U.S. Politics - the pre-pre-pre-pre Primary season edition

[TerraPrime]

Please continue. 

[Shryke]

From the end of that Clinton/BLM meetup:

Clinton: No, look. I don’t believe you change hearts. I believe you change laws, you change allocation of resources, you change the way systems operate. You're not going to change every heart. You're not. But at the end of the day, we could do a whole lot to change some hearts and change some systems and create more opportunities for people who deserve to have them, to live up to their own God-given potential. To live safely, without fear of violence in their own communities. To have a decent school, to have a decent house, to have a decent future.

 

So we can do it one of many ways. You know, you can keep the movement going which you have started, and through it, you may actually change some hearts. But if that’s all that happens, we’ll be back here in 10 years having the same conversation. Because we will not have all of the changes that you deserve to see happen in your lifetime because of your willingness to get out there and talk about this.

 

Is good stuff.

[aceluby]

I suppose I'm saying, if many black voters like the Clintons despite their policies, I don't see it as the place of others to tell them how they should feel. (That certainly lines up with your point about not always voting from self-interest, with which I agree.)

 

 

But the point that was trying to be made, is that there are other candidates who have better policies than the Clinton's.  It's not about 'how they should feel', but actually taking a look at what each candidate has actually done, and not what they are perceived to be.

[aceluby]

 

From the end of that Clinton/BLM meetup:

Is good stuff.

 

 

Except that nobody has actual laws they want to change or policies they want to push.  The only reason she knows this will come back in x amount of years is because these are the same issues going on in the 90's that were never actually dealt with.

 

But yeah... great stuff.  Those Clinton's really have that minority issue vote down.  

[Guest]

I'm starting to think that the Clintons are so calculating that they're like "Whatevs, we'll beat the GOP nominee in the electoral college no matter what, so we're above this."

 

They might be right.

 

ETA:  By the way, I am absolutely shocked that the Lolita Express stuff has not picked up more, and I very much fear that the opposition will unload it if and when Clinton wins the nomination.  I sure hope I'm wrong, but wtf Dems...

 

We're all going to miss Obama when he's gone.  One of the most magnificent and decent human beings to have ever lived.  Accuse me of hyperbole; i don't care.

[Shryke]

But the point that was trying to be made, is that there are other candidates who have better policies than the Clinton's.  It's not about 'how they should feel', but actually taking a look at what each candidate has actually done, and not what they are perceived to be.

 

Well, what Clinton (and the Clintons over a long period of time) have done is treat black voters as a group worthy of respect and being listened to and directly addressed and discussed their issues. Rather then always deflecting the conversation back to ones own personal economic issues as Sanders was doing until very recently. 

 

If you wanna talk about what each candidate has actually done, then you have to talk about engagement and communication.

[Shryke]

Except that nobody has actual laws they want to change or policies they want to push.  The only reason she knows this will come back in x amount of years is because these are the same issues going on in the 90's that were never actually dealt with.

 

But yeah... great stuff.  Those Clinton's really have that minority issue vote down.  

 

I ... what? Did you even read what she said? This post makes no sense as a response to that.

 

Her whole point is that they should have laws they want to change or policies they want to push. She a politician, laws and policy are what she does. That's her job. Her whole point is that if your goal is "changing hearts" then you are only doing half-measures that won't lead to actual change. You need policies and laws you want changed.

 

And your second sentence is just a repeat of what she's saying, and yet somehow you treat it like it's an attack against her  because ... honestly, I don't know. You aren't making sense. Why do you think this says she doesn't get minority issues?

[The Marquis de Leech]

We're all going to miss Obama when he's gone.  One of the most magnificent and decent human beings to have ever lived.  Accuse me of hyperbole; i don't care.

 

Decent people have problems with power. Just ask Jimmy Carter.

[Biglose]

 

I ... what? Did you even read what she said? This post makes no sense as a response to that.

