Who was a ''better person'': Brynden Rivers or Tywin Lannister?

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

 
 Of course they can. As already covered mental illness does not stop people from being successful, the fact that she is unhinged makes her achievements all the more impressive.

 

But I'm glad that yo acknowledge that Tywin's vast influence made her Queen, that is a hell of a legacy to leave his daughter and grandchildren. Truly, Tywin was impressive.
 

 

Yes, Tywin was impressive in some ways. He was intelligent, diligent and hardworking, a a good politician and hellbent on having control over everything, which meant that under his rule house Lannister rose in station. He was also a dismally cruel man, a petty, bitter person, a moral coward whose elitism and brutal methods exceeded by far the norm among the nobles of his times. He focused on getting his children, specially Cersei and Jaime, powerful position because that was what he saw them primarily, tools to his own goals, but his neglect of giving them a moral guidance and genuine affection helped to turn them into the messy, reviled creatures they are now and tainted house Lannister's honor like never before in the history, after Aegon's conquest. So that is Tywin. A despicable person who was also capable of acquiring more wealth and power than was already given to him in his cradle. You can be a failure as a father and as a human being while still being wealthy and powerful.

 

That doesn't make Cersei's achievements really impressive. She got a small council after she murdered the king and ruled through his children. When Tommen wants to exercise his authority she bullies him. That is her approach. Make sure people fear her and use daddy's influence to fulfill her desires. Once daddy is dead she goes on to screw everything for her family.

 

Compare that to Queen Alysanne, the example you refused to acknowledge as a major counterpoint for Cersei. The good queen changed paradigms, showed true competency and compassion and actually did good to the people of the realm.

 

Littlefinger has an interesting take on Cersei. He is a liar but he has no reason to lie in this occasion and his analysis is quite precise.

 

“Yes, but don’t let that trouble you. You’re still half a child. Every man’s a piece to start with, and every maid as well. Even some who think they are players.” He ate another seed. “Cersei, for one. She thinks herself sly, but in truth she is utterly predictable. Her strength rests on her beauty, birth, and riches. Only the first of those is truly her own, and it will soon desert her. I pity her then. She wants power, but has no notion what to do with it when she gets it. Everyone wants something, Alayne. And when you know what a man wants you know who he is, and how to move him.”

 

 

 

 

 lol

 

I love how you are now ignoring your previous argument.

 

You claimed that he has failed because some other Lannister (a nephew, cousin etc.) will inherit his kingdom, but if he was so preoccupied with having a son inherit from him he would have remarried.  Tywin was clearly accepted that another Lannister would take over, it didnt bother him, he clearly didnt think it meant his 'legacy' was a failure.

 

And how do you know he chose to marry his cousin? It may have been Tytos or even Jason who arranged it. Just because he loved her does not mean it was not political or arranged.

 

I'm not ignoring my previous argument. I never said Tywin didn't want other Lannister's as partners in life. I said he as the leader of his house and older brother wanted one of his sons to inherent his riches and power and that Jaime rejecting everything he planned was a major strike on his ego. With that said I mentioned from the beginning that Jaime's decision over this matter hardly means he was a failure in my opinion. He is a failure because he is called Kingslayer for having murdered the first king he served, committed treason against the next one and plunged the realm in a war and finally is reduced to guarding his son, a bastard he can never acknowledge who should never be on the throne and whose kingship is a mockery of the very laws that guarantee Jaime's position in society. Jaime is trying his hardest not to be forever remembered as an oathbreaker and the Kingslayer but in the current state of things this still seems much more likely than Goldenhand the Just. With that said, Tywin still doesn't think a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard was a great achievement for his son seeing how he tried the best for having him resigned, how he was furious when Jaime joined the brotherhood in the first place and how Aerys used it to spite Tywin and finally how he disowned his son after Jaime refused to be anything else than Lord Commander.

 

If Tywin felt he had the same obligations his children had in his eyes he would have remarried and brought new alliances. He still thought he could have used his children/ tools to continue his legacy. Do you really think Tywin would be OK with Lancel or another one of his brother's or cousin's children inheriting Casterly Rock? Why he disowned Jaime over his refusal to marry? It was not a trivial thing for him. Tywin has a massive ego.

 

 

 

That just proves my point. He was disappointed that he played the fool, he encouraged him to be intelligent, he didnt want him to be a clown.

 

I'm not sure how anyone can read the above quote and come to the conclusion that Tywin did not want his son to be smart and learned.
 

 

He was not a great father, but he visited him on his sickbed, he went to war for him when he was captured, he provided for Tyrions lavish lifestyle, he made him his stand in Hand, he gave him a position on the Small Council, he tried to arrange great marriage matches for him and eventually got him to marry the possible heiress of the North.

 

He did not hate him as you suggest and did not discourage his intelligence.

 

How can you say he never had Faith in him, he made him the Hand. He offered him command positions in his army.

 

I'm sorry I can't give more examples before that as we never saw them interact before that.

