What is Jon Snow's real name?

[Tywin Tytosson]

15 hours ago, Tini said:

It doesn't say in the visions that Rhaegar has to name all his sons Aegon, does it? They didn't mention names much, if at all.
Anyway, while there may be examples of naming one's second son after one's first son if  the firstborn son is dead, there are none in which both sons live.

 

But both did not live.  By the time Jon was born, everybody in Westeros (with the exception of Varys) would have believed Egg dead.

 

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When Rhaegar died, his son Aegon by Elia was still alive.

True.  But by the time Jon was born, that Egg was either dead or believe to be so.  Didn't Ned go straight to KL after the Trident?  Then to the TOJ afterwards?  When Ned got the KL, Tywin had taken the city, Jamie had KOed Aerys, and Gregor had taken out Elia and both of her children.  Jon was born when Ned arrived at the TOJ or thereabouts, was he not?

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  Rhaegar certainly didn't name his second son Aegon, and he didn't intend to name him Aegon, either. He believed in the prophesy: the Dragon has three heads. His son by Lyanna was not meant to replace a head of the Dragon, he was meant to be its third head. With a name of his own, so that there would be no confusion.

This is where we disagree.  I believe that Rheagar believed that he would have a son who would be the Prince Who Was Promised.  Perhaps for some reason he wanted this son named Aegon (Lord of Fire ?).  The reference to the 3rd was in Dany's vision.  I'd bet Rhaegar didn't know about the 3 heads nor of any Dragons.  The 3rd head was some kind of prophecy or message.  Somebody else will be the 3rd rider.

[disclaimer : if GRRMs has said otherwise, I am not aware of it]

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I don't see why Lyanna would name her son Aegon on her own - she would've named him Rhaegar - in memory of his father. Or she would've named him Rickard or Brandon, in memory of her own father or brother. 

Why not?  Perhaps Lyanna believed in the Prophecy herself.  Maybe is was she who chose Aegon, knowing/believing at that time that the1st one was dead.  I doubt that she would have named the boy Rhaegar.  Not at that point -- that would be a sure way to guarantee that Robert would execute him.  Rikard, Brandon, or Ned.  Of these, Brandon may be the best fit. Jon's real name is at least syllables, with an -on on the end (at least to my hearing )     Brandon is a name linked to the fight against the WW.

 

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If Lyanna had named her son Rickard, or Brandon - or even Jon -, Ned Stark would not have felt compelled to change the boy's name. All 3 were good names for a Stark. If Ned chose his name, Lyanna either didn't name her son, or her chosen name was inacceptable to the new government, to Robert Baratheon. 

That would be it.  A Valryian/Targaryen name would almost guarantee Jon's early demise.

Ned chose 'Jon'.

 

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Aegon, as a name, might have been borderline, but still acceptable - it was a known fact that Ned Stark was upset with Elia's fate and that of her children. People would've considered it very much Ned if he had named his bastard Aegon in protest because Robert let their murder go unpunished. 

Nah.  Ned would have known that would upset Robert and insult (perhaps) the new Queen's family.  It would also draw too much attention to Jon and his birth.

 

 

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Any other Targaryen name, however, would've been unacceptable - especially Aerys, or Rhaegar.
I think Lyanna named her son Rhaegar. 

As mentioned above, I disagree.    

I believe that she named him Aegon.

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P.S. If Rhaegar made Lyanna promise to give a special name to their child, according to prophesies he believed in, I think that name would have been Visenya.

 

mmm... more likely Viserys.  Isn't that the masculine form?

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He already had an Aegon (after Aegon the Conqueror),

When he (Rheagar) died, yes.  By the time Jon was born (or named), no.

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and a Rhaenys (after Aegon the Conqueror's younger sister-wife). He was still lacking a Visenya (after Aegon the Conqueror's older sister). Alas, Rhaegar never learned that he got the prophesy wrong. Again.

True that.  Definitely misinterpreted it.  He did have a son who does appear to be the Prince Who Was Promised.  Maybe not the one that he thought it would be at first.   I do wonder if the 'Prince who was promised' actually has 2 parts -- male and female.  Jon and Dany.

