On the show, are Sansa and Jon destined for each other's arms?

[Le Cygne]

There's nothing reductive about loving someone.

As GRRM says:

"Sexuality, once again, I think it's an important driving force in life. It motivates most of the things we do, and it's one of the root things that defines who we are. And yet you find it strangely missing from fantasy, even from some very good fantasy. I admire J.R.R. Tolkien vastly, I think all modern fantasy derives from Tolkien, and Lord of the Rings is one of the great works of this century. Nonetheless, it does have flaws, and I think its almost complete absence of women, and of anything even approaching sex and/or romantic love -- it reflects its time and its place, but it's certainly not something I wanted to do."

http://towerhand.narod.ru/interv-01-eng.htm 

And again:

"Life is very full of sex, or should be. As much as I admire Tolkien -- and I do, he was a giant of fantasy and a giant of literature, and I think he wrote a great book that will be read for many years -- you do have to wonder where all those Hobbits came from, since you can't imagine Hobbits having sex, can you? Well, sex is an important part of who we are. It drives us, it motivates us, it makes us do sometimes very noble things and it makes us do sometimes incredibly stupid things. Leave it out, and you've got an incomplete world... I think sex is important; it's not in a lot of fantasy. It's an important part of human beings, the way we interact with each other."

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Including love or sex is fine, but making it the main motivators for characters does reduce them in my opinion to obvious Hollywood tropes and the stuff of a bored housewives dream , or worse a teenager. 

'Love' is a complex emotion and is almost always handled badly in fiction , to a point of unrealism. 

GRRM has a mixed track record of it as well, usually it seems to involve constantly bringing up the name of a character you love and basically moping around after them. 

I would hope that any major decisions made by Jon or Sansa aren't, despite them being young people, silly teenage love crushes. 

[Le Cygne]

Calling people names ("bored housewives") is not making points well.

GRRM is saying in these quotes, and there are more, that love is a powerful motivator. It's been that way in stories since time began.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

It's a certain demographic. Not name calling. 

Yes its often used in fiction and it's exactly that, it's fictitious and unrealistic in its portayal at the best of times. 

love is a powerful motivator.. Usually for teenagers, adults often are a lot more sensible. GRRM at least has the good sense to realise that with some of his characters. His portrayal of Danys feelings for Daario for instance I think is realistic for a teenage girl who is trying to combat her hormones.

[Le Cygne]

Love is a major motivation for everyone from dogs to kids to adults, in stories, as in life. Just one example, Catelyn and Ned were motivated by love for each other and their families, throughout the story. This is normal human behavior.

Here's another:

Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name. "He would do whatever was right," he said . . . ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. "No matter what."

"Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms . . . or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy."

[MaryaStone]

It's a certain demographic. Not name calling. 

 

What is a certain demographic in your view? Can you explain why too?

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

eh?

[Woman of War]

There is no need to discuss demographics. But reducing the complex emotion of love to sexual or romantic love is shortsighted. In Martin's books  intense friendship or family love, love for siblings or, as about the strongest and most complex emotion, feelings between parents and children, are more intensely explored, are at least as  plot shaping as erotic love stories. Those latter ones are presented as destructive and with horrible consequences, like  Rhaegar and Lyanna or Tyrion and Tysha as prominent examples.

Love is so much more complex than romance.

[CaptainTheo]

I also think Jon/Sansa shipping is crackpot, for reasons discussed and also the fact that they're half-siblings (likely first cousins in reality) and this isn't the Lannister family.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

It needn't be the primary motivation for it to work. 

[Mandzipop]

I don't think this will happen in the show unless it is planned for the books. D & D have a rough outline for the books, just not the finer details. This plot point would be way too major to add in by their own accord or to omit if it is in the story. And to be fair, if this is in the story there is no way they are going to omit this plot. If and this is a big if it happened, I cannot see this being a love match. It would be purely political. The one thing that makes me suspect that it may happen is that it appears D & D have gone out of their way to keep them apart. They have so far shared a few seconds of screen time in a scene which was essential and was unavoidable. To me, that is the biggest hint that something might be planned.

It certainly won't happen in season 6 (if it happens at all) as I reckon a couple of things would need to happen. Jon would need to discover his real parentage and Ramsey needs to die. Oh yeah, Jon needs resurrecting (just a minor issue). There is also the ewwwwwww icky factor.

We do know they will be interacting this season, that will tell us more of the potential of these two. I wouldn't discount it as a possibility. This story, both screen and books are full of surprises, good and bad.

[Lord Friendzone]

I also think Jon/Sansa shipping is crackpot, for reasons discussed and also the fact that they're half-siblings (likely first cousins in reality) and this isn't the Lannister family.

Stark did incest too. You know cousins, but yeah half-siblings is the problem. Well, for some reason they diidn' even share a scene and their bond brother/sister, and it's not there like with Arya and Jon. Just hoping they will do something else than that, but tough to predict...what are they going to do with them in terms of romances. 