 

No, it doesn't. It proves Tywin regarded Tyrion as a fool until this moment. If he bothered to have the minimal interest in his son's intellectual life he would know he was a scholar and well versed in lot of things, including politics. But, no. Only after years he recognized that he wasn't fit to wear a motley. Tyrion never reminisces about Tywin giving support him in anything. It was always about bringing him down. Tyrion remembers Gerion praising him for memorizing the seven wonders but not a mention about Tywin's approval is made. In fact, later on this happens:

 

Lord Tywin had put an end to that hope ten days before his dwarf son’s sixteenth nameday, when Tyrion asked to tour the Nine Free Cities, as his uncles had done at that same age. “My brothers could be relied upon to bring no shame upon House Lannister,” his father had replied. “Neither ever wed a whore.” And when Tyrion had reminded him that in ten days he would be a man grown, free to travel where he wished, Lord Tywin had said, “No man is free. Only children and fools think elsewise. Go, by all means. Wear motley and stand upon your head to amuse the spice lords and the cheese kings. Just see that you pay your own way and put aside any thoughts of returning.” At that the boy’s defiance had crumbled.

 

 

Is that encouraging his son to seek knowledge?

 

Later he gives Tyrion an occupation, a rather shitty one. Reminds me a bit of Roose giving Reek as a present to Ramsay and his mother.

 

“If it is useful occupation you require, useful occupation you shall have,” his father then said. So to mark his manhood, Tyrion was given charge of all the drains and cisterns within Casterly Rock. Perhaps he hoped I’d fall into one. But Tywin had been disappointed in that. The drains never drained half so well as when he had charge of them.

 

Perhaps he hoped I’d fall into one. I wonder how he got this notion...

 

 

LOL

He did not hate him? He spent half a year without speaking to Genna after she said Tyrion was more like him that Jaime.

When you have a conversation like that with your son, do you think there is some level of affection involved in their relationship?

 

Lord Tywin’s eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. “Casterly Rock,” he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, “Never.”
The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.
I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I must always have known. “Why?” he made himself ask, though he knew he would rue the question.
“You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.”

 

Sure, that doesn't show hate at all.

 

Do you need more proof than that?

 

But, of course, Hoster didn't attend two of Walder's wedding and gave him a nickname. That proves Hoster treated his bannerman like shit. Or maybe it's just that you like Walder and Tywin and can't have a unbiased opinion about them.

 

 

Yes, he recognized Tyrion has a low cunning later on and he keeps him in a powerful position while still calling him a fool and a person who brought shame to house Lannister in occasions.

 

I never said he wanted Tyrion to act like a fool. That would ridicule house Lannister and himself in the eyes of others and his ego can't afford that. Still, it's clear he was simultaneously neglectful and abusive in his relationship with Tyrion and never valued his intellect until very later on. Of course later he still took the time to throw a spectacular pile of insults on Tyrion that you can check above. And before he put Tyrion is a ridiculous dangerous situation during the battle of the Green Fork because he would not share his battle plans with a person who associates with savages.

 

Do you think Tyrion's resentment is gratuitous?

 

And LOL!

He was not "a very great father". Are you kidding me? A father who put his son through a situation where he is sexually and emotionally abused while torturing his wife in a horrifying fashion is not great? Tell me about euphemism! He is one of the worst fathers depicted in the story. It's mind boggling actually.

 

And you say we have no idea how they interacted before that scene in AGOT? Well, that should give you a pretty clear picture.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Yes, Tywin was impressive in some ways. He was intelligent, diligent and hardworking, a good politician and hellbent on having control over everything, which meant that under his rule house Lannister rose in station. He was also a dismally cruel man, a petty, bitter person, a moral coward whose elitism and brutal methods exceeded by far the norm among the nobles of his times. He focused on getting his children, specially Cersei and Jaime, powerful position because that was what he saw them primarily, tools to his own goals, but his neglect of giving them a moral guidance and genuine affection helped to turn them into the messy, reviled creatures they are now. So that is Tywin. A despicable person who was also capable of acquiring wealth and power. You can be a failure as a father and as a human being while still being wealthy and powerful.

 

Well done, you have acknowledged that he was successful. In Westeros he is regarded as a success. All the other crap has little bearing on that.

 

 

That doesn't make Cersei's achievements really impressive. She got a small council after she murdered the king and ruled through his children. When Tommen wants to exercise his authority she bullies him. That is her approach. Make sure people fear her and use daddy's influence to fulfill her desires. Once daddy is dead she goes on to screw everything for her family.

They are impressive. Cat, Robb and Sansa all speak of Queenhood as something to be impressed by. You might not be impressed with it but in universe they consider it to be.

 

First woman to actually name her own Small Council, it is impressive. First Queen Regent to rule by herself. That too is impressive. She is breaking through the Westeros glass ceiling, an inspiration for the women of the Westeros that they too can rule their own destinies. Cersei didn't like an abusive King so got rid of him.

 

Compare that to Queen Alysanne, the example you refused to acknowledge as a major counterpoint for Cersei. The good queen changed paradigms, showed true competency and compassion and actually did good to the people of the realm.

 

eh? What kind of crap strawmanning is this? Alysanne to was impressive. There can be more than one successful Queen you know, and they dont have to have the exact same reasons for their success.

 

 

 

 

Littlefinger has an interesting take on Cersei. He is a liar but he has no reason to lie in this occasion and his analysis is quite precise.
 

 
 Pointless debating this one then if you are calling your own source a liar. Or are you willing to believe liars if it fits your own agenda.
 

