Fool's Quest

[HexMachina]

Gigei,

I didn't get that you were talking about opinions within the book. But I suppose the spoiled/selfish opinion (by Fitz at least) comes because they are accustomed to living much more simply and frugally at Withywoods. Not that they live on the breadline or anything, but they aren't exactly rowing parties every week and feasting every night. So when Shun arrives with her materialistic ways and demanding attitidue it seems fairly natural that Fitz and Bee consider her as spoiled and selfish. I'll have a more thorough look later and try to find quotes, but I seem to recall that her attitidue is particularly noticeable when they are all at the inn before they find the Fool. Shun is a bit of a bully to Bee too, from what I remember. And I seem to recall Lant also being something of a bully to Bee in the schoolroom too.

That isn't to say that Fitz is absolved of his neglect of Bee's care. And this is an issue addressed in both Fool's Assassin and Fool's Quest. First there is Nettle and Riddle telling Fitz that if he doesn't pull his act together they will take Bee away from him. And then there is the fact that for pretty much the entire time after Bee is kidnapped Fitz broods on all his failures, both as a father and a landowner who should protect his people. He is wracked with guilt and disgust at himself for neglecting Bee. So I'm not sure it is entirely a case of double standards there, because he acknowledges that he has the same flaws too. Also, I think there might be a moment where he actually realises his hypocrisy in chastising Lant for leaving Bee.

Regarding RWC:
[spoiler] So far it's not...essential. But it will give you a better idea of what's going on with Kelsingra. You'll know who the characters are, and see things like Phron's birth and understand the physical difficulties he faces. It also explains the situation in Chalced and why Duke Ellik is as he is, although I think it is fair to say that aspect of the novels is rushed. If you didn't enjoy Liveships though (o.O is this possible?!) you will probably not like this either. [/spoiler]

[Gigei]

Uh the only other conversation they have about Shun, Chade only says "her education has been sadly neglected" and that is neglected by Chade's standards. I actually searched all the mentions of Shun's grandparents. I don't think Shun's education has been more neglected than Fitz's daughters Bee and Nettle. Regardless, Shun is just a minor character at this point. I suspect Hobb only put her in so that plotwise there is someone who can be with Bee at some crucial points.
 
[spoiler]Perseverance is there to stay in Withywoods so there is someone who can tell Fitz who took Bee. Shun is there so Fitz and Co will know what happened.[/spoiler]
 
 

Liveships boring? O.o well, hmmm you can probaly skip rain wilds then.

And o don't think it's been said but o get the idea the servants don't want dragons in the world because whatever it is they've been up to is going to piss the dragons off.

Yeah, Liveships was boring for me. I do like the parts with Paragon in it but the rest was a yawn. My brain is telling me that there was a lot of slow parts with the Satrap, Althea, and Winthrow. Hmmm, I think I was bored by all the Vivacia parts. :frown5:  I can't even remember what the point was on having Althea, she didn't even do anything except whine that Viva was supposed to be hers. It has been a while since I read it but that is what I remember now. Soem good parts but 90% of it was boring.
 
Actually, most of Hobb is boring, as I noted above I only like some of her books and even then most of the parts are boring. :unsure: Maybe because I can almost always tell where the story is going? By this time I already know Hobb is gonna tie everything up in happy ending...

I really wonder what is up with the dragons and the Servants. I think it will be interesting to find out,. I have very high hopes for a great last book.  :laugh:

Edit: so many typos.

[Gigei]

Gigei,

I didn't get that you were talking about opinions within the book.

Yeah, it didn't come off too well when I posted but I was talking about how Fitz/Bee will be giving a ridiculously exaggerated "reading" of someone's actions which make it out that some trivial stuff is so bad when it really depends on how you look at it. To clarify, this is not *bad*, it's just what POVs are like.