That is a fascinating and somewhat typical occurrence in this series -- those who actively try to follow to implement (or force) a propecy get it wrong (eg : Rhaegar, Jeaharys (?), Aerys, Melisandre).  Those who do not (eg: Dany, Jon) seem to end up fulfilling it.

[Tini]

On ‎09‎.‎11‎.‎2016 at 7:27 AM, Thror Baratheon said:

*snip*

You write everyone believed little Aegon to be dead by the time Jon was born - quite so. But Rhaegar died before Aegon did, or Jon was born. When  Rhaegar died, *both* his children were still alive. Therefore he would not have considered naming his unborn child Aegon. He could not name his third child after he died. And Lyanna had no reason to name her child Aegon. She would've considered it an unlucky name. The prophesy could no longer come true (in the form Rhaegar expected ) because two of three heads of the Dragon had died in KL.

Yes,  Viserys is a masculine form of Visenya. But I suspect Rhaegar expected another daughter, a Visenya to complete the Dragon, a complete rebirth of Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives. Which means Rhaegar, blended by prophesy, would only consider a female name for his as yet unborn child - Visenya. And it would've been up to Lyanna to decide her child's name when she discovered that Visenya wasn't suitable.

If she discovered it. She may never have known she gave birth to a boy. Ned may have made that discovery after Lyanna made him promise he'd protect her Visenya. After Lyanna died. In which case he would've picked the name for his nephew.

I think Jon becomes  Aegon in the show because there is now an Aegon featuring quite prominently in the books, an Aegon the show failed to include. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on his name.

[Tywin Tytosson]

10 hours ago, Tini said:

You write everyone believed little Aegon to be dead by the time Jon was born - quite so. But Rhaegar died before Aegon did, or Jon was born. When  Rhaegar died, *both* his children were still alive. Therefore he would not have considered naming his unborn child Aegon. He could not name his third child after he died. And Lyanna had no reason to name her child Aegon. She would've considered it an unlucky name. The prophesy could no longer come true (in the form Rhaegar expected ) because two of three heads of the Dragon had died in KL

And this is where we disagree.  I believe that Rhaegar could have considered naming the unborn child Aegon.  And, yes, he certainly could have named his 3rd child Aegon.  Unusual?  You bet.  But possible?  sure!  If it has to come down to it, he could refer to them with different nicknames or give then different 'extra' name.  For example : Aegon Eliasson and Aegon Lyannasson.  I have a friend named exactly the same as his father.  They ended up differing themselves by their Confirmation Names.  And one goes by the full name, the other a shortened abbreviation.

That being said, we also disagree as to Lyanna deciding upon Aegon.  Unlucky?  Hmmm..... If Lyanna also believed in the Prophesy, she would (in my view) definitely have reason to name her son Aegon.  

Also ... 'a dragon has 3 heads' was said to Dany.  Not to Rhaegar.  That was part of _her_ vision.  Rhaegar was into the Prince Who Was Promised wasn't he?

 

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Yes,  Viserys is a masculine form of Visenya. But I suspect Rhaegar expected another daughter, a Visenya to complete the Dragon, a complete rebirth of Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives. Which means Rhaegar, blended by prophesy, would only consider a female name for his as yet unborn child - Visenya. And it would've been up to Lyanna to decide her child's name when she discovered that Visenya wasn't suitable.

See above.  That woud still fit with what view/belief.    :-)

question -- why do u think that Rheagar was naming for the '3 heads of the dragon'? 

What about Lyanna trying to keep the Prophecy re. the Prince alive and honored?

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If she discovered it. She may never have known she gave birth to a boy. Ned may have made that discovery after Lyanna made him promise he'd protect her Visenya. After Lyanna died. In which case he would've picked the name for his nephew.

I think Jon becomes  Aegon in the show because there is now an Aegon featuring quite prominently in the books, an Aegon the show failed to include. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on his name.

That last part may very well be true.  It may, in the end, be a show creation or change.  GRRM may have a different name in mind.

Ja...we'll have to just agree to disagree.   :-)

But a nice exchange and discussion nonetheless, Tini.

Let me raise a [my] cup to you.  Pros't!

