The Puppets of Ice and Fire

[Lady Dyanna]

51 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

I think that there's a theme there which GRRM likes to play with -- the idea that those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. The anticipated second dance would fit this to a T. I don't think GRRM views dragons as a good thing.

I definitely agree with that. But I also think there's more. .

51 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

Our echoes seem much more specific than this though. The echoes of history should be about the broad sweep of events rather than the specific details, while the echoes of the ToJ, MMD's tent etc. appear to be all about the details. 

Let me give you a quick example between RR and the DoD. Cersei, associated with green plots and schemes to keep her three illegitimate children on the throne at the expense of true heir, while Alicent, also associated with green also plots and schemes to keep her own true born children on the throne at expense of the rumored to be illegitimate sons of Rhaenyra. And that's just the broad strokes. When you get into the individual details even more reflects against the other. Look specifically at the dragon fight at Harrenhall between Prince Daemon and Prince Aemond. Aemond shows up to the tower with his PREGNANT rumored to be sorcerous girlfriend,.Alys Rivers who watches the battles from inside Kingspyre Tower. The Battle itself, I think can actually be pulled apart into another echo.

Then you have Queen Helaena who either jumps or is pushed to her death from Maegor's Holdfast. I think I've now found a total of SEVEN women throughout all of these books including D&E that have either jumped or been pushed from a tower and that doesn't even start taking into account the women that were either giving birth, pregnant or protecting children in a tower or tent.

 

[Kingmonkey]

I just spotted something rather intriguing:

Quote

 

"Come with me," said Sam. "Maester Aemon's woken up and wants to hear about these dragons. He's talking about bleeding stars and white shadows and dreams and . . . if we could find out more about these dragons, it might help give him ease. Help me."

AFFC ch.26

 

There's actually nothing about white shadows that we hear Aemon saying. His only mention of shadows is where he talks about dreaming of the shadows of dragons on the snow, but those aren't white shadows. So perhaps Sam's referring to something said off-page, as part of Aemon's general rambling. 

Could then these "white shadows" actually be a part of the prophecy of TPTWP? If so, that gives us a very strong connection to the "wraith/ghost" imagery common to many of the echoes.

Apart from this line, the specific phrase "white shadow" pops up in three contexts: describing Ghost, describing Kingsguards, and describing Others.

[Macgregor of the North]

15 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I just spotted something rather intriguing:

There's actually nothing about white shadows that we hear Aemon saying. His only mention of shadows is where he talks about dreaming of the shadows of dragons on the snow, but those aren't white shadows. So perhaps Sam's referring to something said off-page, as part of Aemon's general rambling. 

Could then these "white shadows" actually be a part of the prophecy of TPTWP? If so, that gives us a very strong connection to the "wraith/ghost" imagery common to many of the echoes.

Apart from this line, the specific phrase "white shadow" pops up in three contexts: describing Ghost, describing Kingsguards, and describing Others.

I haven't read it all yet but good thread mate. Cheers for the heads up.

I suppose the white shadows technically are part of TPTWP Prophecy as the Prophecy is about the hero/saviour figure who will fight in another war for the dawn and we all know the foe of the tales and prophesies is the Others/white walkers, referred to as white shadows many times in the books.

I had always thought Aemon was referring to the Others as by that time in the books the returned threat of the Others has been realised completely and it has been on Aemons mind a lot. As has the Prophecy which refers to the figure who will return to beat them back once again.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Kingmonkey

I haven't read through all the comments and posts etc but I wondered if it has been brought up anywhere in regards to the seven versus three aspect.

Aegon and his sisters, three, riding their Dragons in the original conquest. 

Against the original seven Kingdoms, when they were Kingdoms and not mere provinces of a greater realm.

[Kingmonkey]

38 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Aegon and his sisters, three, riding their Dragons in the original conquest. 

Against the original seven Kingdoms, when they were Kingdoms and not mere provinces of a greater realm.

It's intriguing to say the least, but very hard to judge. We don't have a lot of detail of the conquest to look for any of the other direct connections. I'm wary of putting too much purely on the numbers simply because we can expect to see those numbers appearing independently of the pattern. 3 and 7 (and to a perhaps lesser extent 5, 9, 12, 13) are storyteller's numbers. The seven kingdoms and the seven gods -- coincidence? Meaningful? Literary device? A bit of each? Who knows.

