All bias aside, who do you think is the best overall human being in the story?

[Forelver]

   For all around best, I agree with the OP-Davos. He's a smuggler so that makes him not perfect but who in this story is? He's brave, loves his family, tries to do a good job but also tries to do the right thing even though it puts him in danger. Puts the welfare of the individual first, especially with children, loved, loved, loved what he did for Edric Storm.

[Cas Stark]

I could say that same thing about other people's opinion...

 

Some opinions are backed by better facts and analysis than others. Some opinions are just that, opinions, that are based on emotion or other reasons and are not grounded in any observable facts.  The former will always be taken more seriously than the latter.

[sweetsunray]

I don't mind my opinion being discussed but when it goes arround and arround in circles and I repeat it many times over it gets tiresome at some point you gotta say "everyone can have their own opinion and that's that"

 

We're going in circles, because you repeat the same flawed arguments and inventions over and over again.

[INCBlackbird]

 

And if you do, most wouldn't hold their hands high and cry "But I have a right to my opinion even if my arguments are completely garbled" when they're called on it. If I truly believe it's purely an opinion thread and I don't care about the arguments for it, I simply say so. 

considering what I've seen on this forum I wouldn't be so sure.

[BrandonStark's bastard]

Edumure, Brienne, Maester Aemon, Maester Luwin, Lady Smallwood and Sam. 

[INCBlackbird]

 

We're going in circles, because you repeat the same flawed arguments and inventions over and over again.

if you think my arguments are flawed why do you keep asking for them?

[INCBlackbird]

 

Some opinions are backed by better facts and analysis than others. Some opinions are just that, opinions, that are based on emotion or other reasons and are not grounded in any observable facts.  The former will always be taken more seriously than the latter.

my opinions are back by facts but when I bring them up people start putting words into my mouth that I never said so I kinda stopped trying at this point. if you don't agree, than that's that, you don't agree. I'm gonna stop this now because it's not going anywhere, I've said what I had to say many times over and there's no point in repeating it.

[Nictarion]

That is your opinion, I don't agree, I'm not allowed to have my own opinion on the matter?

Sure you can, and everyone else in the thread can express how ridiculous they find it.

[sweetsunray]

considering what I've seen on this forum I wouldn't be so sure.

 

I've done it once - "my opinion, and I'm not discussing why", but that was very obviously a thread that's akin to what flavor of ice cream you like. There's no point discussing taste or likes. I thoroughly enjoy Jaime as a character for example. His chapters are like Haghen Daz chocolate ice cream to me.   

[Cas Stark]

you may think it's flawed, that's your right, I don't think so. I also don't think he's a 1st degree murderer far from, but if you want to consider him that, go right ahead.

 

to the first thing: everyone is afraid, if they say they're not they're lying. people like all the time. and to the second thing, I don't care whether or not Cersei was all about the benefits of the marriage, her father made the decision, not cersei, so it was a forced marriage. women should be able to decide who they marry themselves don't you agree?

 

Far from it?  The very best you could conclude is that it's second degree murder, and that is a huge stretch and giving the benefit of the doubt, considering that he obviously formed the intent to kill when he threw Bran out of the window, which is all that is needed for first degree murder. 

 

If Cersei at the time didn't oppose the decision on her husband then she wasn't forced.  It's true, Tywin would almost certainly have forced her if she refused, but she did not refuse, she was willing.

[sweetsunray]

if you think my arguments are flawed why do you keep asking for them?

 

I don't keep asking for them. I'm countering them, with more factual foundation.

[Lady Sharya]

I think people should be put in prison only to keep them away from society, I have the controversial opinion that it shouldn't be meant as a punishment (it would still be considered a punishment because they would still be locked up and that way people would still be afraid of the consequences if they did anything wrong which would prevent some) Because I don't think punishment is gonna help. When someone stole something for example, because they were of the mindset off "life was super unfair to me and I get to take something back from the rich because I didn't deserve this, they don't deserve it either" (a mindset I obviously don't agree with but can understand) and then they get sent to prison, treated horribley, judged, humiliated, told they're a bad person and when they get out they can't get a job because of the prejudice of people, why would they change that mindset? In my opinion, people who go to prison should be helped, if they are helped to make their life better they'll have no reason to commit crime. Of course there's exceptions, there's people you simply can't help anymore but in case it's possible this is my opinion of what shoule be done.
They should be held accountable for their actions yes, and I do judge character's actions, I just don't like to judge the character for commiting those actions.

I'm not surprised by anything I read in certain poster's posts, but this post truly wins them all.:wideeyed:
Luckily the judicial system, at least in the US does try to do this (to a degree) with juvenile offenders....because they tend to think like you. However, adults are held more copable because they SHOULD know better.;) Punishement works. Jaime is evidence in the book of this. He only begins to rethink his childish moral compass when he gets his hand cut off.

[sweetsunray]

you may think it's flawed, that's your right, I don't think so. I also don't think he's a 1st degree murderer far from, but if you want to consider him that, go right ahead.

 

to the first thing: everyone is afraid, if they say they're not they're lying. people like all the time. and to the second thing, I don't care whether or not Cersei was all about the benefits of the marriage, her father made the decision, not cersei, so it was a forced marriage. women should be able to decide who they marry themselves don't you agree?

You keep insisting this, and because you don't believe that there are people "who are not afraid to die" you claim they lie. So, basically when people don't conform to your projection they're lying, because "everybody" lies. WTF!!! So, basically you're now claiming I lied a couple of pages ago when I said that from personal experience in the life threatening situations I've been (I've been assaulted, I nearly drowned twice) I am not afraid of death. You probably think I'm lying to myself. Does that mental gymnastic behaviour not contradict your stance you can't know what another person feels or how they think when you are not that other person?

