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What is Jon Snow's real name?


ErasmusF

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Just now, Masha said:

I am talking based off the books and not in the show.

 In the books, Ned and others remember Lyanna dying in a "bed of blood", "smell of roses and blood". Furthermore, books 100% associate the expression "bed of blood" to women dying in childbirth from uncontrolled bleeding. So if Lyanna in the books died in the "bed of blood" and the books associate it only with women dying in childbirth, Lyanna died from complications in childbirth = uncontrolled bleeding. In real life and throughout history, women who died from uncontrolled bleeding in childbirth died within hours at most couple of days after actual childbirth.

There is no way, in the books (according to GRRM approved maps of Westeros), Rhaegar managed to be in TOJ during Childbirth, then travel to KL then to Trident, then Ned travel from Trident to KL then to TOJ in space of couple of days or even under 12 days which your example associates to (Jane Seymour who died of birth complications, but of postpartum fever not uncontrolled bleeding and fever takes longer for women to die, obviously). 

Thats why I am saying that for your claim to be correct, and Rhaegar to be there at birth of his child, Lyanna just couldn't die from childbirth complications

 

books - I think there is a lot of stuff that went down that we are not informed of yet. More people and maybe not all of them died there as we have been led to believe. There is still quite a mystery as to what happened there. I will be surprised if other named characters believed to be lost are hiding under other identities or hiding in general.

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On ‎1‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 0:07 PM, A Ghost of Someone said:

Not on show but books maybe, a long shot but we may have to wait years for that or may never know. 

Masha's right. In the books Rhaegar had left Lyanna months before. He left Lyanna and went to Kingslanding, gathered an army, went to the Trident, died, and then what happened after he died was Ned marched his army to KL in time to find Tywin's army sacking it, and then Ned went and broke the siege at Storm's End. Then Ned went and found Lyanna dying from childbirth. Thus, Rhaegar had left Lyanna at least 2-3 months before Jon's birth. The show is an incoherent mess, but the books are clear: Rhaegar had left Lyanna months before the birth of Jon. No need to wait and see at all!

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3 hours ago, bent branch said:

Masha's right. In the books Rhaegar had left Lyanna months before. He left Lyanna and went to Kingslanding, gathered an army, went to the Trident, died, and then what happened after he died was Ned marched his army to KL in time to find Tywin's army sacking it, and then Ned went and broke the siege at Storm's End. Then Ned went and found Lyanna dying from childbirth. Thus, Rhaegar had left Lyanna at least 2-3 months before Jon's birth. The show is an incoherent mess, but the books are clear: Rhaegar had left Lyanna months before the birth of Jon. No need to wait and see at all!

The show is a major f up for sure. If Rheagar was gone from Lyanna that long, then it, atleast to me, makes it still a possibility that Jon is a Bastard yet. I will be interested in the polygamy if GRRM has Rheagar marrying Lyanna as Rheagar was still very much married to Ellia of Dorne.

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  • 6 months later...
  • 5 weeks later...

There is no Nights King in the book, that character is purely from the TV show.

The leadership of the Whitewalkers is not discussed in the book, in fact almost nothing is mentioned about them at all outside of a few incidental encounters that appear to be driving other plot lines.

The antagonist plot role of the Night King from the TV series will be played out by Mance Raydar in the books. Not as a whitewalker of course, but as the antagonist from beyond the wall. IMO Mance Rayder (= Prince Raegar - say them quick and see how similar they sound) in the book and the Night King in the TV series are both Prince Raegar with a new identity trying to take control of Westeros to fulfill his destiny. The plot line will be a fight between him and his children, who have different visions of what the kingdom should be.

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Jon is a Stark name, there is Jonnel Stark who married his cousin Sansa and Jon Stark who built Wolf's Den, a key place to the story imo, plus there are Jon Arryn and Jon Connington which could be namesakes for a baby in both R+L = (or ≠) J situations. I don't want him to have a new name to be honest 

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On 8/26/2015 at 4:49 PM, ErasmusF said:

(R+L=J Spoilers below, I suppose)

 

 

 

So it occurs to me that if R+L=J is true, then Jon Snow isn't a real name. Posting this under WoW because I am 95% sure we will get the reveal in WoW whether Jon (if that's his real name!) is dead or alive. 

 

Of course, the "Snow" part is wrong, since he was most likely born in Dorne anyway. 

 

I am also thinking "Jon" isn't real. Jon isn't a typical Stark or Targaryan name. It's almost a tip of the hat by GRRM that Ned didn't pick a typical Stark name... Torrhen, Cregan, Beron, Ed, or Artos being traditional Stark names not taken or later assigned to another child. If he were truly Ned's son, he would not have picked a generic name - Jon Snow = John Doe.

 

More than likely, Rhaegar and Lyanna picked a Targaryan name. Options not already assigned to his other kids or siblings... Aenar, Aemon, Maegor, Baelor, Jaehaerys, Daeron, Maekar. Aenys, Aerys. Cooler if he names him after a dragon, like Balerion or Vhagar. Unlikley that he picked a name of one of the great bastards, Aegor or Daemon. Those are all in order of likelihood, in my eyes.     

