What is Jon Snow's real name?

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

You're entitled to your opinions about Jon's parentage, but there's no point in assuming anything other than R+L=J in topics about Jon's real name because we can do no better than guess his true name if he's Robert or Arthur's bastard. Actually, that Jon even has a real name is another hint that favors RLJ over other options. It's only really necessary for Ned to create an alias if his real name gives away his true identity. Something that absolutely would be the case with a Targaryen name, but almost surely wouldn't with a much more common First Men or Andal name. 

Well if the whole point of the thread is just to pick any name so long as it's Aegon - then I vote for Jon Snow-Storm. The butler did it, JStarg.  They guy who occupies so much of the background in GoT but is given no more thought than the furniture.

[J. Stargaryen]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Well if the whole point of the thread is just to pick any name so long as it's Aegon - then I vote for Jon Snow-Storm. The butler did it, JStarg.  They guy who occupies so much of the background in GoT but is given no more thought than the furniture.

Aemon would also be acceptable.

But getting back to the point I made in my previous post, What are the Baratheon or Dayne names which give away Jon's identity? The names which absolutely require Ned to create the "Jon Snow" alias. There aren't any. Because there aren't any distinctive Baratheon or Dayne names that we know of. Targaryens, on the other hand, are a collection of distinctive names. So, at the risk of repeating myself, Jon having a real name is a pretty strong clue that he's a Targaryen.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

15 hours ago, LynnS said:

Jon can't be the pwip since it takes the death of two kings to wake the dragon. First, the father and then the son.  At least, if this is Rhaegar's interpretation of the prophecy.  Aemon seems to think they got it wrong and he recognizes correctly that Dany is the pwip who will wake dragons from stone.    Rhaegar dies before Aerys. 

So when Rhaegar tells Elia that Aegon is the pwip in the HoU and then turns to Dany and says the dragon has three heads, there must be one more... what does he mean.  Does he mean that there is more than one pwip?

- Dany fits because she wakes dragons from stone

- Jon might fit because he is the prince for whom promises are made (promise me, Ned)

- Bran might also fit because he is the prince of the greenwood for who the cotf have been waiting

- Aegon might also fit if Rhaegar thinks he will heal the land and rule as Rhaegar intended

So is this really about who will ride a dragon?  When Dany enters the HoU, she is addressed as mother of dragons... child of three.  Does this mean Dany is one of three children or is she being addressed as mother of dragons; while Drogon who is with her, is addressed as child of three?

Are we to assume that Rhaegar needs to produce a spare also called Aegon as pwip.  Why then even call his first born pwip if he knows he will not survive

 

I gotcha. So Dany's king duo to wake the dragon was Drogo & Rhaego, correct? 

That makes me wonder if this is how Rhaegar understood the prophecy who did he plan on making his King duo? Aerys & himself? 

I can't think of one good reason for Jon to be named Aegon. I've not read anything that implies to me that the ptwp has to be named anything in particular & whether Lyanna or Rhaegar named Jon (I know Lyanna named him but I assume Rhaegar & her discussed it before the child was born) they both knew his first son was named Aegon. It's just odd to me. 

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that there are several princes that were promised. 

[Human Metal]

15 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Actually, that Jon even has a real name is another hint that favors RLJ over other options.

I've seen a number of clues in these books that suggest he does have a real name. 

Almost all of them point to the name: "Jon."

 

[JNR]

6 minutes ago, Human Metal said:

I've seen a number of clues in these books that suggest he does have a real name. 

Almost all of them point to the name: "Jon."

Yeah, I was thinking I must have missed something.  

Where did this whole topic come from?  Did GRRM recently do an interview in which he stated "Jon" isn't Jon's real name, but only an alias created by Ned to conceal Jon's real name, which was previously given him by someone else?  

[The Fattest Leech]

27 minutes ago, Human Metal said:

I've seen a number of clues in these books that suggest he does have a real name. 

Almost all of them point to the name: "Jon."

 

But you see, you have to read backwards to get the clues. Try holding your books up in a mirror. 

17 minutes ago, JNR said:

Yeah, I was thinking I must have missed something.  

Where did this whole topic come from?  Did GRRM recently do an interview in which he stated "Jon" isn't Jon's real name, but only an alias created by Ned to conceal Jon's real name, which was previously given him by someone else?  

I have been wondering the same daggon' thing for a while now. 

[J. Stargaryen]

Oh boy... A character with a mysterious secret identity whose name sounds like the in-universe equivalent of John Doe. GRRM said Ned named him Jon. Okay, what did Lyanna name him?

[Shmedricko]

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Oh boy... A character with a mysterious secret identity whose name sounds like the in-universe equivalent of John Doe. GRRM said Ned named him Jon. Okay, what did Lyanna name him?