I'm not ignoring my previous argument. I never said Tywin didn't want other Lannister's as partners in life. I said he as the leader of his house and older brother wanted one of his sons to inherent his riches and power and that Jaime rejecting everything he planned was a major strike on his ego. With that said I mentioned from the beginning that Jaime's decision over this matter hardly means he was a failure in my opinion. He is a failure because he is called Kingslayer for having murdered the first king he served, committed treason against the next one and plunged the realm in a war and finally is reduced to guarding his son, a bastard he can never acknowledge who should never be on the throne and whose kingship is a mockery of the very laws that guarantee Jaime's position in society. Jaime is trying his hardest not to be forever remembered as an oathbreaker and the Kingslayer but in the current state of things this still seems much more likely than Goldenhand the Just. With that said, Tywin still doesn't think a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard was a great achievement for his son seeing how he tried the best for having him resigned, how he was furious when Jaime joined the brotherhood in the first place and how Aerys used it to spite Tywin and finally how he disowned his son after Jaime refused to be anything else than Lord Commander.

Yes, your opinion. Pointless reading any more of this paragraph. 

 

Jaime rose to become Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. In Westeros that is considered a success. Barristan, Hightower, Aemon Targaryne Ryam Redwyne are all considered great men partly because they were the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

 

In Westeros being Lord Commander is something young boys aspire to, Jaime became it.
 

If Tywin felt he had the same obligations his children had in his eyes he would have remarried and brought new alliances. He still thought he could have used his children/ tools to continue his legacy. Do you really think Tywin would be OK with Lancel or another one of his brother's or cousin's children inheriting Casterly Rock? Why he disowned Jaime over his refusal to marry? It was not a trivial thing for him. Tywin has a massive ego.

Yes, he would be fine with it. They are Lannisters after all.
 

 
 

No, it doesn't. It proves Tywin regarded Tyrion as a fool until this moment. If he bothered to have the minimal interest in his son's intellectual life he would know he was a scholar and well versed in lot of things, including politics. But, no. Only after years he recognized that he wasn't fit to wear a motley. Tyrion never reminisces about Tywin giving support him in anything. It was always about bringing him down. Tyrion remembers Gerion praising him for memorizing the seven wonders but not a mention about Tywin's approval is made. In fact, later on this happens:

 

It proves no such thing.
 

 

Lord Tywin had put an end to that hope ten days before his dwarf son’s sixteenth nameday, when Tyrion asked to tour the Nine Free Cities, as his uncles had done at that same age. “My brothers could be relied upon to bring no shame upon House Lannister,” his father had replied. “Neither ever wed a whore.” And when Tyrion had reminded him that in ten days he would be a man grown, free to travel where he wished, Lord Tywin had said, “No man is free. Only children and fools think elsewise. Go, by all means. Wear motley and stand upon your head to amuse the spice lords and the cheese kings. Just see that you pay your own way and put aside any thoughts of returning.” At that the boy’s defiance had crumbled.
 
 
Is that encouraging his son to seek knowledge?

How is it discouraging? Tyrions uncle got lost and is likely dead because of his trip to Essos. Tywin obvioulsy loves Tyrion very much and did not want him to share his uncles fate.

 

Boom! Tywin did a great thing looking out for Tyrions safety and you and Tyrion are trying to twist it to make him look bad. Pretty low!
 

 

Later he gives Tyrion an occupation, a rather shitty one. Reminds me a bit of Roose giving Reek as a present to Ramsay and his mother.
 
“If it is useful occupation you require, useful occupation you shall have,” his father then said. So to mark his manhood, Tyrion was given charge of all the drains and cisterns within Casterly Rock. Perhaps he hoped I’d fall into one. But Tywin had been disappointed in that. The drains never drained half so well as when he had charge of them.
 

Do you think Tyrion was cleaning the gutters himself? Of Casterly Rock, the second biggest castle in Westeros. No, he was in charge of the servants.

 

This was a good thing, while other nobles were sent away to squire and serve Knights Tyrion, for reasons Tywin had no control over, could not do that. Tywin instead gave his teenage son some responsibility.

 

It is amazing how some of the Tywin haters will try and twist everything around.

 

He did not hate him? He never spoke to Genna again after she said Tyrion was more like him that Jaime.

You are mistaken. 6 months, and considering it is medieval times not speaking to someone for 6 moths is not that shocking as they don't have mobiles.

 

When you have a conversation like that with your son, do you think there is some level of affection involved in their relationship?

There is more context to that conversation. Everyone focuses on that but love to miss this part out.

 

 

"Your sister told me of your threats against my grandsons." Lord Tywin's voice was colder than ice. "Did she lie?"

Tyrion would not deny it. "I made threats, yes. To keep Alayaya safe. So the Kettleblacks would not misuse her."

"To save a whore's virtue, you threatened your own House, your own kin? Is that the way of it?"

 

Tywin had just found out that Tyrion was making threats to kill his grandchildren over the life of a whore. of course he is angry. This is the angriest we see Tywin being, and for good reason. Is it wrong to get upset with your son when you have found out he has threatened to kill your grandchildren?

 

 

 

Do you need more proof than that?

 

Yeah, as you ignored the other parts of the conversation and the very understandable reasons why Tywin is pissed off.

 

But, of course, Hoster didn't attend two of Walder's wedding and gave him a nickname. That proves Hoster treated his bannerman like shit. Or maybe it's just that you like Walder and Tywin and can't have a unbiased opinion about them.

I don't particularly like Walder, though I find the Freys the most interesting House in the series. Both Hoster and Walder had a poor relation with each other, it could have backfired on either of them as it could just as easily being the Freys who needed the Tullys support.

 

Yes, he recognized Tyrion has a low cunning later on and he keeps him in a powerful position while still calling him a fool and a person who brought shame to house Lannister in occasions.

Well shit, Tyrion did bring shame of House Lannister.