 

Her whole point is that they should have laws they want to change or policies they want to push. She a politician, laws and policy are what she does. That's her job. Her whole point is that if your goal is "changing hearts" then you are only doing half-measures that won't lead to actual change. You need policies and laws you want changed.

 

And your second sentence is just a repeat of what she's saying, and yet somehow you treat it like it's an attack against her  because ... honestly, I don't know. You aren't making sense. Why do you think this says she doesn't get minority issues?

I think aceluby point is, that it is quite obvious which laws have to be changed to some regard, and nobody says it.

First of all the privatisation of prisions needs to be undone.

Secondly police needs to be again financed by taxes and not by pulling over (predominantly black) motorists.

Then of course their would be minor changes like having officers only operate in pairs, to avoid dangerous situations in the first place, employing bodycams and so on.

 

And if you look at those points, they look closer to sanders than to clinton. Thats what I guess is acelubys point.

It is like calling the one guy on the republican side which does not want to totally gut planned parenthood the anti women guy.

[Shryke]

I think aceluby point is, that it is quite obvious which laws have to be changed to some regard, and nobody says it.

First of all the privatisation of prisions needs to be undone.

Secondly police needs to be again financed by taxes and not by pulling over (predominantly black) motorists.

Then of course their would be minor changes like having officers only operate in pairs, to avoid dangerous situations in the first place, employing bodycams and so on.

 

And if you look at those points, they look closer to sanders than to clinton. Thats what I guess is acelubys point.

It is like calling the one guy on the republican side which does not want to totally gut planned parenthood the anti women guy.

 

That does not seem to be acelubys point at all.

 

Nor does your point here seem relevant to the quote since the whole conversation is basically Clinton saying they need concrete policy proposals. It is not obvious which laws have to be changed since otherwise they would have just talked directly about that.

 

I also don't see how these look closer to Sanders then Clinton. And I've no idea what you think your planned parenthood analogy has to do with anything.

[TrackerNeil]

We're all going to miss Obama when he's gone.  One of the most magnificent and decent human beings to have ever lived.  Accuse me of hyperbole; i don't care.

 

I agree, and I'll see your hyperbole and raise you a sermon: I think that history will view Obama as a president as notable as Ronald Reagan. 

[Inigima]

I think Clinton's response was good but also nearly impossible to meet. How do you make policy proposals to address such a systemic problem? It's not just police abuse of authority or any other one thing. There are tendrils of the problem everywhere. Police abuse, hiring practices, redlining, it's everywhere and everything. I have no idea how to even begin to "solve" a problem like racism.

The police abuse issue is the most glaringly obvious, so maybe you start there. Police need to be held accountable, far more than they are. It's already illegal for cops to do the shit they're doing, of course -- the issue is enforcement. Maybe have the DOJ start stepping in when the police kill someone. Every time. If the DOJ is satisfied that the use of force (or whatever) was appropriate, great, we all move along. But maybe if we apply very strong scrutiny to *every* case, we start to address this issue.

[aceluby]

 

That does not seem to be acelubys point at all.

 

Nope, it was, just less snark :)

[Hayyoth]

I know it's from the Daily Mail but hey it's  as funny as fuck (and also apparently entirely accurate).

 

http://www.bostonnewstime.com/regional/116229-hillary-clinton-s-email-firm-platte-river-networks-was-run-from-a-loft-in-denver.html

 

The IT company Hilary Clinton chose to maintain her private email account was run from a loft apartment and its servers were housed in the bathroom closet, Daily Mail Online can reveal.

Daily Mail Online tracked down ex-employees of Platte River Networks in Denver, Colorado, who revealed the outfit's strong links to the Democratic Party but expressed shock that the 2016 presidential candidate chose the small private company for such a sensitive job.

One, Tera Dadiotis, called it 'a mom and pop shop' which was an excellent place to work, but hardly seemed likely to be used to secure state secrets. And Tom Welch, who helped found the company, confirmed the servers were in a bathroom closet.

