The Puppets of Ice and Fire

[yomi]

On 25.8.2015 at 4:19 PM, Kingmonkey said:

The most obvious one for blood sacrifice is of course the ritual at the tent. I wonder whether this doesn't fulfil the two kings to wake the dragon sacrifice idea. At first it might seem that Rhaego dying before Drogo is contradicted by The father first, then the son, so both die kings but if Rhaego's spirit went into Drogo's body then arguably they are both living as king at the time of death. Alternatively it might be that this is, like the question of dragons and gender, a matter of incorrect interpretation. You don't actually have to have been crowned king to have king's blood, so maybe any royal father and son pair will do.

I fear it might be a bit offtopic, but if any pair of royal father and son might do as a sacrifice to wake the dragon, then Brandon and Rickard Stark, descendants of the Kings of Winter, might do.

To come back to the topic a bit more, let's see if we can find points from the list fitting...

On 25.8.2015 at 4:19 PM, Kingmonkey said:

1. Seven against three.
2. Three Kingsguards, or some equivalent / cloaked figures.
3. Event takes place at sunset with a blood-red sky.
4. Ghost / wraith imagery.
5. A tower long fallen / destroyed at the end of the event.
6. A parley before the battle.
7. Promises and vows.
8. A refusal to flee.
9. A great red stallion / stallion on fire.
10. A notably martial woman.
11. The sign of the falling star / red comet.
12. Animal totems.
13. Bloody walls.
14. Eight deaths.
15. A maegi or possibly similar wise/magical figures.

1. No idea.
2. There are kingsguards present. Does anyone recall how many?
3. No idea.
4. Maybe Aerys? According to his description from the wiki, he sounds a bit ghost/undead-like...

   Quote

   By the end of his life, Aerys's madness had taken a serious toll on his appearance, so that although only forty years old at the time of his death, he looked much older. He ate little and became gaunt as a result of his fear of poison.

   After repeatedly cutting himself on the Iron Throne Aerys developed a phobia of blades, and forbade any sharp implements in his presence other than the swords of his Kingsguard, refusing even to trim his nails or hair. His fingernails grew to cracked yellow claws nine inches long. His beard was matted and unwashed and his silver-gold hair hung down to his waist in wild tangles. His arms and legs were always covered with scabs and half-healed cuts from the Iron Throne.

    

5. Not really. But when did Aerys order the alchmists to place wildfire all under king's landing? If the plan to burn KL in a desperate situation is that old, that might count. It's pretty far-fetching, though, to be honest.
6. After Brandon and his companions are arrested, Aerys demands their fathers to come for trials. They come but there isn't much trial going on. Anyway, Rickard demands a trial by combat, Aerys names fire as his champion. So there is some communication going on before the killing.
7. Well, there are kingsguard around who wonder if to follow their kingsguard or their knight vows. The Starks' and other lords' vows of loyality towards the IT are doubted. Can we count Brandons challenge to Rhaegar to come out and die as a promise by Brandon to kill Rhaegar?
8. No idea.
9. No idea.
10. Well, Brandon came to KL for Lyanna, but that's again a bit far-fetched.
11. No idea.
12. We have the man on fire (Rickard who is burned) and the wolf (Brandon, the wild wolf) dieing together.
13. Happens in the Red Keep, that has a lot of bloody history, e.g. Maegor killing the craftsmen who built it.
14. Maybe. Brandon, Ethan Glover, Kyle Royce, Elbert Arryn and Jeffory Mallister are arrested by Aerys, their fathers called to KL. Except for Ethan, they are all executed. Four young men and five fathers would make nine, but Elbert's father died already a long time before. So unless there is another father already dead before, we have eight deaths.
15. Alchemists.

Not a point in your list, but there is a dragon born from this event, IIRC: Aerys, aroused by the burning of Rickard, rapes Rhaella and fathers Dany.