 

Maybe not, and Rhaegar picked a traditional Stark name, in which case my money is on Torrhen who had the wisdom to bend the knee rather than see the North burn. This seems to be the case with Brynden Rivers, but that might have had more to do with his father's growing disinterest in naming his bastards. I think this only happens if the marriage was on the Isle of Faces and Jon is a legitimate Targ. Torrhen Targaryan has an alliterative ring to it.

 

So last name possibilities, in order of likelihood, IMO: Targaryan, Sand (born), Rivers (conceived), Snow (mom).

 

My best guess at Jon Snow's true name is:

Aenar Targaryan - named for the founder of the house, since he is TPTWP (I think Rhaegar realized his error in naming Aegon that) and he is hoped to refound House Targaryan.

Torrhen Targaryan - Ice and Fire

Aemon Targaryan - I just find it funny that two people with the same name would talk and not even know it. 

 

 

Name your top 3.  

Jon's real name is...

Wait for it..

Suspense!...

Jon.

/end thread

 

Seriously, this is one of the dumbest questions people in ASOAIF fandoms have seriously been asking and wondering about. He was named Jon, by Ned Stark, after Jon Arryn.

That's it. There is no other name he ever got.

Whatever Rhaegar may have wanted to name him is irrelevant - he never got to name him, because he died before Jon was born. It doesn't matter what anyone planned to name you before you were born - you only get your name AFTER your birth.

Lyanna most certainly would not have been a total idiot to give him a Targaryen name. "Promise me, Ned, that you will protect him. And make sure he has a huge target on his back from the start." Yeah, right. And if she had named him Brandon or Rickard, I'm sure Ned would have kept that name. I'm fairly certain her son's name was the last thing Lyanna had the time or energy to think about. She was much more concerned with him staying alive, and asking her brother to protect him.

As for his last name, the argument is completely wrong. No one ever thought he was born in the North anyway. Bastards don't necessarily get their name based on where they were born. Brynden Rivers was born in King's Landing, but he was still called Rivers.

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Isn't there a line somewhere where Jon thinks to himself that he is not Aemon Targaryen (forgot which book, sorry). Perhaps that's foreshadowing... Having said that, I'm not really certain about the Targaryen bit since that would necessitate him being legitimate which is debatable.

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4 hours ago, Pearly said:

Isn't there a line somewhere where Jon thinks to himself that he is not Aemon Targaryen (forgot which book, sorry). Perhaps that's foreshadowing... Having said that, I'm not really certain about the Targaryen bit since that would necessitate him being legitimate which is debatable.

 

It is foreshadowing... that he's not named Aemon Targaryen. :) If you want some foreshadowing about Jon's real name then reread ADwD, Jon II. Specifically, the paragraph where Maester Aemon tells Jon to "Kill the boy... ."

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Rhaegar was never a king and died before his father.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen's men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. "There is power in a king's blood," the old maester had warned, "and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this." The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.

A Clash of Kings - Jon I

It made him feel odd. "My lord, why have you told me this, about Maester Aemon?"

"Must I have a reason?" Mormont shifted in his seat, frowning. "Your brother Robb has been crowned King in the North. You and Aemon have that in common. A king for a brother."

"And this too," said Jon. "A vow."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

"My lord, my f-f-f-father, Lord Randyll, he, he, he, he, he … the life of a maester is a life of servitude. No son of House Tarly will ever wear a chain. The men of Horn Hill do not bow and scrape to petty lords. Jon, I cannot disobey my father."

Kill the boy, Jon thought. The boy in you, and the one in him. Kill the both of them, you bloody bastard.

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

"Jon," Bran gasped out from Hodor's arms.

The dwarf turned to look at him. "So it is true, the boy lives. I could scarce believe it. You Starks are hard to kill."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

"I won't say you're wrong. What do you mean to do, crow?"

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey.

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

Jon remained standing. "It's my father, isn't it?"

The Old Bear tapped the letter with a finger. "Your father and the king," he rumbled. "I won't lie to you, it's grievous news. I never thought to see another king, not at my age, with Robert half my years and strong as a bull." He took a gulp of wine. "They say the king loved to hunt. The things we love destroy us every time, lad. Remember that. My son loved that young wife of his. Vain woman. If not for her, he would never have thought to sell those poachers."

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VI

Lysa seated herself near the fire and said, "Come to Mother, my sweet one." She straightened his bedclothes and fussed with his fine brown hair. "Isn't he beautiful? And strong too, don't you believe the things you hear. Jon knew. The seed is strong, he told me. His last words. He kept saying Robert's name, and he grabbed my arm so hard he left marks. Tell them, the seed is strong. His seed. He wanted everyone to know what a good strong boy my baby was going to be."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

Sam fled from him just as Gilly had.