And in case anyone wants some quotes:

Quote

5. Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

-So Spake Martin

Quote

"I'm Jon Snow, Ned Stark's bastard, of Winterfell."

Samwell Tarly nodded. "I … if you want, you can call me Sam. My mother calls me Sam."

"You can call him Lord Snow," Pyp said as he came up to join them. "You don't want to know what his mother calls him." (Jon IV, AGOT)

Quote

Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him. (Jon IX, AGOT)

Quote

"Well, you're nothing but a bastard boy!" Or maybe he was only pretending to be a bastard boy. "What's your true name?" (Arya II, ACOK)

Quote

"Your dreams don't lie," said Dunk, "but you do. John is not your true name, is it?"

"No." The Fiddler's eyes sparkled with mischief.

He has Egg's eyes.

"His true name will be revealed soon enough, to those who need to know." Lord Gormon Peake had slipped into the pavilion, scowling. "Hedge knight, I warn you—" (The Mystery Knight)

[J. Stargaryen]

23 minutes ago, Shmedricko said:

And in case anyone wants some quotes:

Thank you. Those are some good ones. Especially from Jon IX.

24 minutes ago, Shmedricko said:

"You don't want to know what his mother calls him."

This is the quote that inspired me to consider Aegon as a possibility back in 2014.

[LynnS]

17 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Aemon would also be acceptable.

But getting back to the point I made in my previous post, What are the Baratheon or Dayne names which give away Jon's identity? The names which absolutely require Ned to create the "Jon Snow" alias. There aren't any. Because there aren't any distinctive Baratheon or Dayne names that we know of. Targaryens, on the other hand, are a collection of distinctive names. So, at the risk of repeating myself, Jon having a real name is a pretty strong clue that he's a Targaryen.

I'm not considering the Dayne's, but Robert would certainly give it away.  As pointed out above thread, Ned named him Jon and it is what it is.  Lyanna is dead so there are no clues here.  It's a wind-up, something that pip is doing.   There is a lack of context:

1 hour ago, Shmedricko said:

Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him. (Jon IX, AGOT)

He is running from the NW and considers the consequence of oath oathbreaking, that he would have to conceal his name.  Although that passage interests me for an entirely different reason having to do with stories of the Night's King, who's name can never be spoken.

Arya on the other hand has already fingered Jon as the bastard in question.
 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Arya III

"You realize I had half my guard out searching for you?" Eddard Stark said when they were alone. "Septa Mordane is beside herself with fear. She's in the sept praying for your safe return. Arya, you know you are never to go beyond the castle gates without my leave."

"I didn't go out the gates," she blurted. "Well, I didn't mean to. I was down in the dungeons, only they turned into this tunnel. It was all dark, and I didn't have a torch or a candle to see by, so I had to follow. I couldn't go back the way I came on account of the monsters. Father, they were talking about killing you! Not the monsters, the two men. They didn't see me, I was being still as stone and quiet as a shadow, but I heard them. They said you had a book and a bastard and if one Hand could die, why not a second? Is that the book? Jon's the bastard, I bet."

 

As far as the Hedge Night is concerned, I expect that Jon's father will be revealed at some point and very likely through his dreams.  So we'll have to wait and see.   

[J. Stargaryen]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not considering the Dayne's, but Robert would certainly give it away. 

As pointed out above thread, Ned named him Jon and it is what it is.  Lyanna is dead so there are no clues here.  It's a wind-up, something that pip is doing.   There is a lack of context:

He is running from the NW and considers the consequence of oath oathbreaking, that he would have to conceal his name.  Although that passage interests me for an entirely different reason having to do with stories of the Night's King, who's name can never be spoken.

Arya on the other hand has already fingered Jon as the bastard in question.
 

As far as the Hedge Night is concerned, I expect that Jon's father will be revealed at some point and very likely through his dreams.  So we'll have to wait and see.   

3

I'm having trouble breaking up the quote into different sections, so I've modified your post a bit so you could understand what I was responding to.

You sure about that Lynn? Ned naming one of his children after his BFF seemed so fitting that Cat went ahead and did it for him with their first born son, Robb. So yeah, the baby being named Robert would certainly not have given it away. And as I've pointed out elsewhere, we don't really get "juniors" in the series, with only a couple of exceptions. The funny thing about the RB+L=J theory is that Robert would have known he had sex with her, that Ned came back from the south with Lyanna and a baby, and was never the least bit suspicious about that baby. 

GRRM is answering who gave Jon Snow that name. GRRM did, however, point out that dying mothers could name their children.

As far as your dismissals, come on. Pointing out the literal reading of a passage does not prove that it lacks subtext. All due respect, but that's a poor argument because anyone can make it about any clue that is based on subtext, metaphor, etc.

[LynnS]

38 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I'm having trouble breaking up the quote into different sections, so I've modified your post a bit so you could understand what I was responding to.