[Yet Another ASOIAF Fan]

On 8/25/2015 at 10:19 AM, Kingmonkey said:

Alternatively it might be that this is, like the question of dragons and gender, a matter of incorrect interpretation. You don't actually have to have been crowned king to have king's blood, so maybe any royal father and son pair will do.

Amazing find Kingmonkey.  Sorry if this is a bit off topic.  

One thing that was not mentioned was that Prince Rhaegar was born the same day, if not the same hour, the father King Aegon V and his son Prince Duncan died.  A less obvious,and slightly problematic due to distance of space and possibly time, version of a dragon hatching from the death of a father and son was when the father King Aerys II and the son Prince Rhaegar died around the same time Jon Snow would have been born.  This one is the most curious of the three as it is the only time one of the sacrificed was also "hatched" via sacrifice.  

It's too late right now for me to continue on, but in the repetition of 3 vs 7, during RR there were seven commanders on the rebels side (Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, Hoster Tully, Robert Baratheron, Stannis Baratheon, Quellon Greyjoy and Tywin Lannister)  vs  three major houses (Targaryan, Tyrell, and Martell).  Also there were three kingsguard at the battle of the Trident.

[hitman47]

ITS TIME LOOP

[Seams]

On 8/25/2015 at 10:19 AM, Kingmonkey said:

10.There are overlaps and differences, but we can start to consider a list of signs that seem to be shared by a number of different examples:

1. Seven against three.
2. Three Kingsguards, or some equivalent / cloaked figures.
3. Event takes place at sunset with a blood-red sky.
4. Ghost / wraith imagery.
5. A tower long fallen / destroyed at the end of the event.
6. A parley before the battle.
7. Promises and vows.
8. A refusal to flee.
9. A great red stallion / stallion on fire.
10. A notably martial woman.
11. The sign of the falling star / red comet.
12. Animal totems.
13. Bloody walls.
14. Eight deaths.
15. A maegi or possibly similar wise/magical figures.

This is so good! Sorry I missed seeing this thread when it was fresh, but I want to play, too.

The Kingbreaker chapter, from ADwD (Barristan Selmy pov)

1. Seven against three. "Six brazen beasts were with him. All were masked as insects, identical to one another."
2. Three Kingsguards, or some equivalent / cloaked figures. "A pair of brazen beasts" + Steelskin, a young pit fighter
3. Event takes place at sunset with a blood-red sky. Not so much: the last light had faded in the west; the black of night.
4. Ghost / wraith imagery. "The faces of all the kings that he had served and failed floated before him in the darkness, and the faces of the brothers who had served beside him in the Kingsguard as well....It began to rain. ... It sounds like dead kings, weeping."
5. A tower long fallen / destroyed at the end of the event. "The Great Pyramid of Meereen had been built as an echo to the great Pyramid of Ghis whose collossal ruins Lomas Longstrider had once visited."
6. A parley before the battle. "'Why have you come?' 'To ask a question.'"
7. Promises and vows."'You will be kept a prisoner until the queen returns....You have my word as a knight.'"
8. A refusal to flee. "'It is not too late to throw down your steel. Yield.' 'Die,' spat Krazz..."
9. A great red stallion / stallion on fire. "He turned in time to see Khrazz emerge from behind a tapestry ... his weapon of choice was in his hand: a Dothraki arakh, long and curved. A slasher's sword, made to deliver deep slicing cuts from horseback....His own blade opened up the pit fighter's cheek from ear to mouth, then traced a raw red gash across his chest. ... He seized the brazier with his off hand and flipped it, scattering embers and hot coals..." (Four chapters later, Drogon sets fire to, and then kills and eats a horse.)
10. A notably martial woman. "the armor that the queen had given him as a token of her esteem."
11. The sign of the falling star / red comet. "Ser Barristan pullled his sword from the scabbard. Its sharp edge caught the light from the brazier, became a line of orange fire."
12. Animal totems. Helmets include dragon wings, blood bat, locusts, rat, bull.
13. Bloody walls. "Dark and windowless, surrounded on all sides by brick walls eight feet thick." (The servants' corridor had red and black bricks.)
14. Eight deaths. Only one in the scene (Krazz). Before he goes to the king's bedchamber, Selmy recalls Old Lord Whent, Oswell Whent, Aerys, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Elia, Ashara, and Ashara's stillborn daughter. That would be nine deaths unless the baby lived...
15. A maegi or possibly similar wise/magical figures. Could be the Shavepate who conspires with Selmy before he goes to the king's bedchamber or the guard, Steelskin, whose skin is scarred with ancient Valyrian sorcerer's signs

