SayGen Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Petyr Baelish. In the books, not the TV show he is seen as extremely Machiavellian. While not everyone is fooled by his 'act', it is clear that people follow his ques. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the Narrow Sea Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Maybe I got the wrong idea on my read through but the book appeared to make Mance look more like a conquerer. I believe they talked about him and Tormund fighting like 3 or so times before he yielded. This is the description we're given of how Mance became king Mance had spent years assembling this vast plodding host, talking to this clan mother and that magnar, winning one village with sweet words and another with a song and a third with the edge of his sword, making peace between Harma Dogshead and the Lord o' Bones, between the Hornfoots and the Nightrunners, between the walrus men of the Frozen Shore and the cannibal clans of the great ice rivers, hammering a hundred different daggers into one great spear, aimed at the heart of the Seven Kingdoms. He had no crown nor scepter, no robes of silk and velvet, but it was plain to Jon that Mance Rayder was a king in more than name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faydra Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Why Margaery? The people in King's Landing love and cheer for her even if she marries and secures the power of a person they dislike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I dunno about Littlefinger. His success comes more from being underestimated than being charismatic. And no one seems to like him very much, other than Lysa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SayGen Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Little finger is very likable in the books, not so much in the TV show.There are a lot of people who aren't charismatic that people are trying post about. I think it comes down to not understanding what charisma is.People mistake charisma for leadership skills, or strength.Charisma however in reality is "compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others."Little finger is able to attract men/women of means and bring them into his fold, that is charisma.Little finger has no strength, no title, no wealth (other than what he himself accumulated in his lifetime).All he has is his cunning and charisma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 Little finger is very likable in the books, not so much in the TV show. There are a lot of people who aren't charismatic that people are trying post about. I think it comes down to not understanding what charisma is. People mistake charisma for leadership skills, or strength. Charisma however in reality is "compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others." Little finger is able to attract men/women of means and bring them into his fold, that is charisma. Little finger has no strength, no title, no wealth (other than what he himself accumulated in his lifetime). All he has is his cunning and charisma. Who are these people he has attracted into following him through his charisma? I agree with your overall point though that it's hard to distinguish charisma in the books from leadership and family name and strength Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis broatheon Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Littlefinger may have some charisma but was his money and dick what put him in the position that he is right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jô Maltese Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Long dead: Rhaegar Targaryen, Brandon Stark (Ned's brother) In his prime: Robert Baratheon Until dead (or so we think): Mance Rayder, Robb Stark and arguably Renly Baratheon, Oberyn Martell, Khal Drogo Nowdays: Daenarys Targaryen. Honourable mention to Brynden Tully the Blackfish. Future: Jon Targaryen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Renly ,His reputation survived after his death . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 Renly ,His reputation survived after his death . True, not many mens ghosts win more battles then they did in life Robb's legacy also lives on. Blackwood and Jason Mallister fight for him in the riverlands, along with the garrison of Riverrun, long after his death. Also seen in Wylla Manderlys speech against the Freys. Personally I feel Robert Baratheons legacy is hugely diminished by hoe he acts in thrones. Extremely charismatic in youth, extremely not in his last year's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 He's got a good core of really loyal men around him. He has managed to get people to follow him through incredible swings of fortune. <snip Charisma is what enables you to get supporters without needing to have any actual talent, skill, depth, etc. Not that charismatic people have nothing else to offer mind you, it's just that even if they didn't they'd still get support. Stannis has leadership skills, is honest and just, and is not remotely charismatic. Charismatic = has to trade off of his persuasive personality rather than the family to which he was born. Answer: Baelish, Petyr GRRM has described Lord Baelish as "helpful." He mostly trades on favors and the fact that he has avoided making enemies. But that's strategy, not charisma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Madam Mim Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Lol no. The guy sat alone playing sad songs at feasts. He was basically the death of the party, not the life of it. He was fairly-well respected, but not charismatic. Rhaegar I like to think of as the guy who walks in and everybody who doesn't know him is excited that this handsome prince is there, and then after about 10 seconds everyone realizes he's depressing as hell and isn't fun at all and is just kinda like "Hey Rhaegar..." *Whispers to their friend* "who the fuck invited this guy?" According to the Oxford dictionary, charisma is "Compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others”. Yes Rhaegar was melancholy, but he still had that magnetic thing about him that drew people to him. When he played “every women in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp” and even Cersei says that “next to Rhaegar, even her beautiful Jaime had seemed no more than a callow boy”. Rhaegar is like the medieval equivalent of One Direction with swarms of hysterical fangirls going completely gaa-gaa over him. He had natural charisma in the bucket-loads...he just wasn't interested in using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 According to the Oxford dictionary, charisma is "Compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others”. Yes Rhaegar was melancholy, but he still had that magnetic thing about him that drew people to him. When he played “every women in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp” and even Cersei says that “next to Rhaegar, even her beautiful Jaime had seemed no more than a callow boy”. Rhaegar is like the medieval equivalent of One Direction with swarms of hysterical fangirls going completely gaa-gaa over him. He had natural charisma in the bucket-loads...he just wasn't interested in using it. :lol: A very apt description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the Narrow Sea Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 According to the Oxford dictionary, charisma is "Compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others”. Yes