On the other hand, this might give some context for the return of the Others. The time gap seems a bit large, but we could speculate that the end of the Targs may have been seen by the Others as an opportunity, but it took them a while to actually find out about it. Might the Others have their own version of those prophecies that warn them of a great villain who will stop them from bringing back the night? Might they also have concluded that villain will come from the Targ line? 

That then would raise the question of why the Others didn't do something before the arrival of the Targs. However Targ culture seems to have changed Westeros a fair bit. They may have invalidated but supplanted some prior protection. I think we're delving into territory that's firmly in the "We don't know enough" category. 

[Macgregor of the North]

14 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

It's intriguing to say the least, but very hard to judge. We don't have a lot of detail of the conquest to look for any of the other direct connections. I'm wary of putting too much purely on the numbers simply because we can expect to see those numbers appearing independently of the pattern. 3 and 7 (and to a perhaps lesser extent 5, 9, 12, 13) are storyteller's numbers. The seven kingdoms and the seven gods -- coincidence? Meaningful? Literary device? A bit of each? Who knows.

On the other hand, this might give some context for the return of the Others. The time gap seems a bit large, but we could speculate that the end of the Targs may have been seen by the Others as an opportunity, but it took them a while to actually find out about it. Might the Others have their own version of those prophecies that warn them of a great villain who will stop them from bringing back the night? Might they also have concluded that villain will come from the Targ line? 

That then would raise the question of why the Others didn't do something before the arrival of the Targs. However Targ culture seems to have changed Westeros a fair bit. They may have invalidated but supplanted some prior protection. I think we're delving into territory that's firmly in the "We don't know enough" category. 

Totally, just thought I'd throw it in the hat. It was just the numbers that caught me but I agree it's not solid enough in regards to other stand out connections. 

I have long been pondering what triggered the Others returning at this stage and have a few ideas of course but I've never put them into a coherent order worthy of a post. Maybe I'll throw myself at that next. 

[Shmedricko]

On 11/9/2016 at 10:35 AM, Kingmonkey said:

Might the Others have their own version of those prophecies that warn them of a great villain who will stop them from bringing back the night? Might they also have concluded that villain will come from the Targ line? 

There's a theory that the reason the Others ambush Waymar Royce in the prologue is because they are searching for someone who matches Jon Snow's description, which might indicate that they have foreseen that such an individual will defeat them, or play some other role in their fate. Recently I've also wondered if the rose petals in Ned's dream being described "as blue as the eyes of death" is a hint that the events at the ToJ, i.e. Jon's birth, is what triggered the return of the Others.

[IceFire125]

1 hour ago, Shmedricko said:

There's a theory that the reason the Others ambush Waymar Royce in the prologue is because they are searching for someone who matches Jon Snow's description, which might indicate that they have foreseen that such an individual will defeat them, or play some other role in their fate. Recently I've also wondered if the rose petals in Ned's dream being described "as blue as the eyes of death" is a hint that the events at the ToJ, i.e. Jon's birth, is what triggered the return of the Others.

"for every song must have its balance"

Benjen Stark emerged from the shelter he shared with his nephew. “There you are. Jon, damn it, don’t go off like that by yourself. I thought the Others had gotten you.” - AGOT

“Makes you wonder what lies beyond,” a familiar voice said.
Jon looked around. “Lannister. I didn’t see—I mean, I thought I was alone.”

“... why is it that when one man builds a wall, the next man immediately needs to know what’s on the other side?” He cocked his head and looked at Jon with his curious mismatched eyes. “You do want to know what’s on the other side, don’t you?” - AGOT