You sure about that Lynn? Ned naming one of his children after his BFF seemed so fitting that Cat went ahead and did it for him with their first born son, Robb. So yeah, the baby being named Robert would certainly not have given it away. And as I've pointed out elsewhere, we don't really get "juniors" in the series, with only a couple of exceptions. The funny thing about the RB+L=J theory is that Robert would have known he had sex with her, that Ned came back from the south with Lyanna and a baby, and was never the least bit suspicious about that baby. 

GRRM is answering who gave Jon Snow that name. GRRM did, however, point out that dying mothers could name their children.

As far as your dismissals, come on. Pointing out the literal reading of a passage does not prove that it lacks subtext. All due respect, but that's a poor argument because anyone can make it about any clue that is based on subtext, metaphor, etc.

The point is that we don't know what or even if Lyanna said anything at all to Ned about naming Jon herself.   Martin says that Ned named Jon.  Of course Jon's father is the mystery and Lyanna, Ned and possibly Howland or even Benjen know his identity.  There is absolutely no way to prove or disprove anything based on those quotes.   Which makes it very easy to ignore the context and jump to a conclusion.

The funny thing about RB+L+J is that Robert would have had far more opportunity than Rhaegar to father a child on Lyanna. He was certainly highly motivated.  That would change a lot of assumptions about the perceived timeline and where Lyanna was hidden and why.  So hooray!  Everything hasn't already been discovered and cast in stone.  At this point, we should have the grace to open up the discussion instead of doing everything possible to suppress it. 

[JNR]

8 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

This appears to equate Ned with Rhaella and Tywin as the entity responsible for giving a child a name, and hence, implies Jon is Jon's name, as given by Ned.

Unless you're suggesting Dany and Tyrion have secret names, given by someone other than the above parties?

8 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

"You can call him Lord Snow," Pyp said as he came up to join them. "You don't want to know what his mother calls him."

This quote would require Pyp to have an extraordinary familiarity with Jon's mother to be anything but a joke.  

Can we demonstrate Pyp has an extraordinary familiarity with Jon's mother?

8 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name.

This quote implies Jon, in AGOT, has a true name that Jon already knows and dares not speak.  

Yet Jon never appears to think anything along these lines -- "My secret true name is..."  except in the sense that he has an ambivalent reaction to the concept of himself as a Stark, which is particularly manifested in Jon's dreams. 

8 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

"Your dreams don't lie," said Dunk, "but you do. John is not your true name, is it?"

This quote applies to a character who isn't Jon and never met Jon, and was spoken by another character who isn't Jon and never met Jon.  Both died long before Jon was born.

So it doesn't appear to be the case that we can, solely by using the canon, show that "Jon" is an alias and that he has a different true name unless we take liberties of interpretation in accordance with confirmation bias.  

But perhaps GRRM did an interview recently in which he revealed this truth about Jon having a secret true name?  This would be a quote contradicting his quote above, in which GRRM states clearly that Ned named Jon just as Rhaella named Dany and Tywin named Tyrion. 

I'm hoping someone can provide a link.

[J. Stargaryen]

21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The point is that we don't know what or even if Lyanna said anything at all to Ned about naming Jon herself.   Martin says that Ned named Jon.  Of course Jon's father is the mystery and Lyanna, Ned and possibly Howland or even Benjen know his identity.  There is absolutely no way to prove or disprove anything based on those quotes.   Which makes it very easy to ignore the context and jump to a conclusion.

1

Sure, we don't know if Lyanna gave Jon a different name. But by that standard, we don't really know much of anything. Let's not suppress discussion, am I right?

21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The funny thing about RB+L+J is that Robert would have had far more opportunity than Rhaegar to father a child on Lyanna. He was certainly highly motivated.  That would change a lot of assumptions about the perceived timeline and where Lyanna was hidden and why.  So hooray!  Everything hasn't already been discovered and cast in stone.  At this point, we should have the grace to open up the discussion instead of doing everything possible to suppress it. 

 

How does this make sense? RB+L=J would see Robert and Lyanna sneaking off for hours or minutes at a time, whereas RLJ would have Rhaegar and Lyanna spending months together without the supervision of her brothers or father.

I'm not trying to suppress discussion, Lynn. But this thread isn't a thread about who Jon's parents are, it's about what his real name is. From my point of view, it seems like the people stifling discussion are the ones insisting Jon's only name is the one Ned gave him. Especially since the OP is making the assumption that that isn't the case.

[The Fattest Leech]

 

9 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

"Your dreams don't lie," said Dunk, "but you do. John is not your true name, is it?"

"No." The Fiddler's eyes sparkled with mischief.

He has Egg's eyes.