At the end of the scene:

"Where does the seneschal want His Grace to go?"

"Outside." Mklaz seemed to see him for the first time. "Outside, ser. To the t-terrace. To see."

"To see what?"

"D-d-dragons. The dragons have been loosed, ser."

Seven save us all, the old knight thought.

The blood red sky seems to be the missing piece, but it is raining, and that might evoke the Rains of Castamere and the implication of slaughter and blood.

[Kingmonkey]

On 24/08/2016 at 2:15 AM, Seams said:

The blood red sky seems to be the missing piece, but it is raining, and that might evoke the Rains of Castamere and the implication of slaughter and blood.

Interesting stuff, Seams! I'll have to do a re-read of that chapter with my eye on the echoes. 

However I'd like to question whether that missing piece is actually missing. We have a repeated equivalence between the redness of blood and the redness of fire -- indeed, the Targaryen context invites us to see them together ("Fire and Blood"). The chapter ends with Barristan Selmy being asked to go out and witness the freed dragons. Those dragons are, indeed, lighting the sky up red -- just fire-red rather than blood-red. 

[Melifeather]

There also seems to be a pattern where they sacrifice a child or children in order to help resurrect someone or birth a dragon. Rhaego, Barra's child, Ned's concern that Robert would kill Joff, Myrcella and Tommen, the maegi tells Cersei her three children will die... I'm probably missing a few, but enough to demonstrate that this too is an element in the repeated time loop.

[Kingmonkey]

9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

There also seems to be a pattern where they sacrifice a child or children in order to help resurrect someone or birth a dragon. Rhaego, Barra's child, Ned's concern that Robert would kill Joff, Myrcella and Tommen, the maegi tells Cersei her three children will die... I'm probably missing a few, but enough to demonstrate that this too is an element in the repeated time loop.

 

On 22/08/2016 at 8:35 AM, Yet Another Stark Fan said:

One thing that was not mentioned was that Prince Rhaegar was born the same day, if not the same hour, the father King Aegon V and his son Prince Duncan died.  A less obvious,and slightly problematic due to distance of space and possibly time, version of a dragon hatching from the death of a father and son was when the father King Aerys II and the son Prince Rhaegar died around the same time Jon Snow would have been born.  This one is the most curious of the three as it is the only time one of the sacrificed was also "hatched" via sacrifice.  

You two need to get together and discuss this. ;^)

We need to know more about Summerhall. I wonder if the reason that Rhaegar changed his mind about his belief that he was tPtwP is because he found something at Summerhall that indicated to him that Duncan died before Aegon. "Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings."

[Melifeather]

I too have noticed the repeated pattern of what I like to call the blood magic ritual, and it's stuck in a time loop that keeps cycling over and over. I suspect that the original source was an altering of nature by the Children. It all goes back to the three swords that the Children forged to fight each wave of invading peoples: First Men, Andals, Rhoynar, Targaryen.

The three swords were:

1) Sword tempered in water = Hammer of Waters

2) Sword tempered in the heart of a lion = they fought back creating White Walkers

3) Sword tempered in the heart of Nissa Nissa = they conjured the red comet and "broke" the moon. And after the moon was broken, dragons appeared.