“Your lordship knows best, I am sure. Might I ask about these corpses in the ice cells? They make the men uneasy. And to keep them under guard? Surely that is a waste of two good men, unless you fear that they …”
“… will rise? I pray they do.”
Septon Cellador paled. “Seven save us.” Wine dribbled down his chin in a red line. “Lord Commander, wights are monstrous, unnatural creatures. Abominations before the eyes of the gods. You … you cannot mean to try to talk with them?”
“Can they talk?” asked Jon Snow. “I think not, but I cannot claim to know. Monsters they may be, but they were men before they died. How much remains? The one I slew was intent on killing Lord Commander Mormont. Plainly it remembered who he was and where to find him.” Maester Aemon would have grasped his purpose, Jon did not doubt; Sam Tarly would have been terrified, but he would have understood as well. “My lord father used to tell me that a man must know his enemies. We understand little of the wights and less about the Others. We need to learn.” - ADWD

Ser Patrek smiled. “Tell me, Lord Commander, should the Others turn up, do you plan to offer hospitality to them as well?” - ADWD

“Fire is a cruel way to die. Dalla died to give this child life, but you have nourished him, cherished him. You saved your own boy from the ice. Now save hers from the fire.” - ADWD

I'm of the opinion that Jon will be that balance.  Jon is the ultimate pact of ICE and Fire.  His existence is the evidence of The Pact of Ice and Fire made flesh.

 

[Prof. Cecily]

You've given me a lot to think about!

On 8/25/2015 at 4:11 PM, Kingmonkey said:

It all starts with the Tower of Joy. The language Martin uses in Eddard's dream is unlike almost anything else in the books. It's a dream, sure, but there's more to it than that. The language is richly poetic in a way Martin rarely employs, and the dialogue is highly unnatural and ritualistic. Everything about the way that it's written screams out that it's highly important. The Tower of Joy scene is presented to us as a mystery, and seems to have a connection to the central underlying theme of fire and ice. People have spent a lot of time trying to analyse this vitally central Tower of Joy scene, but generally miss an important point: the events at the Tower of Joy are not unique.

Throughout the text are a number of echoes of the ToJ, scenes that at first sight do not seem related, but share a sometimes very clear connection. When we start to look any pattern, it's inevitable that we will find them everywhere. Finding patterns and parallels is the brain's favourite trick. For that reason I urge caution with what you're about to read, but I think you'll agree that at least most of this is real, because it just fits a little too well not to be. I'm not the first person to have picked up on at least some of these echoes. Plenty of people have looked at the ideas discussed here before. Not everything is by any means new, but if anyone has brought all this together before, I haven't seen it. It's worth doing, because it helps to give context to a lot of disparate ideas and theories, and may explain a number of puzzling events in the books.



2.Cersei's dream

The next echo I'll bring up is the most distant echo, but also the most obvious, because the language Martin uses tells us very clearly that it's an echo.
 
 
Cersei's dream, where she recalls her visit to Maggy the Frog, seems to bear little connection to the ToJ, but reproduces a lot of the language of Ned's dream. We have to look a bit closer to see the parallels.

Cersei and her two companions make three; they are no Kingsguards, but they are wearing cloaks. In an odd inversion of the ToJ, the three are the ones trying to get in, rather than the ones guarding. We get "In the dream the pavilions were shadowed, and the knights and serving men they passed were made of mist," obviously reminiscent of Ned's "In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist." There is no tower here, instead they enter a tent. There's someone lying in the bed in that tent, but it's a maegi rather than a dying girl though the tent does smell of death. As at the Tower of Joy, there are four questions asked, and there is blood. We're given a final echo with "But in the dream her face dissolved, melting away into ribbons of grey mist until all that remained were two squinting yellow eyes, the eyes of death," compared to the ToJ dream's "A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. "

So many of the details are different here that it's a distant, if obvious, echo. It might tell us something more about the original though. Cersei's questions are about the children she believes she will have with Rhaegar. Although she is one of the three, Cersei is a kind of substitute for Lyanna. Lyanna stole both Cersei's kings from her, and that makes Cersei a kind of failed Lyanna. Perhaps then this echo, despite the obviously similar language, is an example of a failure of that ritual, or cycle of events, to unfold.

 

I'd not caught this before. It put a new level of meaning and relation to the events remembered/dreamed of.

 

On 8/26/2015 at 7:55 AM, J. Stargaryen said:

...Also: “He dreamt an old dream of a hovel by the sea, three dogs whimpering, a woman’s tears.” - ADwD, Prologue. Given the nature of that prologue, I think it could be very relevant to what you're onto here.