[Myself656]

If and this is a big if it happened, I cannot see this being a love match. It would be purely political. The one thing that makes me suspect that it may happen is that it appears D & D have gone out of their way to keep them apart. They have so far shared a few seconds of screen time in a scene which was essential and was unavoidable. To me, that is the biggest hint that something might be planned.

It certainly won't happen in season 6 (if it happens at all) as I reckon a couple of things would need to happen. Jon would need to discover his real parentage and Ramsey needs to die. Oh yeah, Jon needs resurrecting (just a minor issue). There is also the ewwwwwww icky factor.

I agree on the "not a love match" part. Based on the book setup I'd lean towards it playing out as more likely a case of "everything you wanted in the worst possible way" and/or "the best of a set of bad options."

For "everything you wanted" it would fit because each of their initial dreams in the books were to become a version of Ned (Jon) and Cat (Sansa) and have a life at Winterfell with children named after their fallen relatives. So for a bittersweet ending it would make sense to give them just what the wanted in the beginning (even if that's not what they might choose now) and in every last way, including both the good and the bad (ex. while they did come to love each other eventually, neither Ned nor Cat was the other's first choice and the marriage was entirely out of duty not love. Likewise, it only came about after most of Starks; Ned's father, brother and sister; had died during the war).

For "best of the bad options" it could fit because if the choice is psychotic rapist (Ramsey), member of the House that murdered your parents and older brother and heaped untold misery upon the survivors (Tyrion), creepy dude who left you with the psychotic rapist whose main interest in you is that you look like a younger version of your mother whom he was obsessed with (Littlefinger) or a cousin whom you thought of as not really your brother (Jon)... there's one option that's far less bad than the others.

Conversely, if your options are your rain down fire and blood aunt (Dany), a fire-obsessed zealot who throws innocents into fires for power (Mel), a murder-obsessed cousin you grew up thinking of as a sister (Arya) or a cousin you were fairly distant from (Sansa)... there's again an option that's less bad than the others.

Throw in a dash of politics to appease or thwart various factions and/or magical factors (possibly related to the balance of ice and fire) and I think such a "best of bad options" ending is more than possible, perhaps even likely.

[Winter's Cold]

I agree on the "not a love match" part. Based on the book setup I'd lean towards it playing out as more likely a case of "everything you wanted in the worst possible way" and/or "the best of a set of bad options."

For "everything you wanted" it would fit because each of their initial dreams in the books were to become a version of Ned (Jon) and Cat (Sansa) and have a life at Winterfell with children named after their fallen relatives. So for a bittersweet ending it would make sense to give them just what the wanted in the beginning (even if that's not what they might choose now) and in every last way, including both the good and the bad (ex. while they did come to love each other eventually, neither Ned nor Cat was the other's first choice and the marriage was entirely out of duty not love. Likewise, it only came about after most of Starks; Ned's father, brother and sister; had died during the war).

For "best of the bad options" it could fit because if the choice is psychotic rapist (Ramsey), member of the House that murdered your parents and older brother and heaped untold misery upon the survivors (Tyrion), creepy dude who left you with the psychotic rapist whose main interest in you is that you look like a younger version of your mother whom he was obsessed with (Littlefinger) or a cousin whom you thought of as not really your brother (Jon)... there's one option that's far less bad than the others.

Conversely, if your options are your rain down fire and blood aunt (Dany), a fire-obsessed zealot who throws innocents into fires for power (Mel), a murder-obsessed cousin you grew up thinking of as a sister (Arya) or a cousin you were fairly distant from (Sansa)... there's again an option that's less bad than the others.

Throw in a dash of politics to appease or thwart various factions and/or magical factors (possibly related to the balance of ice and fire) and I think such a "best of bad options" ending is more than possible, perhaps even likely.

In Jon's mind, Arya is far more preferable than Sansa. Arya is his vision of the ideal woman. To Jon, Sansa is someone inherently untrustworthy. Her association with Littlefinger, the Lannisters and the Boltons are enough to ensure that. Plus she was the sibling with which Jon had the coolest relationship due  to her propensity to tattle-tale. Perhaps for Sansa, Jon would be a better option than most. But for Jon, Sansa is beneath Arya and perhaps Dany.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Maybe the changes in (show) Sansa would make her more appealing to him?

[Joan Jett]

Conversely, if your options are your rain down fire and blood aunt (Dany), a fire-obsessed zealot who throws innocents into fires for power (Mel), a murder-obsessed cousin you grew up thinking of as a sister (Arya) or a cousin you were fairly distant from (Sansa)... there's again an option that's less bad than the others.

OK first of all, Jon would never view Arya as just a "murdered-obsessed cousin". He will accept her no matter what. Arya even thinks to herself, "Jon will want me, even if no one else does. "  and it's fucking true. They have an extra special bond of unconditional love, its right in the books.

Also I don't think that Jon would forget how Sansa made him feel different for being a bastard when they were growing up. Even when Jon is thinking about his family he says that he misses all of them "even Sansa". Their relationship was a little more than distant. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

I do not think book universe such a union is going to happen but it is rhthe show where it seems possible.

[A Ghost of Someone]

I do not think book universe such a union is going to happen but it is rhthe show where it seems possible.