The last forging that broke the moon involved a blood magic ritual with the same elements that you have listed. I've inserted two that you were missing.

1. Seven against three.
2. Three Kingsguards, or some equivalent / cloaked figures.
3. Event takes place at sunset with a blood-red sky.
4. Ghost / wraith imagery.
5. A tower long fallen / destroyed at the end of the event.
6. A parley before the battle.
7. Promises and vows.
8. A refusal to flee compromise
9. A great red stallion / stallion on fire.
10. A notably martial woman.
11. The sign of the falling star / red comet.
12. Animal totems.
13. Children are sacrificed
14. Bloody walls.
15. Eight deaths.
16. A maegi or possibly similar wise/magical figures.
17. Dragons are born

This is the blood magic ritual that "broke" Westeros/Essos aka Planetos which Weasel Pie posited is actually a moon itself. The cycle will keep repeating until it too is completely undone or unwoven. How will the cycle be reversed? IMO that process has already begun. It's not something that can be done in an instant, but it will happen within a short period of years. It's reversal began when Daenerys completed what Mirri began. Mirri's blood magic ritual to resurrect Drogo was incomplete until Dany sacrificed a stallion, Mirri and Drogo in the fire to replicate the fire of the comet, and three dragons were born. That event reversed the cycle and it has been replaying historical events in reverse order. Dany is the source/origin and mother of dragons. Victarion will bring dragons to Westeros ala Aegon the Conqueror style, only it will be as if the Blackfyres succeeded. He will arrive from the west using the Iron Islands as his Dragonstone. Meanwhile Arianne has brought Dorne to the Rhoynar when she brings her marriage proposal to fAegon and JonCon. And in the north, the Wall has been exhaling all the cold magic that has been trapped inside for 8000 years, moving through the tunnels underground, and it has found an exit at Winterfell where the warding has been removed: there is no Stark.

[LynnS]

59 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I too have noticed the repeated pattern of what I like to call the blood magic ritual, and it's stuck in a time loop that keeps cycling over and over. I suspect that the original source was an altering of nature by the Children. It all goes back to the three swords that the Children forged to fight each wave of invading peoples: First Men, Andals, Rhoynar, Targaryen.

The three swords were:

1) Sword tempered in water = Hammer of Waters

2) Sword tempered in the heart of a lion = they fought back creating White Walkers

3) Sword tempered in the heart of Nissa Nissa = they conjured the red comet and "broke" the moon. And after the moon was broken, dragons appeared.

The last forging that broke the moon involved a blood magic ritual with the same elements that you have listed. I've inserted two that you were missing.

1. Seven against three.
2. Three Kingsguards, or some equivalent / cloaked figures.
3. Event takes place at sunset with a blood-red sky.
4. Ghost / wraith imagery.
5. A tower long fallen / destroyed at the end of the event.
6. A parley before the battle.
7. Promises and vows.
8. A refusal to flee compromise
9. A great red stallion / stallion on fire.
10. A notably martial woman.
11. The sign of the falling star / red comet.
12. Animal totems.
13. Children are sacrificed
14. Bloody walls.
15. Eight deaths.
16. A maegi or possibly similar wise/magical figures.
17. Dragons are born

This is the blood magic ritual that "broke" Westeros/Essos aka Planetos which Weasel Pie posited is actually a moon itself. The cycle will keep repeating until it too is completely undone or unwoven. How will the cycle be reversed? IMO that process has already begun. It's not something that can be done in an instant, but it will happen within a short period of years. It's reversal began when Daenerys completed what Mirri began. Mirri's blood magic ritual to resurrect Drogo was incomplete until Dany sacrificed a stallion, Mirri and Drogo in the fire to replicate the fire of the comet, and three dragons were born. That event reversed the cycle and it has been replaying historical events in reverse order. Dany is the source/origin and mother of dragons. Victarion will bring dragons to Westeros ala Aegon the Conqueror style, only it will be as if the Blackfyres succeeded. He will arrive from the west using the Iron Islands as his Dragonstone. Meanwhile Arianne has brought Dorne to the Rhoynar when she brings her marriage proposal to fAegon and JonCon. And in the north, the Wall has been exhaling all the cold magic that has been trapped inside for 8000 years, moving through the tunnels underground, and it has found an exit at Winterfell where the warding has been removed: there is no Stark.

