On the show, are Sansa and Jon destined for each other's arms?

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

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Statements like "The ending will be the same and they are not going to replace Arya with Sansa' makes no sense when they have already replaced Arya with Sansa in a plot line that is very significant for Jon and Arya's relationship. The whole ADwD Fake Arya plot was about Jon and Arya, culminating in the Pink letter and Jon getting shanked. GRRM was heading towards something there. By replacing fake Arya with Sansa, and getting Jon and Sansa to meet, David and Dan are building up a different relationship.

Depends. Is the Jon / Arya the most important part of the story? Its not on the show, it takes a secondary place to the overall plot which is understandable when there are so many things to juggle,  plus it can be established later on and shown in a different way if and when Arya gets to Westeros. I also don't think its a romantic relationship in any shape or form, so I'm ruling that out. 

Is that same relationship being created between Jon and Sansa, I don't believe so at all. Just because Sansa ends up at Winterfell next season doesn't mean much, she more than likely will do the same in the books seeing as how the Vale and Winterfell arcs will push towards each other. 

[JonSnowed]

23 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Ending is the same, person sitting on the irone throne should be the same, but road to it might be a bit different. It kinda already is that way. Some characters are dead on the show are still alive as george puts it....and might play a significant role further down the line, Some events will be a bit different and so on. You honestly think for example that Jaime will by any chance end up in Dorne, Ramsay with Sansa...marrying and raping her? Of course Sansa will probably end up in Norh, but I imagine under a different circumstances. George even pointed to the idea that books and show are two separate things and it's a great. Show even puts a different ideas for him to consider.

Jamie is back on his book arc now, Sansa they've merged her role with Jayne Poole rather than have her sat at the Eerie but I suspect she is now also getting back on book arc (I think she will come north with the Vale forces in the books).

So far there are no major characters dead only secondary ones and minor ones.  Do you really think either Barristan and Stannis are making it out of Winds given where they both end in ADWD?

 

[Myself656]

15 hours ago, Wilnova said:

But Sansa is not the best choice available for Jon. Considering that Jon is a more important character than Sansa, I am sure his story is heading off in a direction that has to do with his lineage and the fight against the Others and the characters that form part of his story line. In the books Jon and Sansa have nothing to do with each other. That Jon needs a political marriage with Sansa to gain the North is a fallacy. Jon already has the support of both the North and the Riverlands. The Northern and Riverland Lords were witnesses to Robb's will where he disinherits Sansa and possibly legitimizes Jon before naming him heir: future lord of Winterfell and KITN. Therefore, Jon does not need any kind of marriage to secure his hold on the North. If anything, Sansa would need Jon to remove her from the disinheritance. If there is any kind of political marriage for Jon in the books it would be more useful to do so with any of the southern houses or Dany.

You mean those Northern and Riverland lords who all died at the Red Wedding? Dead men tell no tales and Robb's will hasn't turned up since his death (I'd give better than even odds it was either found in Robb's effects and burned by the Boltons/Freys as part of the deal with Tywin or that Roose or the Freys found it and are now holding onto the will as leverage against the Lannisters at some later date).

By the same token, King Robert had a signed will naming Eddard as his executor until his true heir could be found and look at all the good that did. The series has proven that words on paper are meaningless without someone having the power and desire to back them up.

As evidenced by Cat's reaction to Robb's bringing it up, the dual stigmas of 'bastard' and 'oathbreaker' (for being slipped out of his NW oaths to satisfy Robb's desires... I doubt many will believe he actually died and rose from the dead) would not sit well with everyone in the North. Your presumption of automatic support from the North and Riverlands seems a bit shaky if you ask me. Particularly if the man in question ends up as the leader of the Wildlings after leaving the Watch.

By the same token, the primary reason to disinherit Sansa was because of her marriage to a Lannister; a situation no longer in effect.

Presuming Robb's will is even known to them, how many of the Northern lords might prefer backing Eddard's trueborn daughter (who is believed to have helped kill the hated King Joffrey) over backing an oathbreaking bastard who let the Wildlings through the Wall? A quarter? Half? Two candidates, neither ideal... is exactly the sort of succession crisis that could make a political marriage the least costly resolution.

For that matter, even if Robb's will is known, how well does it hold up once it is learned that Rickon, Eddard's youngest trueborn son, still lives?

There's plenty of things yet to occur in two novels that will likely each rival or exceed the length of the entire Lord of the Rings Trilogy that could undercut your expectations.

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To reiterate, while Jon/Sansa is never going to happen in the books...

I want pics of your copies of TWoW and ADoS now or you're just guessing like the rest of us. Stating opinion as fact doesn't actually make it more true.