 

But the fact remains he valued his son and gave him opportunities that he would never have given him if he was not his son.

 

 And before he put Tyrion is a ridiculous dangerous situation during the battle of the Green Fork

No he didn't. Huge misconception here. Tywin gave Tyrion other, less dangerous, assignments and he turned them down. it was the Mountain Men who wanted him with them and he still gave Tyrion an opportunity to have a safer role in the battle.

 

Do you think Tyrion's resentment is gratuitous?

A little. It is like Arianne who is convinced her father hates her and is out to get her. Everything that Tywin does Tyrion takes it as an insult yet not everything is meant as one.  Some of things Tywin does for him are actually good for him (some very, very shitty) yet he looks for the negatives or tries to turn it into a punishemnt.

 

As for their discourse, it is very give and take. Tyrion is probably the only man in Westeros who Tywin lets openly mock him.

 

And LOL!
He was not "a very great father". Are you kidding me? A father who put his son through a situation where he is sexually and emotionally abused while torturing his wife in a horrifying fashion is not great? Tell me about euphemism! He is one of the worst fathers depicted in the story. It's mind boggling actually.

 meh. It was a reprehensible act, but she was never really his wife.  She was just a poor girl too scared to say 'no' to the son of Tywin Lannister.

 

 

And you say we have no idea how they interacted before that scene in AGOT? Well, that should give you a pretty clear picture.

 

eh. That is the first chapter we seen Tywin. How would that make a clear picture.

 

Look forward to your retort :drool:

[Dofs]

 

 Why he disowned Jaime over his refusal to marry? 

Just want to point out that Tywin never disowned Jaime. He was angry with him and did tell "you are not my son" but he didn't actually mean it. He then later wanted to make up with his son and gave him the valyrian sword that was supposed to become a valyrian sword of House Lannister.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

 

1. Well done, you have acknowledged that he was successful. In Westeros he is regarded as a success. All the other crap has little bearing on that.

 

 

2. They are impressive. Cat, Robb and Sansa all speak of Queenhood as something to be impressed by. You might not be impressed with it but in universe they consider it to be.

 

First woman to actually name her own Small Council, it is impressive. First Queen Regent to rule by herself. That too is impressive. She is breaking through the Westeros glass ceiling, an inspiration for the women of the Westeros that they too can rule their own destinies. Cersei didn't like an abusive King so got rid of him.

 

 

3. eh? What kind of crap strawmanning is this? Alysanne to was impressive. There can be more than one successful Queen you know, and they dont have to have the exact same reasons for their success.

 

 

 

 

 
4. Pointless debating this one then if you are calling your own source a liar. Or are you willing to believe liars if it fits your own agenda.
 

5. Yes, your opinion. Pointless reading any more of this paragraph. 

 

6. Jaime rose to become Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. In Westeros that is considered a success. Barristan, Hightower, Aemon Targaryne Ryam Redwyne are all considered great men partly because they were the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

 

In Westeros being Lord Commander is something young boys aspire to, Jaime became it.
 

7. Yes, he would be fine with it. They are Lannisters after all.
 

 
 

 

8. It proves no such thing.
 

 

9. How is it discouraging? Tyrions uncle got lost and is likely dead because of his trip to Essos. Tywin obvioulsy loves Tyrion very much and did not want him to share his uncles fate.

 

Boom! Tywin did a great thing looking out for Tyrions safety and you and Tyrion are trying to twist it to make him look bad. Pretty low!
 

 

10. Do you think Tyrion was cleaning the gutters himself? Of Casterly Rock, the second biggest castle in Westeros. No, he was in charge of the servants.

 

This was a good thing, while other nobles were sent away to squire and serve Knights Tyrion, for reasons Tywin had no control over, could not do that. Tywin instead gave his teenage son some responsibility.

 

It is amazing how some of the Tywin haters will try and twist everything around.

 

11. You are mistaken. 6 months, and considering it is medieval times not speaking to someone for 6 moths is not that shocking as they don't have mobiles.

 

12. There is more context to that conversation. Everyone focuses on that but love to miss this part out.

 

 

"Your sister told me of your threats against my grandsons." Lord Tywin's voice was colder than ice. "Did she lie?"

Tyrion would not deny it. "I made threats, yes. To keep Alayaya safe. So the Kettleblacks would not misuse her."

"To save a whore's virtue, you threatened your own House, your own kin? Is that the way of it?"

 

Tywin had just found out that Tyrion was making threats to kill his grandchildren over the life of a whore. of course he is angry. This is the angriest we see Tywin being, and for good reason. Is it wrong to get upset with your son when you have found out he has threatened to kill your grandchildren?

 

 

 

 

Yeah, as you ignored the other parts of the conversation and the very understandable reasons why Tywin is pissed off.

 

13. I don't particularly like Walder, though I find the Freys the most interesting House in the series. Both Hoster and Walder had a poor relation with each other, it could have backfired on either of them as it could just as easily being the Freys who needed the Tullys support.

 

14. Well shit, Tyrion did bring shame of House Lannister.

 

But the fact remains he valued his son and gave him opportunities that he would never have given him if he was not his son.

 

15. No he didn't. Huge misconception here. Tywin gave Tyrion other, less dangerous, assignments and he turned them down. it was the Mountain Men who wanted him with them and he still gave Tyrion an opportunity to have a safer role in the battle.

 

16. A little. It is like Arianne who is convinced her father hates her and is out to get her. Everything that Tywin does Tyrion takes it as an insult yet not everything is meant as one.  Some of things Tywin does for him are actually good for him (some very, very shitty) yet he looks for the negatives or tries to turn it into a punishemnt.