Rhaegar was melancholy, but he still had that magnetic thing about him that drew people to him. When he played “every women in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp” and even Cersei says that “next to Rhaegar, even her beautiful Jaime had seemed no more than a callow boy”. Rhaegar is like the medieval equivalent of One Direction with swarms of hysterical fangirls going completely gaa-gaa over him. He had natural charisma in the bucket-loads...he just wasn't interested in using it. Which is the problem with calling him charismatic. He'd play his sad songs, get everyone weeping and then... what? Nothing. He'd do nothing. He wasn't playing for them, he was playing for himself (Barristan says when he sang his sad songs you got the feeling he was singing about himself - he was). When Cersei was presented to him after he'd just spent the day trouncing the greatest knights the Westerlands had to offer in his very first tournament at only 17 years old was he at all happy or enjoying himself? No, all she says that happened is Rhaegar stared at her with sad purple eyes. Not that he ever said a single word to this girl presented to him, not that he talked to a single person in that hall, just that he sat there looking sad and playing sad songs which he wrote about himself. When Rhaegar won Harrenhal do we ever hear about how he celebrated the victory? No we hear about he just went and gave the crown to Lyanna. We never hear that he at all felt anything as thousands cheered for him (according to the World Book his victory was met with huge acclaim) or that he did anything at all after he unhorsed Barristan to win the greatest tournament of all time. Just that he rode his horse over, gave her the crown (and he used his lance that's as impersonal as it gets),then nothing. When Rhaegar was a kid he never played with any other children. Aerys' knights thought that Baelor the Blessed had been reborn he was so boring. He spent his days reading scrolls and talking to maesters instead of people his age or social circle. Rhaegar's favorite place in the world was where most of his family died. And he'd go there completely by himself and write sad songs. Rhaegar's the definition of an introvert, not a charismatic person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 According to the Oxford dictionary, charisma is "Compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others”. Yes Rhaegar was melancholy, but he still had that magnetic thing about him that drew people to him. When he played “every women in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp” and even Cersei says that “next to Rhaegar, even her beautiful Jaime had seemed no more than a callow boy”. Rhaegar is like the medieval equivalent of One Direction with swarms of hysterical fangirls going completely gaa-gaa over him. He had natural charisma in the bucket-loads...he just wasn't interested in using it. Hey, just want to say it is a little bit unfair for Jiame. He was only 10 years old and Rhaegar was already 17 years old at that moment. It is unfair to judge Jiame since he has not developed fully yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 Hey, just want to say it is a little bit unfair for Jiame. He was only 10 years old and Rhaegar was already 17 years old at that moment. It is unfair to judge Jiame since he has not developed fully yet. Ha very true. Jaime at his peak seems to be a pretty charismatic character, being a leader and a bit of a hero despite what he did to Aerys. I think he can be even more so in the future with his lessened pride and jealousy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Hey, just want to say it is a little bit unfair for Jiame. He was only 10 years old and Rhaegar was already 17 years old at that moment. It is unfair to judge Jiame since he has not developed fully yet. Tell it to Cersei. Her words, not ours. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Madam Mim Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Which is the problem with calling him charismatic. He'd play his sad songs, get everyone weeping and then... what? Nothing. He'd do nothing. He wasn't playing for them, he was playing for himself (Barristan says when he sang his sad songs you got the feeling he was singing about himself - he was). When Cersei was presented to him after he'd just spent the day trouncing the greatest knights the Westerlands had to offer in his very first tournament at only 17 years old was he at all happy or enjoying himself? No, all she says that happened is Rhaegar stared at her with sad purple eyes. Not that he ever said a single word to this girl presented to him, not that he talked to a single person in that hall, just that he sat there looking sad and playing sad songs which he wrote about himself. When Rhaegar won Harrenhal do we ever hear about how he celebrated the victory? No we hear about he just went and gave the crown to Lyanna. We never hear that he at all felt anything as thousands cheered for him (according to the World Book his victory was met with huge acclaim) or that he did anything at all after he unhorsed Barristan to win the greatest tournament of all time. Just that he rode his horse over, gave her the crown (and he used his lance that's as impersonal as it gets),then nothing. When Rhaegar was a kid he never played with any other children. Aerys' knights thought that Baelor the Blessed had been reborn he was so boring. He spent his days reading scrolls and talking to maesters instead of people his age or social circle. Rhaegar's favorite place in the world was where most of his family died. And he'd go there completely by himself and write sad songs. Rhaegar's the definition of an introvert, not a charismatic person. I think we both have very different ideas in mind of what charisma is. In my head, it is a person that has a natural magnetic pull, somebody who people naturally gravitate towards and are drawn to on an emotional level, it is something that can't be taught and you either have 'it 'or you don't.. Rhaegar didn't need to use clever words/manipulation/scare tactics to inspire loyalty in people yet people cheered twice as loud for him than Tywin. Rhaegar didn't make any effort to draw people to him...yet people were still drawn to him. If we were discussing 'charm' or 'showmanship' instead of charisma then I would agree with you, Rhaeger didn't turn on the charm and made no effort in social situations to charm people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Tell it to Cersei. Her words, not ours. ;) Yeah, I know this is the words of Cersei. But ceisei is also comparing a 17 years old rhaegar with a 10 years old Jiame at that moment. I believe 17 year old Rhaegar is indeed more attractive than 10 year old Jiame in this case. But we can not use this unfair judgement to say a 17 year old rhaegar is surely more attractive than a 17 year old Jiame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Madam Mim Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Yeah, I know this is the words of Cersei. But ceisei is also comparing a 17 years old rhaegar with a 10 years old Jiame at that moment. I believe 17 year old Rhaegar is indeed more attractive than 10 year old Jiame in this case. But we can not use this unfair judgement to say a 17 year old rhaegar is surely more attractive than a 17 year old Jiame. I don't believe anyone did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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