 

For those of a less sensitive bent bathroom closet means right next to the shitter. It goes on

 

Speaking to Daily Mail Online at her home in Castle Rock, Colorado, Tera said: 'I think it's really bizarre, I don't know how that relationship evolved.

'At the time I worked for them they wouldn't have been equipped to work for Hilary Clinton because I don't think they had the resources, they were based out of a loft, so [it was] not very high security, we didn't even have an alarm.

 

So all those people worrying that the Russians and Chinese were happily hacking into Hillary's email can put their minds to rest.

 

Clinton's 'homebrew' computer system housed her emails while she was Secretary of State between 2009 and 2013. Platte River Networks provided its services in mid-2013 according to Barbara Wells, the company's lawyer.

In March Clinton said she wiped the server clean but experts say some of the more than 60,000 emails she deleted may be recoverable.

The server is now in the hands of the FBI who took it off Platte River Networks hands last Wednesday.

Four emails on the private server are said to have been 'classified' with two of them labeled 'top secret', the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee said on Tuesday. 

Up to 60 in all may have been found during further samples, it has been reported. Clinton has maintained nothing on her server was classified at the time she saw it.

 

It seems Hillary's is being brought down by her own cheapness. From the story it sounds like she was given a feebee by a FOB, the fact she was funneling top secret Fed Gov data through an unencrypted server next to a toilet wouldn't have bothered her in the least compared to saving a few bucks. Jeez they couldn't even wipe the server properly..

[aceluby]

Hayyoth, just let it go.  The only people that care about this are people who aren't going to vote for her anyway.  Instead of trying to pin a 'scandal' on her, you'd probably be better served analyzing her policies and proposals and discuss those intelligently instead.

 

What am I saying?  BENGHAZI!!!!!!!

[TrackerNeil]

I think Clinton's response was good but also nearly impossible to meet. How do you make policy proposals to address such a systemic problem? It's not just police abuse of authority or any other one thing. There are tendrils of the problem everywhere. Police abuse, hiring practices, redlining, it's everywhere and everything. I have no idea how to even begin to "solve" a problem like racism.

 

You break down the problem into its individual aspects, and then you craft policy solutions to each. It's often clunky and inelegant, and not always successful, but it's the way these things work. We've done it before so it's not impossible.

 

Edited to add: I don't expect activists to have a complete policy portfolio to present to Clinton, but that doesn't mean they can't have a thumbnail response like, "Are you prepared to support legislation that would require video recording of all police-citizen interactions?" or something like that. In no case, however, is it advisable to spend precious face-time with one of the most powerful people in the nation lecturing her about victim-blaming.

[awesome possum]

I think it's kind of cute that Republicans are so scared of Hillary Clinton that they cling to their scandals like toddlers clinging to their stuffies.  

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

The perspective differences about the email issues are interesting. A more right leaning board I frequent sees this as something that might sink Clinton. Here, it's a non-issue. I have no one I'm excited about for 2016 and as such this is interesting to watch from the "outside".

[Hayyoth]

 A more right leaning board

I also occasionally frequent the RevLeft forums. The Leninist vs Syndicalist smackdowns are epic viewing.

[TerraPrime]

I don't think the email issue is a non-issue. The susbtance of the complaint is, imo, not worthy of too much ink. That doesn't mean that it is not a problem for Clinton. It is a distraction and a piece of character assassination on a candidate who already has difficulty gaining traction with some swing voters due to other issues, like her ties to the corporate world, and her stance on war and military power. Elections are just about image as it is about substance, and sometimes it's almost all image. This email issue is an image issue, not a substance issue, but it is going to be an important issue nonetheless. We can only hope that the worst of the storm blows over by the time primary season is over. 

 

One thing in her favor is that Sanders runs a campaign on issues, so far, and has stayed his hands on these sorts of personality attacks.