 

It adds a whole nother level to re-reading for me. Like, another example would be Bee complaining about Shun's dress which apparently has a lot of cleavage. I'm guessing Molly never dressed like that. She was like 50? or so when Bee was born. Nevertheless, I really doubt that Shun's dress was really a big deal.  :blushing:
 

her attitidue is particularly noticeable when they are all at the inn before they find the Fool

Yes! She was a bit snobby there. I just read that part and she said the servers should serve her first, not the farmers.

 

I forgot to say that in her view, Tom is some peasant/servant who should be behaving better to her. When Chade and Fitz were talking about Shun, Chade told her she would have two servants to take care of her needs and an allowance. So Shun is looking for what she was promised. Not really well-bred of her to be complaining about it, but if she kept quiet she would never get anything. Not like Fitz was buying her nice clothes, was he? As we all know, Fitz thinks plain dress is the best. That's not really gonna cut if for Shun, she likes pretty clothes.

 

 [spoiler]I think there might be a moment where he actually realises his hypocrisy in chastising Lant for leaving Bee[/spoiler]

 

Agreed.

 

About RWC: hmmm, idk I kinda want to read it but it's 4 books and Hobb is a bit slow on the plot. Can I just pick up the last book and read that?

[AshOrSpark]

Eh, yes same as Malta, who also did nothing wrong. Just because she likes pretty clothes doesn't mean she's bad. I re-read the books and it seems pretty clear to me that Shun is just getting a bad rep for ridiculous stuff. Fitz has done 100x worse than her.

 

And I am not talking about when the Fool was in disguise. Everything I mentioned is his real, no-pretend actions.

 

I am reminded of when Fitz was a boy and he met Patience. He hated her and everything she did, he put the most negative spin on it that he could. Like, when he said he had no name, she gave him a name (Tom, which is what he used later as Tom Badgerlock  :dunce: ), he basically made it out that she was the worst person ever not to think of his feelings. Later the same thing happens with another person. Verity gives him a name (FitzChivalry)  :dunno:  but this time it's the best thing ever. :drunk: Same action, different spin. 

 

Also, I am not addicted to smileys.  :blushing:

 

Well, Shun is meant to be pretty annoying and she is.  As for Patience, I don't think he hated her or put a negative spin on it.  I didn't get that at all.  I think he just found he perplexing and scatty. As far as he is concerned, Tom is a name she has just come up with out of thin air as opposed to the nickname that Verity and Chivalry used for him in correspondence.   Also your other point about how Fitz treats Bee in terms of clothing and leaving her on her own, not washed etc all valid but there were extenuating circumstances plus the fact that he doesn't care for these things and he's only learning to be a father.  He does love her but does not know how to take care of her.  And let's face it, those things are pretty mild compared to Bee helping him burn a body.  Lant, on the other hand, had already belittled Bee in the past, and he was told specifically to look after, take care and protect Bee.

 

 

 

[spoiler]- Has Fitz actually leveled up his Skill or is this an effect of the location and the nearness of the skill well when he did the healings? [/spoiler]

 

 

[spoiler]  Now that is a serious question that I would love to discuss. :)

 

Fitz's skill abilities has definitely improved.  It happened when he came through the pillar with Chade as a passenger from Withywoods after they had been attacked.  Everyone was drenched and overwhelmed with his skill thoughts.  There were a few differences to this pillar journey from other journeys.  For a start, it was his first time as a passenger and he really had work hard to define and contain Chade from spilling out.  Chade also was bleeding and he put a bloodied hand on the pillar.  That's quite significant I think because these stones respond to blood, don't they? On the other hand, the Fool had already taken the dragon's blood by the time they had gone through the pillar.  Perhaps it wasn't so much the journey that supercharged Fitz's skilling as his link to the Fool and the dragon blood.[/spoiler]

 

Edited  because I still learning to use this site.  

[Gigei]

I was just reading some Shun stuff last time I posted.This time I am already

 

[spoiler]at the healing part again (re-read) and I am going over the implications if Fitz can actually do a LOT more.