Jon was tired. I need sleep. He had been up half the night poring over maps, writing letters, and making plans with Maester Aemon. Even after stumbling into his narrow bed, rest had not come easily. He knew what he would face today, and found himself tossing restlessly as he brooded on Maester Aemon's final words. "Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel," the old man had said, "the same counsel that I once gave my brother when we parted for the last time. He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne. A man grown with sons of his own, yet in some ways still a boy. Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took ship for the Wall. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born." The old man felt Jon's face. "You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born."

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn III

"Why would anyone want to kill Bran?" Robb said. "Gods, he's only a little boy, helpless, sleeping …"

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

Jon had expected that. The direwolf made Queen Selyse anxious, almost as much as Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun. "Ghost, stay."

They found Her Grace sewing by the fire, whilst her fool danced about to music only he could hear, the cowbells on his antlers clanging. "The crow, the crow," Patchface cried when he saw Jon. "Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh." Princess Shireen was curled up in a window seat, her hood drawn up to hide the worst of the greyscale that had disfigured her face.

 

Rather than cherry picking, we should be finding for the gold... the kernels of truth.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Rhaegar was never a king and died before his father.

Rather than cherry picking, we should be finding for the gold... the kernels of truth.

I guess I don't understand your point. Rhaegar was never a king & died before his father - yes? 

I see some foreshadowing that Jon's real name is Aegon but am not sure what Rhaegar dying before his father have to do with that or what some of the quoted passages have to do with either...

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On 9/6/2017 at 0:25 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I guess I don't understand your point. Rhaegar was never a king & died before his father - yes? 

I see some foreshadowing that Jon's real name is Aegon but am not sure what Rhaegar dying before his father have to do with that or what some of the quoted passages have to do with either...

Jon can't be the pwip since it takes the death of two kings to wake the dragon. First, the father and then the son.  At least, if this is Rhaegar's interpretation of the prophecy.  Aemon seems to think they got it wrong and he recognizes correctly that Dany is the pwip who will wake dragons from stone.    Rhaegar dies before Aerys. 

So when Rhaegar tells Elia that Aegon is the pwip in the HoU and then turns to Dany and says the dragon has three heads, there must be one more... what does he mean.  Does he mean that there is more than one pwip?

- Dany fits because she wakes dragons from stone

- Jon might fit because he is the prince for whom promises are made (promise me, Ned)

- Bran might also fit because he is the prince of the greenwood for who the cotf have been waiting

- Aegon might also fit if Rhaegar thinks he will heal the land and rule as Rhaegar intended

So is this really about who will ride a dragon?  When Dany enters the HoU, she is addressed as mother of dragons... child of three.  Does this mean Dany is one of three children or is she being addressed as mother of dragons; while Drogon who is with her, is addressed as child of three?

Are we to assume that Rhaegar needs to produce a spare also called Aegon as pwip.  Why then even call his first born pwip if he knows he will not survive

 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Hell no.

Okay. Wasn't sure since we were both referencing the "Kill the boy..." quote. 

53 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Are we to assume that Rhaegar needs to produce a spare also called Aegon as pwip.  Why then even call his first born pwip if he knows he will not survive

2

The key idea here is that Rhaegar didn't name Lyanna's child, she did. And she did so after Rhaegar and his family were dead. 

I think Rhaegar died believing his son with Elia was the PtwP, and that Lyanna was going to give birth to a girl who would be his third child and the third head of the dragon. Thus Rhaegar never picked out a boy's name for his child with Lyanna.

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54 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Okay. Wasn't sure since we were both referencing the "Kill the boy..." quote. 

The key idea here is that Rhaegar didn't name Lyanna's child, she did. And she did so after Rhaegar and his family were dead. 

I think Rhaegar died believing his son with Elia was the PtwP, and that Lyanna was going to give birth to a girl who would be his third child and the third head of the dragon. Thus Rhaegar never picked out a boy's name for his child with Lyanna.

You know that I don't buy the Rhaegar plot line.  As I recall the primary argument for excluding Robert were Jon Arryn's last words: the seed is strong.  Which have always been understood as Robert producing many blue-eyed bastards.  I don't think it means that all anymore.  I think Martin has been far more subtle and nuanced than anyone realized.  The seed is strong refers to the Stark bloodline.

I'm fine if people want to stick with Rhaegar but I don't think we can exclude Robert based on that argument.

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10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

You know that I don't buy the Rhaegar plot line.  As I recall the primary argument for excluding Robert were Jon Arryn's last words: the seed is strong.  Which have always been understood as Robert producing many blue-eyed bastards.  I don't think it means that all anymore.  I think Martin has been far more subtle and nuanced than anyone realized.  The seed is strong refers to the Stark bloodline.

I'm fine if people want to stick with Rhaegar but I don't think we can exclude Robert based on that argument.

You're entitled to your opinions about Jon's parentage, but there's no point in assuming anything other than R+L=J in topics about Jon's real name because we can do no better than guess his true name if he's Robert or Arthur's bastard. Actually, that Jon even has a real name is another hint that favors RLJ over other options. It's only really necessary for Ned to create an alias if his real name gives away his true identity. Something that absolutely would be the case with a Targaryen name, but almost surely wouldn't with a much more common First Men or Andal name. 

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