MinDonner Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 So this happened about 5 mins from my house today. I was sort of watching from my garden, only not really cos there's a hill in the way, so I only get to see the planes that go up high or fly around a bit; I was good with that, lounging in a chair with a book. And this plane went up in the loop, and came down, and then nothing else happened for a while; I thought it must have just flown along the valley out of sight and that something quieter was happening now. And then an hour went by and the only things flying around were helicopters, and the road sounded suspiciously quiet but for the occasional siren, and I went to check the internet and found that this had happened. Don't even have an angle for the thread really. Some people on FB are saying "I hope they don't have any more airshows here!" and I don't think I agree, but this isn't even the first fatality I've seen at the town airshow and I haven't lived here THAT long. And the environmental cost of jet fuel yadda yadda yadda... is it just a frivolous thing to have stunt pilots flying dangerously obsolete machinery just for entertainment purposes? Really I'm just here to go "fuuuuuuuuuuuck" cos the whole thing has left me a bit shaken, but discuss if you have something to say about it? Eta: updated no of casualties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I don't have much to say other than I can't believe the pilot survived...RIP to the seven (?) people who died :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I've watched the video a number of times now. That's one of the more horrific ones that I've seen. I'm pretty amazed that the pilot survived, but if he recovers he's going to have an awful lot to live through. Very sad all around. Having said that, I don't think it merits banning airshows, any more than the fact that people are killed by fireworks merits banning fireworks. Airshows bring a huge amount of joy and wonder. Yes, they're dangerous, but lots of things in life are. We'll never completely eliminate that danger, although we can mitigate it. Perhaps there ought to be a higher floor for performing some of the more dangerous manoeuvres, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 This is really sad. :( It's pretty lucky more people were not killed or injured really. I agree with Ab and Min though, I don't think it warrants banning air shows (saying this as someone who doesn't particularly enjoy them myself), but perhaps there could be stricter regulations on what dangerous manoeuvres can be performed etc. anyway, damn, still very sad, and rather astounding that the pilot was not killed on impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 the pilot survived? wow. personally, i don't think these airshows should be held near populated areas. It's extreme arrogance/hubris to think something won't go wrong at some point. And really, what is the point of these shows? Yes, it's an exhibit of human ingenuity and skill, but the bottom line is profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 the pilot survived? wow. personally, i don't think these airshows should be held near populated areas. It's extreme arrogance/hubris to think something won't go wrong at some point. And really, what is the point of these shows? Yes, it's an exhibit of human ingenuity and skill, but the bottom line is profit. Welcome to Earth. :lol: I think there are two issues with not holding airshows near populated areas - Firstly that the entire point of the show is that people get to see it. The further away it is the fewer people are likely to see it. The crash today was on a road, so it could have happened anywhere, - itt didn't hit the actual town or anything. Even if you do move it to a remote area, once you have a crowd gathering to watch it you're immediately ending up with something of a populated area. Secondly, while holding air shows in remote areas is more feasible in somewhere like the US, Canada or even France, it's a far more difficult proposition in more densely populated countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Welcome to Earth. :lol: Tell that to the 7 people who left earth today. I don't see how entertainment trumps potential loss of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Tell that to the 7 people who left earth today. I don't see how entertainment trumps potential loss of life. I didn't say that it does. But condemning something just because it's for-profit seems a little naive. Personally, I think that everything is done for some kind of profit or another, even if not for money. People do things because they want to, and fulfilling that desire is a profit in itself. Condensing it down to whether entertainment trumps loss of life seems overly simplistic to me. There will always be dangerous forms of entertainment, from cycling, to racing, from sailing to diving, and from hiking to mountain climbing. All these activities can lead to loss of life, and that loss is not always confined to the competitors (though is usually is.) Would you prohibit any form of entertainment that could potentially lead to loss of life? Personally, I think it's better to treat this as it is - a relatively isolated tragedy - rather than an endemic problem that needs some sort of dramatic and overbearing response. We should mourn those who have lost their lives, and we should do our best to ensure these activities are carried out safely, but