 

The blood - ooooh I didn't think about Chade's bloody hand.

 

Link to the Fool - good point about the dragon blood. Also, the Fool dipped his hand in the silver Skill stuff again. If Fitz's Skill abilities are being affcted by his bond to the Fool, I am guessing that might have made him stronger, too.[/spoiler]

 

Edit: I think we are posting and editing for errors at the same time, hahahaha.

 

 

 

there were extenuating circumstances

 

Yes, there are. But there are also extenuating circumstances for other people.

 

As for the example I gave, I don't think Verity put more thought into the name than Patience did, he just came up with the most obvious name. Verity says he wrote down "FitzChivalry" in his report when Fitz was left with him. "Fitz" means boy, IIRC so FitzChivalry just mean's Chivalry's boy.I think it's like Fitzroy, the name they give to royal bastards since it means "son of the king." At least Patience gave him an actual name and not just "that guy, hes the son of that other guy."

 

I'm kidding. My point isn't that these incidents are both exactly the same but they are very similar. I'm thinking that it just depends on how you look at it.The fact that Fitz has used the name Patience gave him probably means he likes it now so these days he views both naming events are good.

[Filippa Eilhart]

Uh the only other conversation they have about Shun, Chade only says "her education has been sadly neglected"

 

I was thinking of this:

[spoiler]

"...But what they [the grandparents] did was worse. She is vapid, Fitz. And vain. Ignorant."

[/spoiler]

 

Speaking of Chade,

 

[spoiler] didn't Bee mean him when she said Shun's "hidden father" would "shred" their attackers? I wonder if he still has a role to play. [/spoiler]

[jurble]

Random speculation/predictions

 

[spoiler] In Kelsingra, the dragon Arbuc confirms the Fool's speculation in Fool's Fate that Fitz (and all Skilled persons) is descended from Elderlings, by sensing him as dragon-touched by a dragon long thought dead.  

 

So, we know the Elderlings survived the death of the dragons - but why were the surviving Elderling cities abandoned?   Because without dragons, continuing to live in Elderling cities turned people into monsters like the Rain Wilders.  The surviving Elderlings abandoned their cities and their descendants slowly turned back into humans without the influence of dragons - except they retained the Skill.

 

However, Fitz is the first person we've seen a dragon like Arbuc mistake for an Elderling, implying he's the first Skilled Arbuc has come across.   Does that imply all of Jamailia and its colonies lack Elderling blood?  Vindeleer possesses the Skill, though whether this is a mutation or implies Elderling descent is unknown.   Maybe the Six Duchies is the only region where the Elderlings survived and had descendants?

 

Regardless, we know from the Rain Wilds trilogy that Tellator survives the collapse of Kelsingra.  Currently Rapskal is being a douche due to Tellator's memories, but those memories end at the death of Kelsingra.

 

So I'm guessing there's going to be some sort of ironic moment where it turns out Tellator was in fact Fitz' Elderling ancestor, and putting Rapskal into some manner of conundrum - would Tellator kill, imprison or attack his own kin? Probably not.  Would Rapskal?  So Rapskal has to confront the idea he is not infact Tellator if he wants to deal with Fitz.

 

[/spoiler]

[HexMachina]

I was thinking of this:
[spoiler]
"...But what they [the grandparents] did was worse. She is vapid, Fitz. And vain. Ignorant."
[/spoiler]
 
Speaking of Chade,
 
[spoiler] didn't Bee mean him when she said Shun's "hidden father" would "shred" their attackers? I wonder if he still has a role to play. [/spoiler]

Is that the quote from the OP you are talking about?
[spoiler]
"They had not been men in the dream but pennants, hung in tattered shreds from a laundry line, dripping blood."
I saw that as one possible future Bee had seen. But it's important to remember that not all futures she sees will happen. Since most, if not all of the Chalcedeans are dead now (and the full conversation makes it seem like she refers to the Chalcedeans with that). Also, Bee actually says that in no future she has seen does that (Shun being raped by them again) happen. So it seems quite clear she had seen other futures [/spoiler]

[shadowbinding shoe]

Fitz actually denotes a bastard son of a noble so Fitz is 'The Noble Bastard' and FitzChivalry is 'Chivalry's bastard'. If it was just son of there wouldn't be such insult in his name throughout the Farseer trilogy.