 

As for their discourse, it is very give and take. Tyrion is probably the only man in Westeros who Tywin lets openly mock him.

 

 

17. meh. It was a reprehensible act, but she was never really his wife.  She was just a poor girl too scared to say 'no' to the son of Tywin Lannister.

 

 

 

18. eh. That is the first chapter we seen Tywin. How would that make a clear picture.

 

Look forward to your retort :drool:

 

1. I beg to differ. But if you are not going to address my points no reason to discuss it.

 

2. Yes, Cersei is ruling her own destiny, sure. It's not like her stupid mistakes are paving the way exactly like instigators like Varys and Littlefinger want. It's not like Genna, a woman who acquired influence herself, is shocked with her blunders or Kevan calls her "soiled goods" after the Walk or Jaime compares her to Aerys. And these are her allies. She is an inspiration? What evidence do you have that women in Westeros regard her as an inspiration? Do you have any quote to demonstrate that? Cersei didn't like an abusive king so she got rid of him? Is that your take on the event? According to you all that matters to establish the truth of something in the story is how the people of Westeros regard it. Well, the people in Westeros calls what she did High Treason, punished by death, so doesn't matter how much you shrug it off here and in other threads, according to your own logic, your opinion here is pure crap.

 

3. Strawmanning? Where? I said you denied Queen Alysanne as a counterpoint for Cersei. You did. in your mind they are both successful. I pondered how she was able to do something significant, visionary and beneficial to society, a mark of true success in my opinion, unlike Cersei.

 

4. I'm willing to believe liars when they give accurate analysis of someone in a situation when they have no reason to lie, in a way that suits their modus operandus to a T. Do you deny Littlefinger is a liar when it fits him? You also used his opinion as valid when discussing Eddard's responsibility in starting the war in other threads. However in that situation he had every reason to lie because he would throw Ned under the bus soon. He had no cause to lie about his opinion on Cersei's merits in front of Sansa.

 

5. I guess there is no point in discussing then if you think you are so enlightened that you own the truth and everything you type is a fact and not your opinion.

 

6. Any of these people committed incest, high treason, killed their king and are reviled by a lot of people in Westeros? Success is not only about the position you get, it's about what you do once you get there. Jaime screwed up. As a Kingsguard, he is the ultimate failure: he killed the king he was sworn to protect and betrayed the other one. He also failed to warn anyone about the wildfire. Not to mention the other things I mentioned earlier.

 

7. Why did he get so angry at Jaime regarding his choices then? To say "you are not my son" is not something a father brushes off some hours later.

 

8. ...

 

9. Tyrions uncle got lost and is likely dead because of his trip to find Valyria. A suicide mission. Huge difference between Valyria and the Free Cities. It is amazing how you will try and twist everything around to make Tywin look good.

 

10. When did I say he would clean the gutters himself? Do you have any evidence except your own bias that being in charge of cisterns was a suitable assignment for a noble child, akin to squiring?

 

11. Yes, I was mistaken, I searched and edited my post before you answered it. You probably knew it because I only added the part about Queen Alysanne much later. Maybe you didn't. It doesn't matter. All you did was to dodge the bullet and not address the actual point. The fact is: Tywin was angry with his sister over that commentary.

 

12. So why didn't he address these issues during his shitstorm instead of focusing on accusing Tyrion of killing his mother and being an ill formed creature, among others hateful things? And why didn't he say that after Tyrion admitted he did make the threats but only after he asked about Casterly Rock? Because Tywin has an overwhelming pride and sees Tyrion as a mockery from the Gods towards him. Being pissed off is one thing. Saying hateful stuff like this to your son is completely different. It shows you despise your son.

 

13. Do you have any evidence Hoster wouldn't help Walder if he needed his liege lord? If he was still sane and active and not in his deathbed?

 

14. So after his completely over the top and disgusting reaction do you think he still has the right to throw it in Tyrion's face years later? It hurts a lord's pride for sure, but if an already betrothed prince (Duncan) could get his way and marry a peasant (Jenny of Oldstones) defying his father, the king (Aegon), and basically ruining his plans to improve the smallfolk's lives, why couldn't Tywin simply null the marriage or find a more diplomatic solution? It is amazing how you will try and twist everything around to make Tywin look good.

 

15. The least he could do was share his battle plans with him. It was sheer luck Tyrion didn't die in that battle.

 

16. Doran never abused Arianne and he had a very good reason to be distant and not sharing his plans. Tywin has no such carefully hidden plot to justify his treatment of Tyrion.

 

17. "meh"? Are you trivializing child abuse now because you think Tysha wasn't truly his wife? That is a new low. Also I love how you acknowledge Robert was abusive to the point you don't think it was a big deal Cersei murdering him but you merely call Tywin's depraved act "reprehensible". It is amazing how you will try and twist everything around to make Tywin look good.

 

18. By "that" I meant all the quotes I gave of past interactions between Tyrion and Tywin that you denied existed and now found a way to twist to further your agenda. It's pointless arguing with you.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2. Yes, Cersei is ruling her own destiny, sure. It's not like her stupid mistakes are paving the way exactly like instigators like Varys and Littlefinger want. It's not like Genna, a woman who acquired influence herself, is shocked with her blunders or Kevan calls her "soiled goods" after the Walk or Jaime compares her to Aerys. And these are her allies. She is an inspiration? What evidence do you have that women in Westeros regard her as an inspiration? Do you have any quote to demonstrate that? Cersei didn't like an abusive king so she got rid of him? Is that your take on the event? According to you all that matters to establish the truth of something in the story is how the people of Westeros regard it. Well, the people in Westeros calls what she did High Treason, punished by death, so doesn't matter how much you shrug it off here and in other threads, according to your own logic, your opinion here is pure crap.