I'm going to add that I think holy blood and the brightest light is needed for the sacrifice; the absence of which might contribute to failure of the ritural.  MMD identifies herself as a godswife.  The brightest light would be an unborn child. Just spitballing off the Euron chapter in WoW. He's collecting holy men including his brother.  He tells him that he will be useful to him and then at the chapter close; he has bound both Aeron and his pregnant salt wife to the prow of the ship along with a few other holy men elsewhere.  He means to be reborn as AA and break the world (like an egg).  Sacrificing Aeron would seem to fit the sacrificial element of water.

So just recalling the MMD was a maegi and a godswife and that Dany's unborn son filled those elements of the ritual along with the blood sacrifice outside the tent and horse within.  Drogo was placed in a tub full of water and then bathed in blood.

ETA: Not forgetting that Euron also attempted to hatch a dragon egg at one point and threw it overboard along with the wizard who said he could hatch it.

[PrettyPig]

On 8/25/2015 at 8:11 AM, Kingmonkey said:

What follows is not so much a theory as it is an observation. There is a pattern of events that can be found repeated in ASOIAF, and whatever it means, it seems to be connected to the core mysteries of the series. I suspect it is the core mystery of the series. These echoes may be a purely literary device, a use of paralleling to bring together shared ideas. It may be something rather more. A ritual that people stumble upon, more or less accidentally, more or less knowingly. Or it may be one of these events created magical ripples in the river of time, making the event replay as echoes before and after. Or perhaps it's a story desperate to be told, leaking out into the narratives of many characters and shaping their stories to its own. Perhaps it's a mixture of these. Each time we see these events echoed, some of the details are shared, and some changed. It's as if the story is struggling to be completed, the ritual never quite being fulfilled. Amidst the personal struggles of the characters we read about is a greater struggle they are fighting unaware, a fate that tugs their puppet strings and makes them dance to the song of ice and fire.

Haven't read the full theory in a while, and am glad to see this resurface.   I have the soft spot in my heart for the TOJ/MMD stuff, obviously, but I've been finding other echoes and parallels everywhere now.    

 

Re: retelling of tales and cycles that play out over and over again, you might be interested in quite a number of thematic similarities between the reigns of Aegon IV and Aerys II - horrible kings with years of misrule that ultimately led to the worst of the war and ruin for Westeros....not due to the kings directly, but their sons.   A ritual being repeated on a grand scale rather than a single magic-based event, but I think if we want to see "what started it all", we look to these reigns and draw some logical conclusions about the gaps in the echo sequence.   I've laid the groundwork here (and of course have some crackpot to go along with it), but would be interested in thoughts regarding what this tells us about the leadup to Robert's Rebellion.

[Seams]

7 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Re: retelling of tales and cycles that play out over and over again, you might be interested in quite a number of thematic similarities between the reigns of Aegon IV and Aerys II - horrible kings with years of misrule that ultimately led to the worst of the war and ruin for Westeros....not due to the kings directly, but their sons.

This puts me in mind of the King Tristifer story that Catelyn tells Robb at Oldstones shortly before he writes his will and goes off to the red wedding. The gist of the conversation, according to Robb, is that a King might win most of his battles, but be let down by his flawed heir.

[PrettyPig]

17 minutes ago, Seams said:

This puts me in mind of the King Tristifer story that Catelyn tells Robb at Oldstones shortly before he writes his will and goes off to the red wedding. The gist of the conversation, according to Robb, is that a King might win most of his battles, but be let down by his flawed heir.