 

[Tini]

On ‎11‎.‎11‎.‎2016 at 5:29 AM, Thror Baratheon said:

And this is where we disagree.  I believe that Rhaegar could have considered naming the unborn child Aegon.  And, yes, he certainly could have named his 3rd child Aegon.  Unusual?  You bet.  But possible?  sure!  If it has to come down to it, he could refer to them with different nicknames or give then different 'extra' name.  For example : Aegon Eliasson and Aegon Lyannasson.  I have a friend named exactly the same as his father.  They ended up differing themselves by their Confirmation Names.  And one goes by the full name, the other a shortened Abbreviation.

That being said, we also disagree as to Lyanna deciding upon Aegon.  Unlucky?  Hmmm..... If Lyanna also believed in the Prophesy, she would (in my view) definitely have reason to name her son Aegon.  

Also ... 'a dragon has 3 heads' was said to Dany.  Not to Rhaegar.  That was part of _her_ vision.  Rhaegar was into the Prince Who Was Promised wasn't he?

See above.  That woud still fit with what view/belief.    :-)

question -- why do u think that Rheagar was naming for the '3 heads of the dragon'? 

What about Lyanna trying to keep the Prophecy re. the Prince alive and honored?

That last part may very well be true.  It may, in the end, be a show creation or change.  GRRM may have a different name in mind.

Ja...we'll have to just agree to disagree.   :-)

But a nice exchange and discussion nonetheless, Tini.

Let me raise a [my] cup to you.  Pros't!

 

It was Rhaegar who said the Dragon has three heads in Dany's vision. He didn't speak to Dany, he spoke to Elia and Aegon. I think the vision showed Dany a past event. Rhaegar was into the Prince prophesy - but that doesn't mean he didn't believe in the 3 heads as well. Originally he believed he was the prophesied prince, but he came to believe that it was referring to his children. And there had to be three, as the dragon has three heads according to family lore.

I don't believe Rhaegar named Jon, and I have no idea who he named his children for. It's a fact, though, that his children by Elia were named Rhaenys and Aegon. And that Aegon the Conqueror's sister-wives were named Visenya and Rhaenys. Rhaegar was very interested in family history. You brought up that he believed in the prophesies. I went from there.

I don't think Lyanna was into the Targaryen prophesies. She was a daughter of the North, grew up in different traditions. She didn't run away with Rhaegar because she believed in his prophesies, she fled from an unwanted marriage. I think she would've named her son after someone she loved, as a statement of that love.

The prophesy will remain intact whatever name she gave her child - as long as the child lived. Actually, it will remain intact as long as Rhaella's line continues. As it currently does in Daenerys, probably Jon, and maybe in Jon Connington's Aegon.

[Yukle]

Not to get all philosophical, but what's in a name?

If Jon is always called Jon, even if Lyanna named him Jahaerys or Aegon or McBumblefart, Jon is what he goes by. Ned named him Jon, even if his name was meant to be something else.

Kind of like how people change their names sometimes when they become monarchs, or pope. Their old name isn't their name any more.

[Tywin Tytosson]

On 11/18/2016 at 10:03 AM, Tini said:

It was Rhaegar who said the Dragon has three heads in Dany's vision.

Yep. in Dany's vision.  The visions did not appear to be literal, accurate history.  

 

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 He didn't speak to Dany, he spoke to Elia and Aegon. I think the vision showed Dany a past event.

 

This is where we disagree, and interpret the vision differently.  I do not think the same.

 

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Rhaegar was into the Prince prophesy - but that doesn't mean he didn't believe in the 3 heads as well. Originally he believed he was the prophesied prince, but he came to believe that it was referring to his children. And there had to be three, as the dragon has three heads according to family lore.

Oh... very true.  There is no hard evidence to my knowledge that he did, though.  The Prince prophecy has nothing to do with the three heads.

It's about the return of Azor Ahai/Eldric Stormchaser and the one person who would unify humankind in the Great War.

The last bolded statement/phrase.... can you point me to the Targaryen lore re. this?  I don't know that it would be family lore.  Aegon happened to have 3 dragons for the Conquest.  The Targ Sigil remembers this w/ the 3 headed dragon symbol.  Even it this was family lore (which I'll admit to doubting), we would disagree on whether Rhaegar tied it into the Prince prophecy and naming his children.