 

Good catch. Dreams and dreams and dreams.

On 8/29/2016 at 4:05 AM, Shmedricko said:

There is another one of these echoes in Chapter 73 of ASOS, when Jon is sent beyond the Wall to kill Mance Rayder.

Jon, along with Tormund, who is mounted on a horse, arrives at the wildling camp and finds three people standing outside a tent:

Compare the bolded to: "They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind."

Mance invites Jon inside the tent (possibly supporting the idea that the KG let Ned in the ToJ), where there is a pregnant woman about to give birth. There is also a brazier, as there was in Mirri Maz Duur's and Maggy the Frog's tents. Mance and Jon parley, with Mance trying to convince Jon to let him and the wildlings pass through the Wall, and at one point Mance says "We will not kneel to you," similar to Arthur Dayne's "Our knees do not bend easily."

The parley is followed by a fight, though it's instigated by a third party. As Mance rides off for battle, he says "Varamyr, stay and see that no harm comes to Dalla." Rhaegar could have given a similar order to the Kingsguard when he left the ToJ.

There's a red star in the sky, which is rising rather than falling:

Varamyr's scream brings Val out of the tent, and she announces that the birth has begun.

There may have been a second woman at the ToJ who also fulfilled the role of midwife.

The chapter ends with Jon entering the tent, just like Daenerys' chapter:

Dalla dies giving birth to Mance's son, and due to the child's king's blood, Jon later sends him away to be passed off as Sam's bastard, paralleling what happened to Jon under RLJ. We first heard about the "two kings to wake the dragon" idea in reference to Mance and his son as well.

Also, shortly before all this, Tormund mentions to Jon that Longspear Ryk stole his daughter away from him and her brothers:

Like at a Tower of Joy?

There might be more connections, but this is what stood out to me upon re-reading the chapter.

I'm impressed by the levels of mirroring and relations the posters in this thread have discovered.

What a writer GRRM is.

 

On 10/3/2016 at 6:24 AM, Lady Dyanna said:

...Then you have Queen Helaena who either jumps or is pushed to her death from Maegor's Holdfast. I think I've now found a total of SEVEN women throughout all of these books including D&E that have either jumped or been pushed from a tower and that doesn't even start taking into account the women that were either giving birth, pregnant or protecting children in a tower or tent.

 

Choice!

That makes pushing a child out of a tower a georgish twist on that ancient trope.

 

[Seams]

On 11/9/2016 at 0:35 PM, Kingmonkey said:

Might the Others have their own version of those prophecies that warn them of a great villain who will stop them from bringing back the night? Might they also have concluded that villain will come from the Targ line?

This is what I've been thinking lately, too. The "hero" of the story is in the eye of the beholder; one man's hero is another man's villain. These passages from the AGoT prologue hint that the Others might have their own perspective on the Westeros legends:

The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took . . . In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so think that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

. . . When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain. . . .

Then Royce's parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar's fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red.

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. "For Robert!" he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other's parry was almost lazy.

When the blades touched, the steel shattered.

The forging of Lightbringer involved exposing the newly-forged blade to water, then the heart of a lion, then the heart of Nissa Nissa. Here we have a sword that is like moonlight on water, like an animal screaming in pain and then, finally, it comes in contact with the blood of an ancient house. The sword seems to take on a new strength after Waymar Royce's blood is on the blade. Instead of the high-pitched sound the two blades had made moments before when they came into contact, now the ice sword shatters the steel sword. The Royce blood seems to have been the magic ingredient the Other was seeking.

The "razor high" wordplay (highlighted in blue) may reinforce the Azor Ahai allusion.

For what it's worth, this scene also seems to foreshadow the duel between uncle Brandon and Petyr Baelish. Note the reference to the "mocking" words of the Other, alluding to Littlefinger's personal mockingbird sigil. In that duel, Petyr will be wounded and blood will well up through his mail and his fingers, while Brandon (blood of the First Men) will emerge the victor after Petyr concedes. Petyr holds out, however, until Brandon steps in the river. I wondered why that was the moment he chose to end the duel, and I now think it could be part of Baelish's long-term strategy to "forge" his own heroic status: force the Stark heir to step in the water, kill the "lion" at Joffrey's wedding feast (if you believe Petyr was behind that death), and push his wife, Lysa, out the Moon Door for the hat trick. Having achieved those three necessary steps, does Littlefinger now have an unbeatable "sword" that allows him to achieve his larger goals in the kingdom?