[Wilnova]

9 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Depends. Is the Jon / Arya the most important part of the story? Its not on the show, it takes a secondary place to the overall plot which is understandable when there are so many things to juggle,  plus it can be established later on and shown in a different way if and when Arya gets to Westeros. I also don't think its a romantic relationship in any shape or form, so I'm ruling that out. 

Is that same relationship being created between Jon and Sansa, I don't believe so at all. Just because Sansa ends up at Winterfell next season doesn't mean much, she more than likely will do the same in the books seeing as how the Vale and Winterfell arcs will push towards each other. 

It may not be the most important part of the story, but it was a part. There is a reason for why Martin had Jon worry about Arya through out ADwD and then die trying to save her. He broke his oaths for her, oaths he did not break for his father or brother. For some reason, Jon and Arya's relationship is important to GRRM because it's the only relationship he truly highlights (As opposed to say Jon/Sansa who barely remember the other exists). Now, I agree, we don't know whether he intends for it to be a truly sibling relationship or if he has other intentions. 

I also don't see how Sansa will end up doing the same in the books. Her season 5 and 6 storyline is already being played out in the books by other characters. She can't do the same in the books because the Northern lords are already plotting, the Boltons are about to go down and Davos is about to make an appearance with Rickon. All the while Sansa is pottering about in the Vale where GRRM has apparently started a new plot arc for her. Unless GRRM puts the North plot in standstill in TWoW, while really forwarding Sansa's story in the Vale, there is no way Sansa can catch up to her show plot in the books. In the books, if LF, Sansa and the Vale army do go North, it will be around the time the Others have already invaded or Rickon/Jon have been established as Lord of Winterfell.

4 hours ago, Myself656 said:

You mean those Northern and Riverland lords who all died at the Red Wedding? Dead men tell no tales and Robb's will hasn't turned up since his death (I'd give better than even odds it was either found in Robb's effects and burned by the Boltons/Freys as part of the deal with Tywin or that Roose or the Freys found it and are now holding onto the will as leverage against the Lannisters at some later date).

What? Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont are presumed to be at Greywater Watch, Jason Mallister is imprisoned at Seagard, and Greatjon Umber is a hostage at the Twins. Edmure Tully is also alive.  Notice that the people who were witnesses to Robb's will comprises of both northern lords and Riverland lords. These people know what Robb intended, namely that Jon was his heir and that Sansa was to be disinherited. Notice also that they raised no objection to Robb's choice, but gave him their support.

4 hours ago, Myself656 said:

By the same token, King Robert had a signed will naming Eddard as his executor until his true heir could be found and look at all the good that did. The series has proven that words on paper are meaningless without someone having the power and desire to back them up.

Because the people who tore up Bob Baratheon's will are his enemies. They were betraying him. The Northern and Riverland Lords who fought for Robb were true allies. They know Robb's last wishes, they supported that wish and they are loyal. The North Remembers : Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is Stark.

4 hours ago, Myself656 said:

As evidenced by Cat's reaction to Robb's bringing it up, the dual stigmas of 'bastard' and 'oathbreaker' (for being slipped out of his NW oaths to satisfy Robb's desires... I doubt many will believe he actually died and rose from the dead) would not sit well with everyone in the North. Your presumption of automatic support from the North and Riverlands seems a bit shaky if you ask me. Particularly if the man in question ends up as the leader of the Wildlings after leaving the Watch.

By the same token, the primary reason to disinherit Sansa was because of her marriage to a Lannister; a situation no longer in effect.

Cat was the only person who objected to the decision because she has always disliked Jon. Her choice was even more idiotic. Some unknown cousin from the Vale as opposed to Ned Stark's son? A son born and brought up in winterfell by Ned himself? Who do you think the North would follow? Unknown Vale cousin (Cat's choice) or Jon (Robb's choice)?

As for the Wildlings, Jon is already making alliances between the North and the Wildlings. Alys Karstark is now married to one, giving Jon, Karstark support. He already has the support of the mountain clans who attended the wedding. They see him as a son of Winterfell. And Sansa is still married to Tyrion Lannister. Stannis addresses her as Lady Lannister and vows to see that she never gets Winterfell.

4 hours ago, Myself656 said:

Presuming Robb's will is even known to them, how many of the Northern lords might prefer backing Eddard's trueborn daughter (who is believed to have helped kill the hated King Joffrey) over backing an oathbreaking bastard who let the Wildlings through the Wall? A quarter? Half? Two candidates, neither ideal... is exactly the sort of succession crisis that could make a political marriage the least costly resolution.

We know the answer to this, since many of the Northern lords and Riverland Lords who backed Robb were witnesses to Robb's will (A will which possibly legitimizes Jon and disinherits Sansa) and made no objections to his decision. Jon has both military/leadership experience and Robb's support. Sansa has neither. Sansa is still married to the imp.

On the other hand, there is a trueborn daughter of Eddard's who is neither married to a Lannister or disinherited. Arya Stark. In ADwD, the clans are marching through the snow for Ned's little girl: In this case, Arya Stark.