 

Fitz prefers Verity name for him over Patience because he believes Verity imbued it with thought and meaning while Patience picked it out of a hat. As he becomes fonder of her over the years her name for him likewise gains better connotations.

 

Filippa
 

[SPOILER]didn't Bee mean him when she said Shun's "hidden father" would "shred" their attackers? I wonder if he still has a role to play.[/SPOILER]

 

[SPOILER]

I'm not sure if that timeline was still valid. It sounded like one where they (or at least the Chalcedeans and Shun) ended up in Chalced and Chade rose from his stupor to hunt them down. Actually I think Bee's slip warned Dwalia that the Chalcedeans were doomed and she should find a new Path to flee Buck[/SPOILER]

[shadowbinding shoe]

DOUBLE POST

[Filippa Eilhart]

Helena, yes, that's it. Thanks! (also thanks, shoe). It makes sense that it's a possible future which isn't going to happen. It's a shame. I'd like to see him in action again.

[HexMachina]

Random speculation/predictions
 
[spoiler] In Kelsingra, the dragon Arbuc confirms the Fool's speculation in Fool's Fate that Fitz (and all Skilled persons) is descended from Elderlings, by sensing him as dragon-touched by a dragon long thought dead.  
 
So, we know the Elderlings survived the death of the dragons - but why were the surviving Elderling cities abandoned?   Because without dragons, continuing to live in Elderling cities turned people into monsters like the Rain Wilders.  The surviving Elderlings abandoned their cities and their descendants slowly turned back into humans without the influence of dragons - except they retained the Skill.
 
However, Fitz is the first person we've seen a dragon like Arbuc mistake for an Elderling, implying he's the first Skilled Arbuc has come across.   Does that imply all of Jamailia and its colonies lack Elderling blood?  Vindeleer possesses the Skill, though whether this is a mutation or implies Elderling descent is unknown.   Maybe the Six Duchies is the only region where the Elderlings survived and had descendants?
 
Regardless, we know from the Rain Wilds trilogy that Tellator survives the collapse of Kelsingra.  Currently Rapskal is being a douche due to Tellator's memories, but those memories end at the death of Kelsingra.
 
So I'm guessing there's going to be some sort of ironic moment where it turns out Tellator was in fact Fitz' Elderling ancestor, and putting Rapskal into some manner of conundrum - would Tellator kill, imprison or attack his own kin? Probably not.  Would Rapskal?  So Rapskal has to confront the idea he is not infact Tellator if he wants to deal with Fitz.
 
[/spoiler]

[spoiler] the dragon touched one that Arbuc sensed is (or so I thought anyway)presumably The Fool from drinking the Dragon Blood. Which, if it comes to light, will presumably result in a lot of problems due to the who dragon products taboo.
Regarding the Skill, I was speaking to another boarder about this and I was trying to work out whether Wintrow at the start of the Liveships Trilogy (where he is creating the stained glass window with the Priests of Sa) was using some version of the Skill. If so, it would suggest that there is a remnant of the Skill in Bingtown, Jamailia and the Rain Wilds. In fact, Fitz says that all people have some connection to the Skill, to a great or lesser extent, but not everyone is able to utilise their ability. I imagine that a lack of the knowledge which the Six Duchies have on the Skill means that even those who have the Skill to a greater degree among the Southern societies cannot utilise it because they do not know what it is or understand how it can be used. Remember that at the end of the Tawny Man, the "Skill call" was sent out and many people came to Buckkeep to learn. This contrasts with Farseer where it was thought Kettle was the last skill user outside the royal family. Perhaps if something similar were done in Bingtown similar results would be had?
I suspect this will eventually be used by King Dutiful as leverage in the negotiations with Kelsingra regarding trading of Elderling artefacts and attempts to control the dragons. E.g. We will send you a skill coterie and skill master/mistress to teach anyone of your people with the ability to Skill. We will also help to heal your children and fix your physical deformities. If you will help us. [/spoiler]