I don't think we need to overreact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I didn't say that it does. But condemning something just because it's for-profit seems a little naive. Until a for profit airshow results in the deaths of 7 people who didn't have anything to do with said airshow. People who were just going about their business when some asshole in a fighter jet decided to risk his and their lives in order to impress a couple of hundred people who paid money to see said jet do circles in the sky. but I don't think we need to overreact. The only people who get a say in that are those who live near/commute by areas where these airshows take place, i suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Until a for profit airshow results in the deaths of 7 people who didn't have anything to do with said airshow. People who were just going about their business when some asshole in a fighter jet decided to risk his and their lives in order to impress a couple of hundred people who paid money to see said jet do circles in the sky. but I don't think we need to overreact. The only people who get a say in that are those who live near/commute by areas where these airshows take place, i suppose. What about a for profit airline crash? Or a military plane? From what I understand, the pilot is a former RAF pilot, a current commercial pilot, and a very experienced aerobatics performer. I'm sure he's a perfectly nice guy and I'm sure he's horrified by what happened. It doesn't make him an asshole, by any means. Well, for what it's worth, I'm from a place where airshows take place annually and have both lived and commuted directly beneath the flightpath that the aircraft use to get from the airfield to the location of the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I'm sure he's a perfectly nice guy and I'm sure he's horrified by what happened. It doesn't make him an asshole, by any means. Right, he could be a really really great person. Or not. I have no idea, neither do you, and it doesn't matter. I see it as the equivalent of someone saying "hey im a fantastic human being, and an excellent driver, and im going to speed through this residential neighborhood while entertaining all the people who follow my dashcam on youtube. opps i just hit that guy crossing the street." Anyway, you live next to an air field and you have no issue with airshows. Great. If everyone else in your neighborhood agrees with you then i s'pose it isn't an issue...in your neighborhood. but that's just you and your neighborhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Right, he could be a really really great person. Or not. I have no idea, neither do you, and it doesn't matter. I see it as the equivalent of someone saying "hey im a fantastic human being, and an excellent driver, and im going to speed through this residential neighborhood while entertaining all the people who follow my dashcam on youtube. opps i just hit that guy crossing the street." I try not to assume the worst about people, as a general rule. I think you're making unfair comparisons, but that's your prerogative. Anyway, you live next to an air field and you have no issue with airshows. Great. If everyone else in your neighborhood agrees with you then i s'pose it isn't an issue...in your neighborhood. but that's just you and your neighborhood. Of course, my opinion doesn't outweigh those of others. I was merely pointing out that I am, as you say, one of "those who live near/commute by areas where these airshows take place," Having said that the attendance of the airshows here and around the country seem to indicate they're pretty popular. I've not personally heard a single person in my area suggest they have any concerns about it at all. Nor am I aware of any particular public antipathy towards airshows. I imagine that, if they were particularly unpopular, councils would reject them more frequently. Now, of course, that doesn't mean there aren't those opposed to them - you yourself are one example, it seems - and I wouldn't assume that my experiences are the same as everyone else's, but I don't get the impression that there is too much opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Now, of course, that doesn't mean there aren't those opposed to them - you yourself are one example, it seems - and I wouldn't assume that my experiences are the same as everyone else's, but I don't get the impression that there is too much opposition. I wouldn't say im "opposed" to them really, i just think they are about as silly as monster truck rallies... until they result in fatalities. In which case they should AT LEAST undergo heavy scrutiny and have their merits (which are beyond me, but w/e) weighed against the risk to those living or commuting through the neighboring areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I wouldn't say im "opposed" to them really, i just think they are about as silly as monster truck rallies... until they result in fatalities. In which case they should AT LEAST undergo heavy scrutiny and have their merits (which are beyond me, but w/e) weighed against the risk to those living or commuting through the neighboring areas. That's fair enough. I'm not saying that this should be ignored, by any means. There'll be an official investigation, and that will result in some safety recommendations. I generally think the risk is pretty low though, overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Eats No