 

 

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I don't believe Rhaegar named Jon, and I have no idea who he named his children for. It's a fact, though, that his children by Elia were named Rhaenys and Aegon. And that Aegon the Conqueror's sister-wives were named Visenya and Rhaenys. Rhaegar was very interested in family history. You brought up that he believed in the prophesies. I went from there.

Yep.. His children by Elia were Rhaenys and Aegon.  Mmmm... I don't see how Aegon the Conquerors wives names would figure into the 3-heads vision and naming.  And, as I mentioned, I don't think that he even knew/thought about that.  Once the son was named Aegon, either her or Elia just 'honored' the memory of the Conqueror. 

 

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I don't think Lyanna was into the Targaryen prophesies. She was a daughter of the North, grew up in different traditions. She didn't run away with Rhaegar because she believed in his prophesies, she fled from an unwanted marriage. I think she would've named her son after someone she loved, as a statement of that love.

Maybe or maybe not.  She could have accepted them after being with Rheagar.  She could not have.  Don't know, really.  She could have honored Rhaegar by giving their son the name of Rhaegars (believed to be) dead eldest son.  I've known people to do similar -- name later children after an earlier but deceased child.

 

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The prophesy will remain intact whatever name she gave her child - as long as the child lived. Actually, it will remain intact as long as Rhaella's line continues. As it currently does in Daenerys, probably Jon, and maybe in Jon Connington's Aegon.

Yep.  It does in both Dany and Jon.  Maybe in 'Aegon'.  That Aegon could be fake; could be real.  If Tyrion is Aerys son (I personally doubt it, but it's been postulated) would he also continue the Line?

 

[Tywin Tytosson]

On 11/20/2016 at 7:01 AM, Yukle said:

Not to get all philosophical, but what's in a name?

If Jon is always called Jon, even if Lyanna named him Jahaerys or Aegon or McBumblefart, Jon is what he goes by. Ned named him Jon, even if his name was meant to be something else.

Kind of like how people change their names sometimes when they become monarchs, or pope. Their old name isn't their name any more.

Heh ... true dat.  

I honestly don't think that Jon's real name matters.  Just like being a bastard vs. not doesn't matter.

[bent branch]

Either Jon Snow or Jon Targaryen. No matter what his first name is Jon. Ain't no way he's going to answer to anything else at this point.

[Yukle]

On 25 November 2016 at 4:35 PM, Thror Baratheon said:

Maybe or maybe not.  She could have accepted them after being with Rheagar.  She could not have.  Don't know, really.  She could have honored Rhaegar by giving their son the name of Rhaegars (believed to be) dead eldest son.  I've known people to do similar -- name later children after an earlier but deceased child.

This is possible although it relies on Lyanna being very rational in her dying moments. I think it likely that she'd want her son to be her son and not Rhaegar's replacement for a child to his first wife.

If she was going to give her child a Valyrian name, perhaps Jahaerys or Daemon or something. She wouldn't take Aegon, due to that being Rhaegar's eldest son, nor Aerys, because the current king of that name was a lunatic.

Of course, she was a free spirit, so she might have given him a Northern name. Maybe Bran. Or Torrhen. Or Rickard. Or even, given the Stark history, she may have actually named him Jon, after one of the Kings in the North.

[desire]

Thomas the  Targaryen

[Damon_Tor]

It's worth noting that the name "Aegon" would be pronounced "Ee-Jon" if you were to use the Greek pronunciation.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 1/12/2016 at 11:52 PM, Damon_Tor said:

the Greek pronunciation.

The Greek pronunciation? So in the books which were written in greek language Aegon is pronounced "Eejon"?

mmm... more likely Viserys.  Isn't that the masculine form?

No. Viserra seems to be Viserys' female form.

[Tywin Tytosson]

On 12/4/2016 at 5:23 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

The Greek pronunciation? So in the books which were written in greek language Aegon is pronounced "Eejon"?

Actually, didn't I read somewhere that 'Aegon' is a Celtic name?   'Fire Lord' or 'Lord of Fire'?