[Gigei]

I was thinking of this:
[spoiler]
"...But what they [the grandparents] did was worse. She is vapid, Fitz. And vain. Ignorant."
[/spoiler]

Yes but [spoiler]vapid and ignorant is not the same as a bitch.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]"didn't Bee mean him when she said Shun's "hidden father" would "shred" their attackers? I wonder if he still has a role to play."

Yes, Bee meant Chade but I think that was just a possibility. I would love it if Chade suddenly came out of nowhere and shredded those Servant.

Elderling ancestors of the Farseers - hmm it would tie up the Fool's tasks of preserving the Farseer line and bringing back the dragons if the two are related.

[/spoiler]

Helena, do the dragons use Skill? Or is it a special dragonmagic type of thing? I have not read RWC. If they do use Skill then the Elderlings probably do have it.

[HexMachina]

[spoiler]
Dragons drink the Skill, it is sort of very important for their development. The Rain Wilds Dragons, due to the lengthy time they spent as serpents (they are the same serpents from the Liveships btw. One of them is Maulkin) are deformed and not properly developed. To cut a long story short drinking the Skill from the well in Kelsingra (which the Fool seeks out) eventually helps them begin to develop properly. I might be misremembering but I think they are still slightly weaker than standard dragons like IceFyre and Tintaglia. Which is why their blood has streaks of silver/skill running through it (the dragons refer to this Skill well as "Silver". They don't skill, exactly, but they need the Skill to survive I guess. It's a bit complicated and hard to explain. Although, now I think on it i suppose it is possible that the dragon glamour is a form of Skill manipulation. The dragons "guide" the changes of their Elderlings too, deciding how they should change and directing them. It isn't quite clear how they do this though. However, as per usual, the dragons are arrogant and ignorant, so the changes they give to the Elderlings are not always practical, and are often dangerous/damaging. One dragon in particular, who is the most arrogant and self-centred of the lot of them, gives her Keeper wings just so she looks more startling and impressive than all of the other, without considering the pain and impracticality of this change.
[/spoiler]

[Gigei]

[spoiler]
Dragons drink the Skill, it is sort of very important for their development. The Rain Wilds Dragons, due to the lengthy time they spent as serpents (they are the same serpents from the Liveships btw. One of them is Maulkin) are deformed and not properly developed. To cut a long story short drinking the Skill from the well in Kelsingra (which the Fool seeks out) eventually helps them begin to develop properly. I might be misremembering but I think they are still slightly weaker than standard dragons like IceFyre and Tintaglia. Which is why their blood has streaks of silver/skill running through it (the dragons refer to this Skill well as "Silver". They don't skill, exactly, but they need the Skill to survive I guess. It's a bit complicated and hard to explain. Although, now I think on it i suppose it is possible that the dragon glamour is a form of Skill manipulation. The dragons "guide" the changes of their Elderlings too, deciding how they should change and directing them. It isn't quite clear how they do this though. However, as per usual, the dragons are arrogant and ignorant, so the changes they give to the Elderlings are not always practical, and are often dangerous/damaging. One dragon in particular, who is the most arrogant and self-centred of the lot of them, gives her Keeper wings just so she looks more startling and impressive than all of the other, without considering the pain and impracticality of this change.
[/spoiler]

Hmmm so there is a very important link to dragons. Interesting. Thank you.