Cool. glad we agree, I did you a favour and edited the rest of the superfluous paragraph.

 

In Westeros becoming Queen is seen as an achievement.
 

3. Strawmanning? Where? I said you denied Queen Alysanne as a counterpoint for Cersei. You did. in your mind they are both successful. I pondered how she was able to do something significant, visionary and beneficial to society, a mark of true success in my opinion, unlike Cersei.

But I didnt deny it. Show me the post where I disregarded that impressive woman's achievements? It is you who tried to write them off simply because she was chosen to be Queen by who she was related to, her brother.  Pretty disrespectful IMHO, but each to their own I guess.
 

4. I'm willing to believe liars when they give accurate analysis of someone in a situation when they have no reason to lie,

 

But he does have a reason to lie. He is trying to get in Sana's pants and knows that Sansa hates Cersei. Talking smack about Cersei is only going to help him bond with her.

 

 

And of course you are willing to believe a self confessed liar when they say something you are desperate to believe, Ned was the same.
 

5. I guess there is no point in discussing then if you think you are so enlightened that you own the truth and everything you type is a fact and not your opinion.

 

Well yeah, I'm referring to what the people of Westeros believe.  Robb didnt care that Jeyne Westerling was Queen during one of worst periods in Westeros history, that she was one of multiple Queens that disrespected Westeros religion or that she had no control over the kingdom. He just cared that she was a Queen.

 

Cat does not care that Sansa becoming Queen down to Neds relationship with the King, she is just excited and proud that her daughter would be Queen. Same With Sansa and her excitement.

 

The people of Westeros think the nobles are genuinely better than them, and that royalty are even better. By there standards she was successful.

 

6. Any of these people committed incest, high treason, killed their king and are reviled by a lot of people in Westeros?

 

Aemon certainly did the first two, still regarded as one of the greatest, if not the greatest members of the Kingsguard.

 

Kids in Westeros dream of becoming Kingsguard members.

 

7. Why did he get so angry at Jaime regarding his choices then? To say "you are not my son" is not something a father brushes off some hours later.

One conversation. Geez!

 

No one is denying that Jaime was his first choice, but that does not mean that it was Jaime or NO one. He is for House Lannister, he was not starting his own empire but continuing one.
 

9. Tyrions uncle got lost and is likely dead because of his trip to find Valyria. A suicide mission. Huge difference between Valyria and the Free Cities.

Gerion was last seen in Volantis, a free city. Tywin was just looking out for the safety of his youngest son. Truly a caring, touching moment. Reminds me of Liam Neeson in Taken, if only he told his daughter that she had to stay in America rather than go to unstable France she would have been a hell of a lot safer.
 

10. When did I say he would clean the gutters himself? Do you have any evidence except your own bias that being in charge of cisterns was a suitable assignment for a noble child, akin to squiring?

It is better than squiring. Squires were treated pretty poorly, just look at how Robert treated his.
 

11. Yes, I was mistaken, I searched and edited my post before you answered it. You probably knew it because I only added the part about Queen Alysanne much later. Maybe you didn't. It doesn't matter. All you did was to dodge the bullet and not address the actual point. The fact is: Tywin was angry with his sister over that commentary.

Come on, you got something horrendously wrong. Sure, he was angry, that does not mean he hates him, just that he was disappointed in the son who drunk and whored his way around the realm.
 

12. So why didn't he address these issues during his shitstorm instead of focusing on accusing Tyrion of killing his mother and being an ill formed creature, among others hateful things

He did. It is in the same conversation. Tywin was justifiably angry and we all say things in the heat of the moment. It is a very human thing to do, GRRM's characters are not robots.
 

13. Do you have any evidence Hoster wouldn't help Walder if he needed his liege lord? If he was still sane and active and not in his deathbed?

Same reason he did not help his the Targs, He sold himself to the highest bidder (which is pretty common in Westeros).

14. So after his completely over the top and disgusting reaction do you think he still has the right to throw it in Tyrion's face years later? It hurts a lord's pride for sure, but if an already betrothed prince (Duncan) could get his way and marry a peasant (Jenny of Oldstones) defying his father, the king (Aegon), and basically ruining his plans to improve the smallfolk's lives, why couldn't Tywin simply null the marriage or find a more diplomatic solution? It is amazing how you will try and twist everything around to make Tywin look good.

Look what happened after Duncan married, Lord Baratheon declared war on the Crown.

 

And how am I trying to make Tywin look good? Do you not understand what reprehensible means? It was a disgusting act, that does not mean there is no context to the situation, doesn't justify it but explains it.

15. The least he could do was share his battle plans with him. It was sheer luck Tyrion didn't die in that battle.

No it wasnt. Tyrion had his own warriors who Tywin paid for, including Bronn, He also have him Podrick. Infact the one time he was in danger tehy were trying to capture him, not kill him.

 

The odds on him surviving were very, very strong.

 

Unless you mean that he was lucky to survive as anyone who participates in a battle is lucky to survive, then sure. That seems correct.
 