Then there is still Rickon, who Davos is bringing back. If Bran is going to be stuck in the tree, then Rickon is the next Lord of Winterfell. All in all, I think Sansa would be the last person who would bring anything of value to the table with regards to Winterfell. LF is still hedging his bets on her because he does not know about Bran and Rickon, Manderly and Northern plotting or Robb's will. We do. If Sansa can manage to outwit LF and somehow take control of the Vale, then the only thing she brings to the table is a Vale army.

4 hours ago, Myself656 said:

For that matter, even if Robb's will is known, how well does it hold up once it is learned that Rickon, Eddard's youngest trueborn son, still lives?

True. In which case why in the world would Jon want to marry Sansa for political reasons? Rickon would be lord of Winterfell and surely Jon would have the support of his brother in any venture.

No, Jon either marries Arya for love (GRRM's original plan) or he marries Dany for politics. If he survives. In the books, Jon/Sansa makes no sense, politically or otherwise.

[WhitewolfStark]

21 hours ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

No, GRRM stated nothing of controversial Sansa chapters

 

There was some discussion of controversy by Posters for awhile.  However, it was later determine that it was dealing with the sample chapter Martin release last year and it dealt with SanSan fandom  (Sansa/Alyane did not think of Sandor during the chapter).

I think this describe and convey what the controversy was.

Pretty much this. It was Elio who called the preview chapter for Sansa "controversial" (he had read the preview chapter before GRRM released it online and gave his reactions to it). And he later explained his reasoning as being that Sansa is thinking in a more mature manner about her sexuality without once thinking about Sandor.

I remember these forums getting in an uproar about the fact that Elio thought that if Sansa had thoughts about someone other than Sandor that it'd be in any way construed as "controversial".

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

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I also don't see how Sansa will end up doing the same in the books. Her season 5 and 6 storyline is already being played out in the books by other characters. She can't do the same in the books because the Northern lords are already plotting, the Boltons are about to go down and Davos is about to make an appearance with Rickon. All the while Sansa is pottering about in the Vale where GRRM has apparently started a new plot arc for her. Unless GRRM puts the North plot in standstill in TWoW, while really forwarding Sansa's story in the Vale, there is no way Sansa can catch up to her show plot in the books. In the books, if LF, Sansa and the Vale army do go North, it will be around the time the Others have already invaded or Rickon/Jon have been established as Lord of Winterfell.

Its hard to tell whats ever going to happen. If you'd asked me where things would stand 2 books after reading ASOS I don't think I would have guessed that the answer was 'pretty much the same place'. 

I still think its very possible that Sansa will end up at Winterfell, maybe meeting Boltons, maybe not, at some point in the books. There are too many open questions about her storyline and many things could happen. The only people who have a good idea of what that is are GRRM and the makers of the show.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

You know Jon ending up with Dany doesn't preclude his getting together with someone else before or even after if Dany still believes her self barren. Dany could be open to Jon taking consorts, meaning junior wives or just paramours, particularly if she can keep Daario as part of the deal! Sansa &/or Arya would be logical choices for that role, from Dany's Targ point of view.

[Lord Friendzone]

1 hour ago, Winds of Winter blow cold said:

You know Jon ending up with Dany doesn't preclude his getting together with someone else before or even after if Dany still believes her self barren. Dany could be open to Jon taking consorts, meaning junior wives or just paramours, particularly if she can keep Daario as part of the deal! Sansa &/or Arya would be logical choices for that role, from Dany's Targ point of view.

Or will be magically able to bear a living child. It's possible that Jon will be involved sexually with someone else.

[A Ghost of Someone]

I do not see either Stark sister in book or show willing to be Jon's "mistress" if he were to marry Dany. It seems on the show, if rumors are true, that Sansa could be elevated to Queen in the North unless Bran comes back and ofcourse if Rickon dies, which would suit Littlefinger just fine. It also seems that the big question in the North would be who will Sansa end up with at the end of the season?

[The Arthur Smith]

On Thursday, January 28, 2016 at 6:22 PM, WhitewolfStark said:

Pretty much this. It was Elio who called the preview chapter for Sansa "controversial" (he had read the preview chapter before GRRM released it online and gave his reactions to it). And he later explained his reasoning as being that Sansa is thinking in a more mature manner about her sexuality without once thinking about Sandor.

I remember these forums getting in an uproar about the fact that Elio thought that if Sansa had thoughts about someone other than Sandor that it'd be in any way construed as "controversial".

On Thursday, January 28, 2016 at 8:26 PM, TheKitttenGuard said:

No, GRRM stated nothing of controversial Sansa chapters

 

There was some discussion of controversy by Posters for awhile.  However, it was later determine that it was dealing with the sample chapter Martin release last year and it dealt with SanSan fandom  (Sansa/Alyane did not think of Sandor during the chapter).