We also get the converse in the discussion between Jaime and Hoster Blackwood:

"(...)So long as men remember the wrongs done to their forebears, no peace will ever last. So we go on century after century, with us hating the Brackens and them hating us. My father says there will never be an end to it.'

"There could be."

"How, my lord? The old wounds never heal, my father says."

"My father had a saying too. Never wound a foe when you can kill him. Dead men don't claim vengeance."

"Their sons do", said Hoster, apologetically.

"Not if you kill the sons as well. Ask the Casterlys about that if you doubt me. Ask Lord and Lady Tarbeck, or the Reynes of Castamere. Ask the Prince of Dragonstone."

[Shmedricko]

There is another one of these echoes in Chapter 73 of ASOS, when Jon is sent beyond the Wall to kill Mance Rayder.

Jon, along with Tormund, who is mounted on a horse, arrives at the wildling camp and finds three people standing outside a tent:

Quote

There were no true hills here, but Mance Rayder's white fur tent had been raised on a spot of high stony ground right on the edge of the trees. The King-beyond-the-Wall was waiting outside, his ragged red-and-black cloak blowing in the wind. Harma Dogshead was with him, Jon saw, back from her raids and feints along the Wall, and Varamyr Sixskins as well, attended by his shadowcat and two lean grey wolves.

Compare the bolded to: "They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind."

Mance invites Jon inside the tent (possibly supporting the idea that the KG let Ned in the ToJ), where there is a pregnant woman about to give birth. There is also a brazier, as there was in Mirri Maz Duur's and Maggy the Frog's tents. Mance and Jon parley, with Mance trying to convince Jon to let him and the wildlings pass through the Wall, and at one point Mance says "We will not kneel to you," similar to Arthur Dayne's "Our knees do not bend easily."

The parley is followed by a fight, though it's instigated by a third party. As Mance rides off for battle, he says "Varamyr, stay and see that no harm comes to Dalla." Rhaegar could have given a similar order to the Kingsguard when he left the ToJ.

There's a red star in the sky, which is rising rather than falling:

Quote

Then the skinchanger threw back his head and screamed.

The sound was shocking, ear-piercing, thick with agony. Varamyr fell, writhing, and the 'cat was screaming too . . . and high, high in the eastern sky, against the wall of cloud, Jon saw the eagle burning. For a heartbeat it flamed brighter than a star, wreathed in red and gold and orange, its wings beating wildly at the air as if it could fly from the pain. Higher it flew, and higher, and higher still.

Varamyr's scream brings Val out of the tent, and she announces that the birth has begun.

Quote

"Go inside the tent and stay with Dalla. It's not safe out here." It wouldn't be a great deal safer inside, but she didn't need to hear that.

"I need to find the midwife," Val said.

"You're the midwife. I'll stay here until Mance comes back."

There may have been a second woman at the ToJ who also fulfilled the role of midwife.

The chapter ends with Jon entering the tent, just like Daenerys' chapter:

Quote

Robert, Jon thought for one mad moment, remembering poor Owen, but when the trumpets blew again and the knights charged, the name they cried was "Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!"

Jon turned away, and went inside the tent.

Quote

No, she shouted, or perhaps she only thought it, for no whisper of sound escaped her lips. She was being carried. Her eyes opened to gaze up at a flat dead sky, black and bleak and starless. Please, no. The sound of Mirri Maz Duur's voice grew louder, until it filled the world. The shapes! she screamed. The dancers!

Ser Jorah carried her inside the tent.

Dalla dies giving birth to Mance's son, and due to the child's king's blood, Jon later sends him away to be passed off as Sam's bastard, paralleling what happened to Jon under RLJ. We first heard about the "two kings to wake the dragon" idea in reference to Mance and his son as well.