 

It's this type of constructions that I call inventions. You make one general assumption based on yourself, claim it must apply on everybody else, and when the evidence doesn't suit your claim, you'll invent something else to deny the evidence.

 

If Tywin hadn't made the decision, Cersei would have volunteered to marry him anyhow.

[Orphalesion]

 I don't care whether or not Cersei was all about the benefits of the marriage, her father made the decision, not cersei, so it was a forced marriage. women should be able to decide who they marry themselves don't you agree?

 Every person should be allowed to choose whom they marry, but it simply isn't that way in Westeros. None of the noble female characters we meet chose her husband; Cat was forced to marry Ned, Lysa was forced to marry John Arryn, Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion, and Margaery was forced to marry Renly, Joffrey and Tommen because of her father's ambitions.

Arianne has the right to refuse husbands because in Dorne women are more equal to men, If House Lannister was Dornish, Cersei would have been tywin's heir and never would have been made to marry Robb, but they are not Dronish and all wishing and wanting won't make them Dornish or Tragaryen for that matter. 

 

It's easy to be a saint in paradise, in a perfect world, but the world is not perfect. 

 

And Ned pretty much offered Cersei a way to be permanently free of Robert to go to Essos and start a new life with the person seh claims to love, Jaime and she refused and chose to assasinate Robb instead.

[Megz]

I posted something, i saw it posted and minutes ago it just disappeared. Hel please, what might be the cause for that? I am sure it wasn't violating any rules? whoever deleted my post can they please specify why? Not that it matters so much, but i have spent time and effort on it and I would like to know reasons for posts deleted or removed please.  :bawl: :bawl:

[sweetsunray]

I posted something, i saw it posted and minutes ago it just disappeared. Hel please, what might be the cause for that? I am sure it wasn't violating any rules? whoever deleted my post can they please specify why? Not that it matters so much, but i have spent time and effort on it and I would like to know reasons for posts deleted or removed please.  :bawl: :bawl:

 

Sorry, haven't seen it. Sometimes there's a lag, when you press "post", especially if while you were writing the post you also get messages like "7 new posts". Best thing to do is perform at least CTRL-C of the long post you wrote, before refreshing or clicking to another page.

[Avlonnic]

I posted something, i saw it posted and minutes ago it just disappeared. Hel please, what might be the cause for that? I am sure it wasn't violating any rules? whoever deleted my post can they please specify why? Not that it matters so much, but i have spent time and effort on it and I would like to know reasons for posts deleted or removed please.  :bawl: :bawl:

 

When this happens to me, it is *usually* the situation sweetsunray describes above.  It is one of the reasons you will see duplicate posts from some people - their post was delayed so they hit post again, resulting in a double post.  In the past few months, I have had more of these situations so I frequently copy before hitting post...but not always.  You might look under your profile for your content to ensure it posted to the correct thread.  Good luck.

[FacelessDude]

Davos is an obvious yes, as many people on here agree. But there are definitely more characters to consider. I for one think Ser Barristan Selmy is an overall morally good person too.

[INCBlackbird]

You keep insisting this, and because you don't believe that there are people "who are not afraid to die" you claim they lie. So, basically when people don't conform to your projection they're lying, because "everybody" lies. WTF!!! So, basically you're now claiming I lied a couple of pages ago when I said that from personal experience in the life threatening situations I've been (I've been assaulted, I nearly drowned twice) I am not afraid of death. You probably think I'm lying to myself. Does that mental gymnastic behaviour not contradict your stance you can't know what another person feels or how they think when you are not that other person?

 

It's this type of constructions that I call inventions. You make one general assumption based on yourself, claim it must apply on everybody else, and when the evidence doesn't suit your claim, you'll invent something else to deny the evidence.

 

If Tywin hadn't made the decision, Cersei would have volunteered to marry him anyhow.

Fear is a natural emotion animals are afraid too because it's a survival instinct, I didn't say you were lying when you said you didn't panic, but panic is not the same as fear. people can of course be pragmatic in situations where others would panic, because we're all different, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't be afraid. Do you really think that a healthy human being can be born without the ability to be afraid? it's something we needed to survive and sometimes still do. It's what makes adrenaline pump through our veins when we need it.

[INCBlackbird]

 Every person should be allowed to choose whom they marry, but it simply isn't that way in Westeros. None of the noble female characters we meet chose her husband; Cat was forced to marry Ned, Lysa was forced to marry John Arryn, Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion, and Margaery was forced to marry Renly, Joffrey and Tommen because of her father's ambitions.

Arianne has the right to refuse husbands because in Dorne women are more equal to men, If House Lannister was Dornish, Cersei would have been tywin's heir and never would have been made to marry Robb, but they are not Dronish and all wishing and wanting won't make them Dornish or Tragaryen for that matter. 

 

It's easy to be a saint in paradise, in a perfect world, but the world is not perfect. 

 

And Ned pretty much offered Cersei a way to be permanently free of Robert to go to Essos and start a new life with the person seh claims to love, Jaime and she refused and chose to assasinate Robb instead.

exactly and I don't consider that a morally right thing so I also have no moral obligation when any of those people who are forced to marry someone against their will would rather fuck someone else. I'm made this argument many times...

 

and yes, it is easy to be a saint in paradise, that doesn't mean that person would be a saint in a non perfect world. That's my whole point, sometimes we're in situations where choices are difficult and I don't expect someone to make a perfect choice in that situation, neither is a person who never is in a situation like that but would have made the same choice any better than the person who is.

 

yep, and Cersei should have taken it, but she didn't because she was too arrogant I'm discussing Jaime though. I don't believe Jaime was given that same choice because he wasn't there at the time...