I think this describe and convey what the controversy was.

Ah... Thanks for the clarification. Crazy Sansa/Sandor shippers these days... 
 

 

[WhitewolfStark]

17 minutes ago, The Arthur Smith said:

Ah... Thanks for the clarification. Crazy Sansa/Sandor shippers these days... 
 

 

Not so much that the San/San shippers were actually crazy, but that Elio implied that they might be upset if things didn't go their way. And people got upset at the thought that Elio thought that about them in the end.

In the end, the San/San shippers didn't really care that she didn't think about Sandor in that chapter, as they were simply happy to get a status update on Sansa.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

The North won't follow Littlefinger & there really isn't anyone in the North that they could settle on for "The Queen in the North".

[A Ghost of Someone]

In light of the recent episode, maybe this post comes back for further review. Who knows?

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I think so. If Rickon dies, and Bran can't have kids, it would be up to Jon and Sansa to further the line. I doubt Sansa marries again, any guy would likely try and rule the North through her, which she likely isn't having. Jon is the safe bet, assuming she can see him as anything other than a brother, even though technically he'd be a cousin. It wouldn't matter to her what his true relation to her is if she sees him as a brother, it would be something she couldn't just turn off.

[Joan Jett]

1 hour ago, The Broke Howard Hughes said:

I think so. If Rickon dies, and Bran can't have kids, it would be up to Jon and Sansa to further the line. I doubt Sansa marries again, any guy would likely try and rule the North through her, which she likely isn't having. Jon is the safe bet, assuming she can see him as anything other than a brother, even though technically he'd be a cousin. It wouldn't matter to her what his true relation to her is if she sees him as a brother, it would be something she couldn't just turn off.

I guess Arya doesn't exist? Lol.

[WolfQueenArya]

Nope. Still don't see Jon and Sansa happening. Arya exists people and she will get back to Westeros somehow. I bet the reunion between Jon and Arya will be even better than Jon and Sansa's. IMO if Jon and Arya are still happening in the books ( which I still find plausible given all the clues and foreshadowing) then it should also happen on the show. They can't switch sisters; that's not how you do adaptations. I am still really miffed they got rid of the fake Arya plot line that has Sansa more important instead; it's like the show runners think Sansa is suddenly more important! ... They really need to make Arya's role much, much more prominent in the finals season(s). 

[Lord Friendzone]

4 minutes ago, WolfQueenArya said:

Nope. Still don't see Jon and Sansa happening. Arya exists people and she will get back to Westeros somehow. I bet the reunion between Jon and Arya will be even better than Jon and Sansa's. IMO if Jon and Arya are still happening in the books ( which I still find plausible given all the clues and foreshadowing) then it should also happen on the show. They can't switch sisters; that's not how you do adaptations. I am still really miffed they got rid of the fake Arya plot line that has Sansa more important instead; it's like the show runners think Sansa is suddenly more important! ... They really need to make Arya's role much, much more prominent in the finals season(s). 

For some reason I don't think we'll see Jon and Arya reunion. It could be one of the sdadest parts of this story. Pretty clear Jon will end up one way or the other in a relationship with a family member. Audience will find it gross to put Jon with Sansa or Arya. They don't want Starks to practise incest even tho they already did it in the past. Targaryens used to practise this...so it's normal. Jon and Daeny is the endgame on the show and it's pretty clear. It could be in the books too.

[WolfQueenArya]

2 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

For some reason I don't think we'll see Jon and Arya reunion. It could be one of the sdadest parts of this story. Pretty clear Jon will end up one way or the other in a relationship with a family member. Audience will find it gross to put Jon with Sansa or Arya. They don't want Starks to practise incest even tho they already did it in the past. Targaryens used to practise this...so it's normal. Jon and Daeny is the endgame on the show and it's pretty clear. It could be in the books too.

Well I prefer Jon and Dany then Jon and Sansa any day! And Jon and Arya need to reunite! First I believe Arya will reunite with Nymeria and then with Jon and most likely  Sansa as well. 

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

1 hour ago, Joan Jett said:

I guess Arya doesn't exist? Lol.

I totally forgot about her, not gonna lie. But I don't see her living a traditional life anyway, so no harm no foul, lol. I'd be shocked if she got married and had kids.

[Joan Jett]

14 minutes ago, The Broke Howard Hughes said:

I totally forgot about her, not gonna lie. But I don't see her living a traditional life anyway, so no harm no foul, lol. I'd be shocked if she got married and had kids.

I wouldn't and I'm a huge fan of her. She wants a pack, so why can't she form her own pack by having a family?

Arya parallels Egg in many ways, when he was a kid he was totally not interested in girls or having kids at all, yet he fell in love and had a family.