Peaches Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 :( Planning on going to an airshow on Friday actually. This hasn't put me off going, it's just I've never really considered the morality of having an airshow, but I will now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I used to live near a place with frequent airshows. There seemed to always be some accident happening. The biggest problem I saw with these shows apart from how ridiculously dangerous they are to everyone on the ground is that they are almost always billed as though attendance was a test of patriotism. If you want to appear to be a good patriot and you want to appear to support the troops, you better see the airshow, or at least act excited about it. There have been so many times people living near the show flight path have mentioned the annoyance of the noise from these shows and how they worry a plane will fall on their house and then shrug and say "but you gotta support the troops, right." I'm not sure if airshows in the US would be as well received if they were presented as what they are - dangerous daredevil stunts that routinely cost lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 It's possible that in that respect it's a cultural thing. I don't think there is any particular jingoism around it here. It's mainly "oh wow, look at the cool planes!" There is an element of nostalgic patriotism around the BoB Memorial Flight of course, but that's a pretty broadly shared sentiment in the UK. Other than that, the most patriotic part is the whole "Our aerobatics team is the best in the world." :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoë Sumra Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I wouldn't say im "opposed" to them really, i just think they are about as silly as monster truck rallies... until they result in fatalities. In which case they should AT LEAST undergo heavy scrutiny and have their merits (which are beyond me, but w/e) weighed against the risk to those living or commuting through the neighboring areas. Every time there's a serious incident like this, safety improves. There was an incident at, I think, this air show about 60 years ago when a plane fell apart over the audience. It led to increased safety. I'm sure that eventually we will get to the stage where the only risk is to the pilots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I used to live near a place with frequent airshows. There seemed to always be some accident happening. The biggest problem I saw with these shows apart from how ridiculously dangerous they are to everyone on the ground is that they are almost always billed as though attendance was a test of patriotism. If you want to appear to be a good patriot and you want to appear to support the troops, you better see the airshow, or at least act excited about it. There have been so many times people living near the show flight path have mentioned the annoyance of the noise from these shows and how they worry a plane will fall on their house and then shrug and say "but you gotta support the troops, right." I'm not sure if airshows in the US would be as well received if they were presented as what they are - dangerous daredevil stunts that routinely cost lives. As Ab said, there isn't that element of patriotism behind UK air shows. They are usually packaged as "a fun day out for all the family"or something equally touristy. There is one nearby where I live every year (I think it's the biggest on in Europe actually) and I don't know the last time there was a fatality. I certainly don't remember one in the past 10 years at least. As I've said, I personally don't enjoy them (too much noise, too crowded, no interest in aeroplanes/jets) but I still think this tragedy merits stricter safety regulations rather than outright banning them altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophelia Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 *hugs* to Min. It was horrific to hear about this and see the photos: to have been so close by almost to have witnessed it must be very disturbing. Like most people here I don't think airshows should be banned although I wouldn't miss them myself. I think people have a right to engage in risky sports and other people have a right to watch them. However I do think that given that there are occasional accidents, I'm very surprised that they would hold an airshow above a road, as in this case. I would hope and expect that they would hold it over barren land or close the roads in future. the pilot survived? wow. personally, i don't think these airshows should be held near populated areas. It's extreme arrogance/hubris to think something won't go wrong at some point. And really, what is the point of these shows? Yes, it's an exhibit of human ingenuity and skill, but the bottom line is profit. Where I live in Sunderland there is an annual airshow which is not for profit. Everyone can watch for free. For health and safety reasons all the stunts take place over the sea (the planes fly in across the city but planes flying across towns is a normal low-risk activity so not a problem). This means everyone can sit all along the beaches and watch. It's a massive local event. Since the UK has so much coastline it seems to me that plenty of airshows could be done on the coast like this without endangering spectators and non-participants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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