Another allusion and inversion here might arise from the sudden arrival of Robert Baratheon in Ser Waymar's last-second fury and evoking of Robert. Does this scene also refer to Robert's one-on-one combat with Rhaegar? If so, that means there is probably a larger comparison between the betrothal of Catelyn to Brandon / Ned, and the betrothal of Lyanna to Robert. Catelyn was dutiful and married the man her father chose for her; Lyanna, for whatever reason, did not end up with Robert. The devil is in the details, I'm sure.

On 11/13/2016 at 2:08 AM, IceFire125 said:

“Your lordship knows best, I am sure. Might I ask about these corpses in the ice cells? They make the men uneasy. And to keep them under guard? Surely that is a waste of two good men, unless you fear that they …”

“… will rise? I pray they do.”
Septon Cellador paled. “Seven save us.” Wine dribbled down his chin in a red line. “Lord Commander, wights are monstrous, unnatural creatures. Abominations before the eyes of the gods. You … you cannot mean to try to talk with them?”
“Can they talk?” asked Jon Snow. “I think not, but I cannot claim to know. Monsters they may be, but they were men before they died. How much remains? The one I slew was intent on killing Lord Commander Mormont. Plainly it remembered who he was and where to find him.” Maester Aemon would have grasped his purpose, Jon did not doubt; Sam Tarly would have been terrified, but he would have understood as well. “My lord father used to tell me that a man must know his enemies. We understand little of the wights and less about the Others. We need to learn.” - ADWD

I'm glad you highlighted this because it hadn't struck me before how strongly it alludes to Jaime seeking out Ser Ilyn in his filthy cell below the Red Keep. Ser Ilyn is the jailer, but his living conditions are like those of a prisoner. Jaime wants Ser Ilyn both for his silence and for his skill with a sword as Jaime learns how to fight with his left arm. Like the Other that slayed Ser Waymar, Ser Ilyn wielded an "Ice sword" when he executed Ned Stark.

It's interesting that bastard children are referred to as abominations and here the Septon refers to wights as abominations. Jon is a bastard and Jaime is the father of bastards. Both of them seek out these outsiders - the wights and Ser Ilyn - to learn from them.

[Prof. Cecily]

On 6/9/2017 at 2:18 PM, Prof. Cecily said:

You've given me a lot to think about!

Quote

  On 8/25/2015 at 4:11 PM, Kingmonkey said:

It all starts with the Tower of Joy. The language Martin uses in Eddard's dream is unlike almost anything else in the books. It's a dream, sure, but there's more to it than that. The language is richly poetic in a way Martin rarely employs, and the dialogue is highly unnatural and ritualistic. Everything about the way that it's written screams out that it's highly important. The Tower of Joy scene is presented to us as a mystery, and seems to have a connection to the central underlying theme of fire and ice. People have spent a lot of time trying to analyse this vitally central Tower of Joy scene, but generally miss an important point: the events at the Tower of Joy are not unique.

Throughout the text are a number of echoes of the ToJ, scenes that at first sight do not seem related, but share a sometimes very clear connection. When we start to look any pattern, it's inevitable that we will find them everywhere. Finding patterns and parallels is the brain's favourite trick. For that reason I urge caution with what you're about to read, but I think you'll agree that at least most of this is real, because it just fits a little too well not to be. I'm not the first person to have picked up on at least some of these echoes. Plenty of people have looked at the ideas discussed here before. Not everything is by any means new, but if anyone has brought all this together before, I haven't seen it. It's worth doing, because it helps to give context to a lot of disparate ideas and theories, and may explain a number of puzzling events in the books.



2.Cersei's dream

The next echo I'll bring up is the most distant echo, but also the most obvious, because the language Martin uses tells us very clearly that it's an echo.
 
 
Cersei's dream, where she recalls her visit to Maggy the Frog, seems to bear little connection to the ToJ, but reproduces a lot of the language of Ned's dream. We have to look a bit closer to see the parallels.