Also, shortly before all this, Tormund mentions to Jon that Longspear Ryk stole his daughter away from him and her brothers:

Quote

"That Longspear stole me daughter. Munda, me little autumn apple. Took her right out o' my tent with all four o' her brothers about. Toregg slept through it, the great lout, and Torwynd . . . well, Torwynd the Tame, that says all that needs saying, don't it? The young ones gave the lad a fight, though."

"And Munda?" asked Jon.

"She's my own blood," said Tormund proudly. "She broke his lip for him and bit one ear half off, and I hear he's got so many scratches on his back he can't wear a cloak. She likes him well enough, though. And why not? He don't fight with no spear, you know. Never has. So where do you think he got that name? Har!"

Jon had to laugh. Even now, even here. Ygritte had been fond of Longspear Ryk. He hoped he found some joy with Tormund's Munda. Someone needed to find some joy somewhere.

Like at a Tower of Joy?

There might be more connections, but this is what stood out to me upon re-reading the chapter.

[IceFire125]

49 minutes ago, Shmedricko said:

There is another one of these echoes in Chapter 73 of ASOS, when Jon is sent beyond the Wall to kill Mance Rayder.

Jon, along with Tormund, who is mounted on a horse, arrives at the wildling camp and finds three people standing outside a tent:

Compare the bolded to: "They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind."

Mance invites Jon inside the tent (possibly supporting the idea that the KG let Ned in the ToJ), where there is a pregnant woman about to give birth. There is also a brazier, as there was in Mirri Maz Duur's and Maggy the Frog's tents. Mance and Jon parley, with Mance trying to convince Jon to let him and the wildlings pass through the Wall, and at one point Mance says "We will not kneel to you," similar to Arthur Dayne's "Our knees do not bend easily."

The parley is followed by a fight, though it's instigated by a third party. As Mance rides off for battle, he says "Varamyr, stay and see that no harm comes to Dalla." Rhaegar could have given a similar order to the Kingsguard when he left the ToJ.

There's a red star in the sky, which is rising rather than falling:

Varamyr's scream brings Val out of the tent, and she announces that the birth has begun.

There may have been a second woman at the ToJ who also fulfilled the role of midwife.

The chapter ends with Jon entering the tent, just like Daenerys' chapter:

Dalla dies giving birth to Mance's son, and due to the child's king's blood, Jon later sends him away to be passed off as Sam's bastard, paralleling what happened to Jon under RLJ. We first heard about the "two kings to wake the dragon" idea in reference to Mance and his son as well.

Also, shortly before all this, Tormund mentions to Jon that Longspear Ryk stole his daughter away from him and her brothers:

Like at a Tower of Joy?

There might be more connections, but this is what stood out to me upon re-reading the chapter.

NICE!!

Please post this at RLJ thread too. 

GRRM also gave that subtle hints of how Mance = Rhaegar (not the individuals to each other, but of attributes and character, cloaks)

Mance pledged his vows to the NW, broke it for a woman and married her; thus Aemon Steelsong is born legit and is a Prince.  He is sent away, now living as a bastard to hide his identity so that he could live.

Rhaegar pledged his vows to Elia, broke it for a woman and married her; thus Jon Snow is born legitimate and is a Prince. He was sent away then, lived as a bastard in Winterfell to hide his identity so that he could live.

Also remember, that eagle marked Jon's face.  Eagle symbolizes an authority/kingship in Greek mythology.  The Greek also attributed the eagle to Zeus and the Romans, the meaning of eagle to Jupiter, both Zeus/Jupiter are king among the gods.  For some of us, who believe this is what GRRM is pointing, is consistent with how he described Jon's path already been chosen... by the divine. 

This same eagle, who marked Jon's face, fought against Stannis, a "false" king, in the truest form of the word, especially when Mel asked the flames to show him the glimpse of the lord's champion and her king.  The flames only show her snow... Jon.  

Remember that at the day of Jon's birth, the 3KG declared that Robert (Stannis' rights came from him) is a usurper, not when Ned confronted them.  The moment Ned confronted them, the 3KG make it official to Ned.  GRRM is consistent, through out the books, he has described Jon with situations to where Jon perform/involved with "kingship" duties and character.