16. Doran never abused Arianne and he had a very good reason to be distant and not sharing his plans. Tywin has no such carefully hidden plot to justify his treatment of Tyrion.

 

And yet Arianne is convinced her father hates her. The same with Tyrion.
 

17. "meh"? Are you trivializing child abuse now because you think Tysha wasn't truly his wife? That is a new low. Also I love how you acknowledge Robert was abusive to the point you don't think it was a big deal Cersei murdering him but you merely call Tywin's depraved act "reprehensible". It is amazing how you will try and twist everything around to make Tywin look good.

 meh. If she was old enough to marry thane she wasnt really considered a child.

 

Disclaimer: No children were hurt while GRRM was writing his books.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Cool. glad we agree, I did you a favour and edited the rest of the superfluous paragraph.
 
In Westeros becoming Queen is seen as an achievement.
 
But I didnt deny it. Show me the post where I disregarded that impressive woman's achievements? It is you who tried to write them off simply because she was chosen to be Queen by who she was related to, her brother.  Pretty disrespectful IMHO, but each to their own I guess.
 
 
But he does have a reason to lie. He is trying to get in Sana's pants and knows that Sansa hates Cersei. Talking smack about Cersei is only going to help him bond with her.
 
 
And of course you are willing to believe a self confessed liar when they say something you are desperate to believe, Ned was the same.
 
 
Well yeah, I'm referring to what the people of Westeros believe.  Robb didnt care that Jeyne Westerling was Queen during one of worst periods in Westeros history, that she was one of multiple Queens that disrespected Westeros religion or that she had no control over the kingdom. He just cared that she was a Queen.
 
Cat does not care that Sansa becoming Queen down to Neds relationship with the King, she is just excited and proud that her daughter would be Queen. Same With Sansa and her excitement.
 
The people of Westeros think the nobles are genuinely better than them, and that royalty are even better. By there standards she was successful.

 
 
Aemon certainly did the first two, still regarded as one of the greatest, if not the greatest members of the Kingsguard.
 
Kids in Westeros dream of becoming Kingsguard members.

 
One conversation. Geez!
 
No one is denying that Jaime was his first choice, but that does not mean that it was Jaime or NO one. He is for House Lannister, he was not starting his own empire but continuing one.
 
Gerion was last seen in Volantis, a free city. Tywin was just looking out for the safety of his youngest son. Truly a caring, touching moment. Reminds me of Liam Neeson in Taken, if only he told his daughter that she had to stay in America rather than go to unstable France she would have been a hell of a lot safer.
 
It is better than squiring. Squires were treated pretty poorly, just look at how Robert treated his.
 
Come on, you got something horrendously wrong. Sure, he was angry, that does not mean he hates him, just that he was disappointed in the son who drunk and whored his way around the realm.
 
He did. It is in the same conversation. Tywin was justifiably angry and we all say things in the heat of the moment. It is a very human thing to do, GRRM's characters are not robots.
 
Same reason he did not help his the Targs, He sold himself to the highest bidder (which is pretty common in Westeros).

Look what happened after Duncan married, Lord Baratheon declared war on the Crown.
 
And how am I trying to make Tywin look good? Do you not understand what reprehensible means? It was a disgusting act, that does not mean there is no context to the situation, doesn't justify it but explains it.

No it wasnt. Tyrion had his own warriors who Tywin paid for, including Bronn, He also have him Podrick. Infact the one time he was in danger tehy were trying to capture him, not kill him.
 
The odds on him surviving were very, very strong.
 
Unless you mean that he was lucky to survive as anyone who participates in a battle is lucky to survive, then sure. That seems correct.
 
 
And yet Arianne is convinced her father hates her. The same with Tyrion.
 
 meh. If she was old enough to marry thane she wasnt really considered a child.
 
Disclaimer: No children were hurt while GRRM was writing his books.

So was tywins father a success?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

So was tywins father a success?

 

As a father? Sure.

 

As a Lord, not so much.

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
As a father? Sure.
 
As a Lord, not so much.

I was asking as a lord. So why is cersei a success and tytos not.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I was asking as a lord. So why is cersei a success and tytos not.

Mainly down to their respective sexes.

 

Pretty much every generation there is a male Ruler of the Westerlands and he is pretty much being judged against them, and frankly he comes up short. Men have it far easier than women when it comes to ruling, we see this in the bran chapters were he notices how though Sybil Glover has been left in charge of Deepwood Motte it is the Steward who is making the decisions, with how the rival Lords are swarming around Lady Hornwood after her husband and son are dead or in the chapters from Cat, Asha and even Arianne (in the more enlightened Dorne) on the limited position their sex usually has when it comes to ruling and being trusted to do so.

 

Cersei, despite being unhinged, is a trailblazer. No woman has had as much control over the realm as she has, no woman ruler has been able to create their own Small Council. In Westeros that is a pretty significant leap. Neither the Wright brothers or Alberto Santos-Dumont built the greatest flying machines but they got there first and are pioneers in their field. Cersei is something of  a pioneer, so judging her with Tytos is not really a fair comparison as men and women are treated vastly differently in Westeros. The odds of Cersei succeeding are pretty highly stacked against her.

 

 

I mean her Small Council is pretty mediocre, but she had little choice. Give up her rule and allow more competent men like Kevan to take over or persevere with weaker candidates who were willing to have a female tell them what to do.

 

And there are other differences, Tytos was just another Lannister Lord of the Westerlands, there have been hundreds before him. Cersei is one of a few non Targ rulers. Infact we can go even further, as Regent she is the first ruler of Westeros who has no affiliation with the Targaryens given that her children are bastards, that in itself is pretty monumental.

