fionwe1987 Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 My thoughts on the 5 wizards is that each of them was given a mission which coincided with their pasts. They were explicitly not. Allatar (one of the Blue wizards), Curumo (Saruman), and Olorin (Gandalf) were given the same mission: go help the people of Middle Earth, but do NOT show your full powers, and do not seek power over the people, Elf, Dwarf, Man or Hobbit. Gandalf was reluctant to go, saying he was afraid of the temptation of Sauron's power, but Manwe insisted that that was an even better reason for him to go. Rhadagast was tacked on to Saruman by Yavanna, and he couldn't refuse the spouse of his Valar, Aule. Allatar took Pallando as a "friend", which makes the least sense of all. The proscriptions held firm for all of them, though. Rhadagast, however, may have had an alternate purpose from Yavanna. Radagast was supposed to prepare nature for the coming storm- that meant he would spend most of his time with nature. He likely befriended the ents. He worked to restore nature where it had been previously destroyed. Where did you get this from? His purpose is never even hinted at! The blue wizards went east- we know this. I think they were tasked with uniting the eastern tribes. It's not too crazy to think that Gandalf went to check up on them at some point, but given the 1500 years he had to do his own task it seems kind crazy to me to think he spent much of that time in the east. Tolkien never made up his mind on the Blues. In some versions, they do do some good, but are killed by Saruman (who travelled extensively in the East). In others, they form cults, leading men to follow them, and thus falling from their purpose. As for Gandalf, he explicitly says he doesn't go to the East: 'Mithrandir we called him in elf-fashion,' said Faramir, 'and he was content. Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Writhen Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 I don't even remember my Tolkien God Lore™. I actually had 10 of the 12 volumes of the History of Middle Earth series when they came out but I let them go :crying: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 I went through half of this, then stopped. Too much that made no sense. The entire wall of text doesn't address that Gandalf spent the 18 years between Bolbo's departure and his return to the Shire hunting Gollum. He's the reason Aragorn found Gollum, and they knew the full history of the ring, and that Sauron knew the name Baggins. Being quite non-idiotic, Gandalf correctly prioritized not letting Sauron find out about the One Ring (if that is what it was), rather than satisfying his own curiosity first. Could he have had the time to take a trip to Gondor? Possibly. And there is, in fact, no hint that he did not. Faramir certainly met him many times, and if the last time he met Gandalf was 18 years ago (when Faramir was 17), nothing in the books suggests it. Gandalf may simply have not had time to do a thorough enough search in those times, and could afford that time only once he knew Golloum was already captured. As for the events in the Hobbit, the explanation is in the Unfinished Tales. As Gandalf tells the Hobbits, he was very worried that the rising power in Dol Guldur would claim the Dragon, and then Smaug would rage over the North, and destroy Rivendell. So he set in motion a two pronged attack. He sent a sneak team to fight Smaug, while he himself pushed the White Council to send Sauron far from Dol Guldur. As for the rest, a lot of this seems to expect Gandalf to just take over. Any overtly heroic act from him would make men worship him, and that was something explicitly forbidden. Nevertheless, he certainly didn't sit on his ass. If he is known for bringing bad news, that implies he has given bad news to the Rohirrim many times. And a large number of Gondorians recognize him on sight, again hardly possible if he just visited a few times. Gandalf's duty was to aid and give hope to the people. Not by directly saving them, but by evoking the best of their abilities. This, he seems to have largely done. From Faramir to Aragorn to Billbo, the very best of the men and Hobbits of the world sought wisdom and comfort from him. His mandate changed after death, which is why you see him be more active. As for his death, he obviously wouldn't have brought a Balrog to Lothlorien, which was the only bulwark against an invasion from Dol Guldur to Gondor. We know that even in the First Age, killing a Balrog was a hugely difficult task for even the mightiest of Elves. Glorfindel died fighting one. As did Ecthelion. Feanor fought five of them, but he too lost his life. Any attack by the Balrog on Lothlorien would have only ended if Galadriel herself came out to fight it, and then she would have been either severely weakened or killed, leaving nothing in the way of the Nazgul led invasion from Dol Guldur. This is fucking great post :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl the climber Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 You know Gandalf wasn't in the whole thing for personal glory, so I think he had a role in a lot of things that happened in the third age but which are not stated or recorded. How do we know that he did not play a part in Eorl the Young showing up just in time for an example. The men of Gondor and Rohan agree that he has a habit of showing up when things look dark, he's been around for a couple of thousand years, I don't think he just developed a sudden interest in men at the end of the third age. A lot of people in Rohan seemed to mistrust him but that was because he was seen as being akin to Sauraman but the folks in Gondor treated him with reverence. Even though Denethor thought Gandalf was plotting to supplant him, he had to give Gandalf almost unfettered acsess to his person. Its not clear why this was, Faramir saw him as a lore master, but he thought he was much more in truth without really giving any evidence for it. Denethor might have suspected his true nature partially because he had looked in the stone. Basicly the average person saw him as this old guy who had been showing up whenever there was trouble for as long as anyone could remember, Pippin commented on this at one point thinking it was odd that it had never occured to him before but his mind might have been expanded by looking into the stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Ninefingers, My tl;dr version is that he's a major character in an overrated series of books. That's certainly an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyphillip Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 I really liked it when he showed Harry how to look into the pensieve... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnar of Skagos Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 But... he has a staff... and a cloak... and magic... and a beard.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Gandalf has been helping the race of men for centuries. If that's not cause for respect, I don't know what is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinDonner Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, dude. They are subtle etc etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 I put on my wizard robe and.hat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray the Enforcer Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 I put on my wizard robe and.hat. Lvl. 8 chicken of the Infinite or GTFO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disturber of Peace Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Remember what Bilbo used to say. "It is a dangerous bussiness, Frodo, going to the internet. You dive into the web and if you don't keep your fingers there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." Anyways, as some people here already kind of said, trying to impress elves and men and getting them into fold by showing off great power was deemed by the Valar to be a mistake of the past. Therefore the instructions given to the Istari. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Woo. Some people have an astounding amount of time to fill in with nothing. It's like all those counter-factual college dorm room discussions in which somebody keeps insisting that if this happened, then this might happened, and then if that thing that hadn't happened twice over already happened, then maybe this could have happened just like this, and then this would have happened and, etc. etc. etc., while in history none of the ifs ever happened, so what's the point, since Lee did lose the Battle of Gettysburg and Grant did take Vicksburg. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disturber of Peace Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Woo. Some people have an astounding amount of time to fill in with nothing. It's like all those counter-factual college dorm room discussions in which somebody keeps insisting that if this happened, then this might happened, and then if that thing that hadn't happened twice over already happened, then maybe this could have happened just like this, and then this would have happened and, etc. etc. etc., while in history none of the ifs ever happened, so what's the point, since Lee did lose the Battle of Gettysburg and Grant did take Vicksburg. :cheers: So you also blame Gandalf for no interventions during the american civil war? Enough is enough. One wizard can only do so much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Writhen Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Hey he had to save Middle-Earth, not Earth. He always comes back™... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disturber of Peace Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Hey he had to save Middle-Earth, not Earth. He always comes back... Cool now you blame him for ISIS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Tell me why; I don't like Gandalf... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proudfeet Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Erm... I've read the books multiple times, quote directly from them multiple times, and dig deep into the appendicies... Mm, I skimmed but didn't Gondor light the beacons when Gandalf was bringing Pippin to Gondor in the book? Hard to order Denethor to do anything from so far out. He did have the Palantir, but I don't recall him using it. I know that you are trying to substantiate your arguments, but your hypotheticals are a little too excessive and detract from your original point. As for your arguments, you seem to assume that Gandalf was sitting on his hands doing nothing and want Gandalf to act as King Gandalf instead? I'd like to point out that travel takes a long time and could be difficult, even with Shadowfax that he didn't have until the end, and that Gandalf had no actual power(authority), he was just a powerful individual that was respected. I think he was also forbidden to hold power over others, but I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Dragonmag, But after that his arrogance came back out when he reached Gondor. He tried to order the Steward of Gondor to light the beacons- he was not requesting the action. Proudfeet is right. While Gandalf is riding for Minas Tirith with Pippin he sees that the becons are already lit. Further, Denethor had dispatched messagers to Edoras with the "Red Arrow" requesting aid in Gondor's defense. Movie Denethor was the carpet chewing madman who refused to send for aid not book Denethor who was quite competent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Movie Denethor was the carpet chewing madman who refused to send for aid not book Denethor who was quite competent. One of the worst changes in the movies. Book Denethor dislikes Gandalf for his meddling, but is not foolish enough to dismiss his aid. And he is not at all a raving lunatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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