 

 

[Lady Dyanna]

I can't get in to quote it right now, but the last Jon Chapter in ADWD also follows a similar pattern at the end when Jon emerges from the meeting to find Wun Wun attacking Ser Patreck.  It occurs in front of Hardin's tower. Ser Patrek is wearing a white patterned cloak that is blowing in the wind. Bright red blood sprays into the air from Ser Patreck like a child pulling the flowers off of a daisy.  Val and Monster are supposed to be inside the tower under guard when Ser Patreck tries to sneak in.  Jon comes to the scene with two other men, Horse and Rory. Seven other men are mentioned by name including Wun Wun, Ser Patreck, Leathers, Wick Wittlestick, Bowen Marsh,  Se Malegorn and Ser Brus.

[Aedam Targaryen]

On August 27, 2016 at 7:24 AM, Kingmonkey said:

"Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings."

I'm currently away from my books, so I have no idea if anything else lines up with this story, but this line brings to mind the first Blackfyre rebellion. King Daemon Blackfyre being killed by Bloodravens archers, to be followed by his second son Aemon being killed. The father first, then the son. 

Again, I don't know how the rest of the list lines up, and the rebellion obviously failed, so he never really became king, but I'm going to look into it when I get a chance. 

I'm so glad this thread was resurrected! I must have missed it the first time around, and it's great. Great job so far, everyone!

[Lady Dyanna]

@Kingmonkey Just out of curiosity, have you read through the Princess and the Queen looking for the same patterns? Pretty sure I've waded into the deep end at some point and just trying to check if I'm treading water or sinking....

[Kingmonkey]

On 01/10/2016 at 3:10 AM, Lady Dyanna said:

@Kingmonkey Just out of curiosity, have you read through the Princess and the Queen looking for the same patterns? Pretty sure I've waded into the deep end at some point and just trying to check if I'm treading water or sinking....

I haven't. To be completely honest I found it pretty unreadable and only skimmed it. 

It's pretty much pseudo-historical in style, which leaves little room for the kind of literary echoes GRRM has dotted around elsewhere, but that does still leave some room for mirrored events. The same holds for TWOIAF, but I haven't checked that out for any historical echoes either. I suppose that could be worth doing -- there may be some "event zero" so far unidentified.

[Lady Dyanna]

40 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

I haven't. To be completely honest I found it pretty unreadable and only skimmed it. 

It's pretty much pseudo-historical in style, which leaves little room for the kind of literary echoes GRRM has dotted around elsewhere, but that does still leave some room for mirrored events. The same holds for TWOIAF, but I haven't checked that out for any historical echoes either. I suppose that could be worth doing -- there may be some "event zero" so far unidentified.

I listened to it on YouTube while not being able to fall asleep one night. I actually need to look at it in more detail at some point but there are some really strange things occurring. There's a scene with Cersei in aCoK when she is all in green and Tyrion is commenting about her keeping the bed Robert died in that made me think of Queen Alicent Hightower. and made me look at it. I swear all of the happenings surrounding these different historical conflict are all just one offs of one another, from the Dance of the Dragons, to Robert's Rebellion, to the war of five kings. I would suspect that the Blackfyre rebellion would fall in there too. Circles within circles. Either that or GRRM is out of inspiration and just keeps varying the tale a bit.  LOL.

[Kingmonkey]

1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

 Circles within circles. Either that or GRRM is out of inspiration and just keeps varying the tale a bit.  LOL.

I think that there's a theme there which GRRM likes to play with -- the idea that those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. The anticipated second dance would fit this to a T. I don't think GRRM views dragons as a good thing.

Our echoes seem much more specific than this though. The echoes of history should be about the broad sweep of events rather than the specific details, while the echoes of the ToJ, MMD's tent etc. appear to be all about the details.