[Myself656]

OK first of all, Jon would never view Arya as just a "murdered-obsessed cousin". He will accept her no matter what. Arya even thinks to herself, "Jon will want me, even if no one else does. "  and it's fucking true. They have an extra special bond of unconditional love, its right in the books.

Also I don't think that Jon would forget how Sansa made him feel different for being a bastard when they were growing up. Even when Jon is thinking about his family he says that he misses all of them "even Sansa". Their relationship was a little more than distant. 

First, anyone who goes to bed every night reciting the names of everyone she plans to murder is "murder-obsessed" whether Jon views her that way or not. Would he accept her anyway? Sure. Would he want to have in his life as a beloved sister? Certainly. Would he want to have kids with her? Doubtful.

In this case a distant relationship is actually better owing to the Westermarck effect. Unless Jon embraces full-on Targy incestuousess Arya is too much like a sister for either of them to think of the other romantically. That distance between Jon and Sansa though makes it more plausible to sidestep the Westermark effect.

I'll also point out as well that, based on all available evidence Jon and Sansa are actually going to get to interact this coming season (at the very least by the battle of the bastards if she were to go to Littlefinger, but I think she'll be going North to intercept Jon; there's no other reason for the name drop and that he's the leader of a military force which could, in theory, protect her from Ramsey otherwise). Such interaction will give them an opportunity to show foundations being laid if that's where they're planning on going (particularly now that both have had many of their fantasies and illusions stripped away by their experiences). Given the convergence of plot elements as the story progresses I'm not expecting to find Sansa very far from Jon for the rest of the series whether they would become romantically involved or not.

By contrast, it sounds like Arya doesn't even make it back to Westeros until mid-to-late s6 and down in the Riverlands regardless. She might get to step into a bit of the Lady Stoneheart vengeance-y role down there, but that doesn't put her anywhere near Jon or Sansa (and likely Rickon) to build anything on.

 

Because its not just desire going into this mix, there's also opportunity to factor into it. Jon and Sansa will have more opportunities to interact in upcoming episodes while we can't even know for sure if Arya will ever see either of them again.

Likewise, presuming a political rather than a love match for Jon, Sansa is higher in the inheritance food chain than Arya (and Jon could very well be "The One True King" and so should not be expecting to marry for love) and so would be the better match to resolve any potential political dispute that a political marriage would be intended to mediate. She's already the presumed heir to Winterfell (and should Bran remain a tree and something happen to Rickon would become so in fact as well) and depending on Edmure's fate could be heir to the Riverlands as well. Presuming there's even a civilization left after the oncoming war that's a pretty vast territory that would be sensible for a King to bind to himself through blood.

[Arya-Jon]

First, anyone who goes to bed every night reciting the names of everyone she plans to murder is "murder-obsessed" whether Jon views her that way or not. Would he accept her anyway? Sure. Would he want to have in his life as a beloved sister? Certainly. Would he want to have kids with her? Doubtful.

 

 

Firstly Arya is not "murder obessed". She is not going around looking to murder everyone and anyone. She is nice to so many people during her stint with the Faceless Men, including Sam (There are many such people in the books). The problem is in the show these things are not shown probably because of lack of time. And honestly whats the point of showing anything other than "cool dialogues, sex and fighting". Thats how the show runners seem to think. 

She is "Revenge obessed" not "Murder Obessed" . She wants to hurt those who wronged her. She thinks that way because unless she does not ,she will not be able to forget the wrongs and the wrongs will haunt her so much that she will not be able to sleep.  Would Jon mind it if his lover is killing people. A bit. But that did not stop him from loving Ygritte. With Val, he liked her not only because she is beautiful but also because she is lethal. He just loves resourceful people and not ladies who are stuck in a tower waiting to be rescued (As he mentioned in the books). Actually this lady in a tower reminds me of Sansa. As far as revenge is concerned , did not Jon long to kill Ramsay when he heard that he had Arya.

I am sorry I am talking about the books in a show thread. But it is important we understand that the showrunner do not have the time to do justice to all characterestics of a person. They want to do it in a certain time. A lot of the book readers of Asoiaf are nerds. But the show runners are making the show for the masses. So they focus on what the general public likes :Sex, Cool dialogues and Fighting. They skip characters like Jeyne Poole because the masses can never be as  invested in her as Sansa.

Btw, even I shipped Jon/Sansa for a month or so after watching the show. Its only when I  read the outline this July and reread the books and gathered more evidence that I got to Jon/Arya.

So its not like I am favoring her just because hey "I ship Jon/Arya" . Its because the evidence lead me to abandon my previous stance. The show runners have stated that they would not change the endgame and Jon and Arya are certainly crucial to the endgame. This much we can gather from all interviews, Grrm Quotes and Book Evidence. I do expect the show and the books to reach the same point in the end. And because I have read the books, I know it will not be Jon/Sansa. They will accomodate Jon/Arya the same way they introduced the Jaime/Cersei rape scene. They will simply not care about giving the reasons and motivations like Grrm does. For them, I think incest, graphic and controversial scenes are perfect. Because hey TRPs.