Cersei and her two companions make three; they are no Kingsguards, but they are wearing cloaks. In an odd inversion of the ToJ, the three are the ones trying to get in, rather than the ones guarding. We get "In the dream the pavilions were shadowed, and the knights and serving men they passed were made of mist," obviously reminiscent of Ned's "In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist." There is no tower here, instead they enter a tent. There's someone lying in the bed in that tent, but it's a maegi rather than a dying girl though the tent does smell of death. As at the Tower of Joy, there are four questions asked, and there is blood. We're given a final echo with "But in the dream her face dissolved, melting away into ribbons of grey mist until all that remained were two squinting yellow eyes, the eyes of death," compared to the ToJ dream's "A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. "

So many of the details are different here that it's a distant, if obvious, echo. It might tell us something more about the original though. Cersei's questions are about the children she believes she will have with Rhaegar. Although she is one of the three, Cersei is a kind of substitute for Lyanna. Lyanna stole both Cersei's kings from her, and that makes Cersei a kind of failed Lyanna. Perhaps then this echo, despite the obviously similar language, is an example of a failure of that ritual, or cycle of events, to unfold.

 

I'd not caught this before. It put a new level of meaning and relation to the events remembered/dreamed of.

Quote

 On 8/26/2015 at 7:55 AM, J. Stargaryen said:

...Also: “He dreamt an old dream of a hovel by the sea, three dogs whimpering, a woman’s tears.” - ADwD, Prologue. Given the nature of that prologue, I think it could be very relevant to what you're onto here.

 

Good catch. Dreams and dreams and dreams.

Quote

On 8/29/2016 at 4:05 AM, Shmedricko said:

There is another one of these echoes in Chapter 73 of ASOS, when Jon is sent beyond the Wall to kill Mance Rayder.

Jon, along with Tormund, who is mounted on a horse, arrives at the wildling camp and finds three people standing outside a tent:

Compare the bolded to: "They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind."

Mance invites Jon inside the tent (possibly supporting the idea that the KG let Ned in the ToJ), where there is a pregnant woman about to give birth. There is also a brazier, as there was in Mirri Maz Duur's and Maggy the Frog's tents. Mance and Jon parley, with Mance trying to convince Jon to let him and the wildlings pass through the Wall, and at one point Mance says "We will not kneel to you," similar to Arthur Dayne's "Our knees do not bend easily."

The parley is followed by a fight, though it's instigated by a third party. As Mance rides off for battle, he says "Varamyr, stay and see that no harm comes to Dalla." Rhaegar could have given a similar order to the Kingsguard when he left the ToJ.

There's a red star in the sky, which is rising rather than falling:

Varamyr's scream brings Val out of the tent, and she announces that the birth has begun.

There may have been a second woman at the ToJ who also fulfilled the role of midwife.

The chapter ends with Jon entering the tent, just like Daenerys' chapter:

Dalla dies giving birth to Mance's son, and due to the child's king's blood, Jon later sends him away to be passed off as Sam's bastard, paralleling what happened to Jon under RLJ. We first heard about the "two kings to wake the dragon" idea in reference to Mance and his son as well.

Also, shortly before all this, Tormund mentions to Jon that Longspear Ryk stole his daughter away from him and her brothers:

Like at a Tower of Joy?

There might be more connections, but this is what stood out to me upon re-reading the chapter.

I'm impressed by the levels of mirroring and relations the posters in this thread have discovered.

 

What a writer GRRM is.

Quote

 

On 10/3/2016 at 6:24 AM, Lady Dyanna said:

...Then you have Queen Helaena who either jumps or is pushed to her death from Maegor's Holdfast. I think I've now found a total of SEVEN women throughout all of these books including D&E that have either jumped or been pushed from a tower and that doesn't even start taking into account the women that were either giving birth, pregnant or protecting children in a tower or tent.

Choice!

That makes pushing a child out of a tower a georgish twist on that ancient trope.

 

These three dreams are featured and discussed  in Westeros History's video commentary "Dreams and Dreamers (mild TWOW spoilers)" a

at 41:37

The video is over 2 hours and worth hearing.