[shadowbinding shoe]

The Silver / liquid Skill gives the dragons their magical abilities: it empowers their venom, enables their multigenerational memories, the ability to broadcast their thoughts and cast glamour. Even their intelligence might be dependent on consuming Silver.

 

Their memories might be a patchwork but by the end of the series and they fear their close contact with their human keepers made them too human (could make their offspring be Others instead of proper dragons) but one of the new dragons does defeats Icefyre in flying combat.

[Shaun Snow]

[spoiler] the dragon touched one that Arbuc sensed is (or so I thought anyway)presumably The Fool from drinking the Dragon Blood. Which, if it comes to light, will presumably result in a lot of problems due to the who dragon products taboo.
Regarding the Skill, I was speaking to another boarder about this and I was trying to work out whether Wintrow at the start of the Liveships Trilogy (where he is creating the stained glass window with the Priests of Sa) was using some version of the Skill. If so, it would suggest that there is a remnant of the Skill in Bingtown, Jamailia and the Rain Wilds. In fact, Fitz says that all people have some connection to the Skill, to a great or lesser extent, but not everyone is able to utilise their ability. I imagine that a lack of the knowledge which the Six Duchies have on the Skill means that even those who have the Skill to a greater degree among the Southern societies cannot utilise it because they do not know what it is or understand how it can be used. Remember that at the end of the Tawny Man, the "Skill call" was sent out and many people came to Buckkeep to learn. This contrasts with Farseer where it was thought Kettle was the last skill user outside the royal family. Perhaps if something similar were done in Bingtown similar results would be had?
I suspect this will eventually be used by King Dutiful as leverage in the negotiations with Kelsingra regarding trading of Elderling artefacts and attempts to control the dragons. E.g. We will send you a skill coterie and skill master/mistress to teach anyone of your people with the ability to Skill. We will also help to heal your children and fix your physical deformities. If you will help us. [/spoiler]

 

That'd be a really bad deal for the Duchies IMO. They aren't a poor nation and can get trade agreements from other places, but they have a virtual monopoly on the Skill magic built over centuries of study. It'd be crazy to give that away, especially without demanding something huge in return. I'd offer healing to the Rain Wilders in exchange for their becoming a vassal state and swearing fealty if I were Dutiful. I certainly wouldn't teach them how to use it without an oath of loyalty.

[Darth Richard II]

Yes but [spoiler]vapid and ignorant is not the same as a bitch.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]"didn't Bee mean him when she said Shun's "hidden father" would "shred" their attackers? I wonder if he still has a role to play."

Yes, Bee meant Chade but I think that was just a possibility. I would love it if Chade suddenly came out of nowhere and shredded those Servant.

Elderling ancestors of the Farseers - hmm it would tie up the Fool's tasks of preserving the Farseer line and bringing back the dragons if the two are related.

[/spoiler]

Helena, do the dragons use Skill? Or is it a special dragonmagic type of thing? I have not read RWC. If they do use Skill then the Elderlings probably do have it.

Oh cmon, it was late and I was tired. Are we really going to go there?

[AshOrSpark]

 

That'd be a really bad deal for the Duchies IMO. They aren't a poor nation and can get trade agreements from other places, but they have a virtual monopoly on the Skill magic built over centuries of study. It'd be crazy to give that away, especially without demanding something huge in return. I'd offer healing to the Rain Wilders in exchange for their becoming a vassal state and swearing fealty if I were Dutiful. I certainly wouldn't teach them how to use it without an oath of loyalty.

 

[spoiler]TBF, Dutiful could always ask the Kelsingrans to persuade the dragons not to raid in Six Duchies in return for assistance.   I know that dragons do their own thing but they can be persuaded if they are incentivised enough.  Anyway, how come the new Elderings don't have skill abilities?[/spoiler]

[shadowbinding shoe]

Fitz wasn't aware of the skill until Galen showed him the Skill river.