If latinized ... it would sould sort of like 'Eye-gon' or 'Eye-jon' no?  (depending on how the 'j' is pronounced).

'Eye-kon' ?  'Eye-chon'?

Hmmm... if we follow the rule 'first vowel does the walking, the second the talking', then the name would be 'Ee-gon','Ee-jon','Ee-kon', or 'Ee-chon'.  

 

[Tywin Tytosson]

On 11/28/2016 at 8:29 AM, Yukle said:

This is possible although it relies on Lyanna being very rational in her dying moments. I think it likely that she'd want her son to be her son and not Rhaegar's replacement for a child to his first wife.

If she was going to give her child a Valyrian name, perhaps Jahaerys or Daemon or something. She wouldn't take Aegon, due to that being Rhaegar's eldest son, nor Aerys, because the current king of that name was a lunatic.

Of course, she was a free spirit, so she might have given him a Northern name. Maybe Bran. Or Torrhen. Or Rickard. Or even, given the Stark history, she may have actually named him Jon, after one of the Kings in the North.

This assumes that the child's name wasnt decided upon before the birth.

I start with a different set of assumptions, including that Lyanna 1) did fall in love with Rhaegar; and 2) Lyanna bought into the PTWP prophecy

And I see no reason to exclude the name Aegon.  None at all.  Referenece my comment above : 'Aegon Lyannasson' is a different name than 'Aegon' or 'Aegon Eliasson', if it comes down to it.

As far as Rhaegar's eldest son ... at Jon's birth, Rhaegar had no (known) living son.  The Mountain had already killed Rhaegar's children to Elia

 

[PCK]

Aragorn.

[Tywin Tytosson]

14 minutes ago, PCK said:

Aragorn.

Love it!  

Aragorn it is!

[Yukle]

On 15 December 2016 at 4:36 PM, Thror Baratheon said:

This assumes that the child's name wasnt decided upon before the birth.

I start with a different set of assumptions, including that Lyanna 1) did fall in love with Rhaegar; and 2) Lyanna bought into the PTWP prophecy

And I see no reason to exclude the name Aegon.  None at all.  Referenece my comment above : 'Aegon Lyannasson' is a different name than 'Aegon' or 'Aegon Eliasson', if it comes down to it.

As far as Rhaegar's eldest son ... at Jon's birth, Rhaegar had no (known) living son.  The Mountain had already killed Rhaegar's children to Elia

 

There's no indication that anyone in Westeros has given their children the same name twice. Rhaegar is unlikely to want to have 2 sons named Aegon. From memory even Aegon the Younger and Aegon the Elder who fought in the Dance with the Dragons had different parents.

[Tywin Tytosson]

2 hours ago, Yukle said:

There's no indication that anyone in Westeros has given their children the same name twice. Rhaegar is unlikely to want to have 2 sons named Aegon. From memory even Aegon the Younger and Aegon the Elder who fought in the Dance with the Dragons had different parents.

 

And there is no indication that they did not.  I'm curious -- why do you think Rhaegar would not?

Honestly, I don't understand why such things could never happen in a place like Westeros.  That piece of logic escapes me.

The possibility that they could certainly exists, no?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 15/12/2016 at 7:19 AM, Thror Baratheon said:

Actually, didn't I read somewhere that 'Aegon' is a Celtic name?   'Fire Lord' or 'Lord of Fire'?

If latinized ... it would sould sort of like 'Eye-gon' or 'Eye-jon' no?  (depending on how the 'j' is pronounced).

'Eye-kon' ?  'Eye-chon'?

Hmmm... if we follow the rule 'first vowel does the walking, the second the talking', then the name would be 'Ee-gon','Ee-jon','Ee-kon', or 'Ee-chon'.  

 

I have no idea about it. I am only asking if in Greek pronunciation Aegon is pronounced "Eejon".

[Big Daddy]

I am guessing (at the moment anyway, my mood could change) that in the books Jon's real name is Aemon, but in the show they will name him Aegon. Ameon ties into Jon's relationship with his maester, and his childhood hero the Dragon knight. While the show will simply go for the cooler sounding name and it is the most famous name.