[Prof. Cecily]

On 6/9/2017 at 7:14 PM, Seams said:

This is what I've been thinking lately, too. The "hero" of the story is in the eye of the beholder; one man's hero is another man's villain. These passages from the AGoT prologue hint that the Others might have their own perspective on the Westeros legends:

The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took . . . In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so think that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

. . . When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain. . . .

Then Royce's parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar's fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red.

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. "For Robert!" he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other's parry was almost lazy.

When the blades touched, the steel shattered.

The forging of Lightbringer involved exposing the newly-forged blade to water, then the heart of a lion, then the heart of Nissa Nissa. Here we have a sword that is like moonlight on water, like an animal screaming in pain and then, finally, it comes in contact with the blood of an ancient house. The sword seems to take on a new strength after Waymar Royce's blood is on the blade. Instead of the high-pitched sound the two blades had made moments before when they came into contact, now the ice sword shatters the steel sword. The Royce blood seems to have been the magic ingredient the Other was seeking.

The "razor high" wordplay (highlighted in blue) may reinforce the Azor Ahai allusion.

For what it's worth, this scene also seems to foreshadow the duel between uncle Brandon and Petyr Baelish. Note the reference to the "mocking" words of the Other, alluding to Littlefinger's personal mockingbird sigil. In that duel, Petyr will be wounded and blood will well up through his mail and his fingers, while Brandon (blood of the First Men) will emerge the victor after Petyr concedes. Petyr holds out, however, until Brandon steps in the river. I wondered why that was the moment he chose to end the duel, and I now think it could be part of Baelish's long-term strategy to "forge" his own heroic status: force the Stark heir to step in the water, kill the "lion" at Joffrey's wedding feast (if you believe Petyr was behind that death), and push his wife, Lysa, out the Moon Door for the hat trick. Having achieved those three necessary steps, does Littlefinger now have an unbeatable "sword" that allows him to achieve his larger goals in the kingdom?

Another allusion and inversion here might arise from the sudden arrival of Robert Baratheon in Ser Waymar's last-second fury and evoking of Robert. Does this scene also refer to Robert's one-on-one combat with Rhaegar? If so, that means there is probably a larger comparison between the betrothal of Catelyn to Brandon / Ned, and the betrothal of Lyanna to Robert. Catelyn was dutiful and married the man her father chose for her; Lyanna, for whatever reason, did not end up with Robert. The devil is in the details, I'm sure.

I'm glad you highlighted this because it hadn't struck me before how strongly it alludes to Jaime seeking out Ser Ilyn in his filthy cell below the Red Keep. Ser Ilyn is the jailer, but his living conditions are like those of a prisoner. Jaime wants Ser Ilyn both for his silence and for his skill with a sword as Jaime learns how to fight with his left arm. Like the Other that slayed Ser Waymar, Ser Ilyn wielded an "Ice sword" when he executed Ned Stark.

It's interesting that bastard children are referred to as abominations and here the Septon refers to wights as abominations. Jon is a bastard and Jaime is the father of bastards. Both of them seek out these outsiders - the wights and Ser Ilyn - to learn from them.

As always, a pleasure to read your unique manner of seeing these texts!

[Kingmonkey]

On 2017-6-9 at 6:14 PM, Seams said:

The sword seems to take on a new strength after Waymar Royce's blood is on the blade. Instead of the high-pitched sound the two blades had made moments before when they came into contact, now the ice sword shatters the steel sword. The Royce blood seems to have been the magic ingredient the Other was seeking.

Agreed. You should have quoted a little further on, for a revealing passage:

Quote

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

A Game of Thrones, Prologue

The Other's sword isn't capable of easily shattering Waymar Royce's blade at first, because we are told "Again and again the swords met...". After it is blooded, the Other says something "mocking", and shatters Royce's blade with a parry that is "almost lazy". This certainly seems to point to the idea that the Other blade has been empowered -- and in the passage I quote above, we see all the others joining in AFTER Royce is defeated -- they too are blooding their blades. I don't think this is simply a slaughter, I think it's a ritual. It may be that finding a Royce north of the Wall is the reason why the Others are back.

[The Chequered Raven]

Absolutely awesome!

One starts to look if there's a sentence which has NO parallel, inversion, hint, sign...