 

 

If she was born with a penis I would judge her differently, but then she would be treated differently in Westeros. It is a sexist society which limits women's achievements.  At no point would Cat show the same level of excitement at Robb marring a Princess, they'd expect him to do that and more whereas the glass ceiling for women is social status. The conversation between Ned and Arya shows the difference.

 

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

 

Women were simply not expected to rule, to achieve,

[Bobby b's bobby]

Mainly down to their respective sexes.
 
Pretty much every generation there is a male Ruler of the Westerlands and he is pretty much being judged against them, and frankly he comes up short. Men have it far easier than women when it comes to ruling, we see this in the bran chapters were he notices how though Sybil Glover has been left in charge of Deepwood Motte it is the Steward who is making the decisions, with how the rival Lords are swarming around Lady Hornwood after her husband and son are dead or in the chapters from Cat, Asha and even Arianne (in the more enlightened Dorne) on the limited position their sex usually has when it comes to ruling and being trusted to do so.
 
Cersei, despite being unhinged, is a trailblazer. No woman has had as much control over the realm as she has, no woman ruler has been able to create their own Small Council. In Westeros that is a pretty significant leap. Neither the Wright brothers or Alberto Santos-Dumont built the greatest flying machines but they got there first and are pioneers in their field. Cersei is something of  a pioneer, so judging her with Tytos is not really a fair comparison as men and women are treated vastly differently in Westeros. The odds of Cersei succeeding are pretty highly stacked against her.
 
 
I mean her Small Council is pretty mediocre, but she had little choice. Give up her rule and allow more competent men like Kevan to take over or persevere with weaker candidates who were willing to have a female tell them what to do.
 
And there are other differences, Tytos was just another Lannister Lord of the Westerlands, there have been hundreds before him. Cersei is one of a few non Targ rulers. Infact we can go even further, as Regent she is the first ruler of Westeros who has no affiliation with the Targaryens given that her children are bastards, that in itself is pretty monumental.
 
 
If she was born with a penis I would judge her differently, but then she would be treated differently in Westeros. It is a sexist society which limits women's achievements.  At no point would Cat show the same level of excitement at Robb marring a Princess, they'd expect him to do that and more whereas the glass ceiling for women is social status. The conversation between Ned and Arya shows the difference.
 
Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"
"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."
 
Women were simply not expected to rule, to achieve,

Okay it's impressive to get the power cersei did as a woman but with what she did with it I can't call her successful.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Okay it's impressive to get the power cersei did as a woman but with what she did with it I can't call her successful.

 

Someone remarks this about Cersei, I believe. She's good at attaining power but terrible at wielding it

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
Someone remarks this about Cersei, I believe. She's good at attaining power but terrible at wielding it

Think it was Tyrion or Jaime I vaguely remember it.

Littlefinger says she wants power but doesn't know what to do with it once she gets it and Jaime that she doesn't lack for wits but had no patience or judgement.

[Dofs]

 

Someone remarks this about Cersei, I believe. She's good at attaining power but terrible at wielding it

Nobody said that. The closest was Littlefinger about wanting power but not knowing what to do with it.

 

Pretty much every generation there is a male Ruler of the Westerlands and he is pretty much being judged against them, and frankly he comes up short. Men have it far easier than women when it comes to ruling, we see this in the bran chapters were he notices how though Sybil Glover has been left in charge of Deepwood Motte it is the Steward who is making the decisions, with how the rival Lords are swarming around Lady Hornwood after her husband and son are dead or in the chapters from Cat, Asha and even Arianne (in the more enlightened Dorne) on the limited position their sex usually has when it comes to ruling and being trusted to do so.

 

Cersei, despite being unhinged, is a trailblazer. No woman has had as much control over the realm as she has, no woman ruler has been able to create their own Small Council. In Westeros that is a pretty significant leap. Neither the Wright brothers or Alberto Santos-Dumont built the greatest flying machines but they got there first and are pioneers in their field. Cersei is something of  a pioneer, so judging her with Tytos is not really a fair comparison as men and women are treated vastly differently in Westeros. The odds of Cersei succeeding are pretty highly stacked against her.

 

 

I mean her Small Council is pretty mediocre, but she had little choice. Give up her rule and allow more competent men like Kevan to take over or persevere with weaker candidates who were willing to have a female tell them what to do.

 

And there are other differences, Tytos was just another Lannister Lord of the Westerlands, there have been hundreds before him. Cersei is one of a few non Targ rulers. Infact we can go even further, as Regent she is the first ruler of Westeros who has no affiliation with the Targaryens given that her children are bastards, that in itself is pretty monumental.

 

 

If she was born with a penis I would judge her differently, but then she would be treated differently in Westeros. It is a sexist society which limits women's achievements.  At no point would Cat show the same level of excitement at Robb marring a Princess, they'd expect him to do that and more whereas the glass ceiling for women is social status. The conversation between Ned and Arya shows the difference.

 

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

 

Women were simply not expected to rule, to achieve,

 

I just don't get your logic at how you can call Cersei ruling Westeros as her achievement, when this power was given to her.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

 

:bang: Should I even bother with this one? Nope.

 

Yep, you should.

 

Unless you are completely sure that your own worldview is the 100% correct one.

 

If that's not the case (and I hope the hell that it isn't) then you should actively seek out those whose opinions are different than yours and engage them in intelligent conversation.