-by to ensure that he dies.

 

The chapter mentions no one in Jon's vicinity we could trust to stop them. Not to mention that we have no clue who in the NW is supporting Bowen in this.

The fact that Bran can taste the blood of the guy is a pretty strong sign that the tree roots soaked up the blood.  That doesn't make it a sacrifice, as that would have occurred with an execution as well.

 

"Could" prove fatal.  But none of them necessarily will.  The risks are blood loss and infection. He felt three stab wounds.  "He never felt the fourth knife."  What evidence is there that those were not the only stabs?  There's no reason to think they did continue after he lost consciousness.

 

One can assume whatever one wants, but they were at least in sight of Wun Wun and the chaos surrounding him, which means that anybody over that way could have seen what was going on.  If the fourth knife wasn't felt because it didn't go in (as I've seen suggested before) then the reason it didn't go in was likely that the assassination was interrupted. And there's always the possibility that someone *cough, Mel, Cough* let Ghost out and he was racing toward them unnoticed.

 

Bowen may not be all that bright, but if you were going to assassinate your Lord Commander, wouldn't you want to keep it secret from as many people as possible?  That reduces the chances that anyone in the group gets cold feet and rats out the rest.  Seems like the four stabbers and maybe a lookout or two.  Any more than that and the odds of failure go way up.  In fact it's possible that when the stabbing began, part of the group changed their minds and decided to try and stop it before it was too late.

 

We'll have to wait for TWoW to find out.  So until that book says he's dead, he's alive.  Still better than Benjen though...that poor guy has been missing for 19 years.

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But if Theon is going to feed the tree, who will sacrifice him? Weirwood human sacrifice seems like it may need some requirements (perhaps the bronze sickle?)

No one will sacrifice him. 

 

TWOW spoilers[spoiler]

The memory left Theon writhing in his chains. "Let me down," he pleaded. "Just for a little while, then you can hang me up again." Stannis Baratheon looked up at him, but did not answer. "Tree," a raven cried. "Tree, tree, tree."

[...]

"Then do the deed yourself, Your Grace." The chill in Asha's voice made Theon shiver in his chains. "Take him out across the lake to the islet where the weirwood grows, and strike his head off with that sorcerous sword you bear. That is how Eddard Stark would have done it. Theon slew Lord Eddard's sons. Give him to Lord Eddard's gods. The old gods of the north. Give him to the tree." And suddenly there came a wild thumping, as the maester's ravens hopped and flapped inside their cages, their black feathers flying as they beat against the bars with loud and raucous caws. "The tree," one squawked, "the tree, the tree," whilst the second screamed only, "Theon, Theon, Theon." Theon Greyjoy smiled. They know my name, he thought.

 

 

 

[/spoiler]He will be executed and the Old Gods will use this life to bring Jon back.

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Jon could be dead for good, no resurrection, and have completed his role in the series.  He's actually accomplished a lot, if Daenerys died now people would say "What was the point?" but we don't know GRRM's plans for Jon's role in the series.  Jon united the Watch and the Wildlings, and forged alliances that are totally reshaping the political environment of the North.  He's mobilized the Watch towards serving their true purpose.  He discovered the importance of dragonglass in fighting the Others.  He earned the respect of a lot of very disparate groups of people, from Lannisters to Thenns.  On top of all that, he has personal connections to several important characters who survive, and his death will surely be a catalyst for many more radical changes.  He is loved by a deadly assassin who is apparently very important to the plot and who will certainly want to avenge his death.

It would be somewhat surprising, and a subversion of tropes if the mystery of his birth is never revealed, but Ned's death came as a surprise yet in hindsight his dying was a very important part of the story and he had already served his role in the plot.  People will speculate as to what might have happened if Jon made different choices and was not assassinated, but after people are used to the idea that Jon is dead, most will see those alternative scenarios as too cliche for this book series.  Maybe GRRM will leave things ambiguous - for instance, Ghost might start following Melisandre around and become her constant companion (he seems to like her already).  This could leave open speculation that part of Jon is living a second life within Ghost, but if it is never confirmed it will also always be a possibility that Ghost is just a smart animal and possibly under the magic control of Melisandre.  I would love that.

 

Besides, we're overdue for a dead POV character.  Who was the last major POV character to die and stay dead?  Since Catelyn came back, and nobody thinks of Arys Oakheart or Quentyn as major characters (and I don't think the burned corpse is Quentyn, myself), it's Ned Stark.  We knew GRRM would kill again.

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