"His true name will be revealed soon enough, to those who need to know." Lord Gormon Peake had slipped into the pavilion, scowling. "Hedge knight, I warn you—" (The Mystery Knight)

Ok, I can see the point of curiosity in this quote, but wouldn't that point more towards Rhaegar about to reenact a "Blackfyre" rebellion in his way with Rhaegar as Daemon Sr, and that Jon Snow would be the Daemon Jr in this case. This would lead to Jon being named Daemon rather than Aegon or Aemon. And if we also happen to still have Bloodraven mulching around the story, as we had him alive in TMK, and the chance that Jon will have a mind link interaction with Bran when Jon is in his icy coma where IF Jon has a real name it would be revealed at that time, then in your guesstimation, does Bloodraven play any part against Jon in the current story? I am honestly curious in asking. 

ADDING: spoiler covered just in case someone has not read The Mystery Knight just yet

Spoiler

This would also reenact TMK plot of a "dragon's egg" hatching (Targaryen person) at Whitewalls (the Wall), which is pulled down by Bloodraven and the land salted.

 

[J. Stargaryen]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ok, I can see the point of curiosity in this quote, but wouldn't that point more towards Rhaegar about to reenact a "Blackfyre" rebellion in his way with Rhaegar as Daemon Sr, and that Jon Snow would be the Daemon Jr in this case. This would lead to Jon being named Daemon rather than Aegon or Aemon. And if we also happen to still have Bloodraven mulching around the story, as we had him alive in TMK, and the chance that Jon will have a mind link interaction with Bran when Jon is in his icy coma where IF Jon has a real name it would be revealed at that time, then in your guesstimation, does Bloodraven play any part against Jon in the current story? I am honestly curious in asking. 

 

I don't think it's necessary to extrapolate to that degree. Secret Targaryen. Bastard element. "Jo(h)n."

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I don't think it's necessary to extrapolate to that degree. Secret Targaryen. Bastard element. "Jo(h)n."

I agree to a degree I guess I am still not getting how Aemon or Aegon is the preferred name as opposed to a more direct link to this setting up a cause for the DoD pt4 in the upcoming books with Daenerys as Daeron and pointing her "sword" towards Dorne, and we know that Dorne is equivalent to the North, and the North is Jon. I dunno, just discussion.

[Liver and Onions]

I would like the see the twist that his real name IS Jon, and Lyanna asked Ned to name him that, because she and Rhaegar discussed it before he left- if it's a girl, Visenya; if it's a boy.... uh.... name it after Jon Connington! (Sorry , Arthur!)

I like this idea solely because if Aegon VII is a fake, Jon Connington might get some respite from knowing Rhaegar wanted to name his kid after him (and because the coincidence of Jon Arryn as a namesake for Jon Snow but also Jon Connington being one for R+L=J. ) There's no real proof other than the coincidence, but still, it's a nice thought. It's highly probable even if Rhaegar and Lyanna had a name in mind for a son, Ned chose Jon because in made sense and wasn't a Targaryen name. So Jon Snow has always been Jon. 

[J. Stargaryen]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I agree to a degree I guess I am still not getting how Aemon or Aegon is the preferred name as opposed to a more direct link to this setting up a cause for the DoD pt3 in the upcoming books with Daenerys as Daeron and pointing her "sword" towards Dorne, and we know that Dorne is equivalent to the North, and the North is Jon. I dunno, just discussion.

 

Are we only considering that one quote? Even if that is the case, I would point out that the original Dance had two Aegons. Further, it was contested between an even-numbered Aegon and a female claimant. One of the most popular fan theories is that YG will be crowned as Aegon VI. So the promised DotD sequel actually lines up well with the idea that Jon's true name is Aegon. And it might even suggest that his eventual destiny is to be crowned Aegon VII. I know Jon being crowned the eventual king isn't the most popular idea, but if GRRM gives us a sixth Aegon, well... "Six have been found. We are all waiting on the seventh."

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Sure, we don't know if Lyanna gave Jon a different name. But by that standard, we don't really know much of anything. Let's not suppress discussion, am I right?

How does this make sense? RB+L=J would see Robert and Lyanna sneaking off for hours or minutes at a time, whereas RLJ would have Rhaegar and Lyanna spending months together without the supervision of her brothers or father.

I'm not trying to suppress discussion, Lynn. But this thread isn't a thread about who Jon's parents are, it's about what his real name is. From my point of view, it seems like the people stifling discussion are the ones insisting Jon's only name is the one Ned gave him. Especially since the OP is making the assumption that that isn't the case.

Suppressing discussion comes in the form of ridicule and bully behavior rather than debate.  That happens more often than not when the orthodoxy is questioned.  It's the reason why anyone who wants to discuss other ideas; always attach a caveat that RLJ is most likely.  But they have their doubts and they don't want to be subjected to the bully behavior of adolescent minds.  I don't accuse you of this but we have all seen it.  It seems that anyone who dares to discuss anything but RLJ is chased off the forum.  That would explain why there is so little discussion about it here.  But you can find it elsewhere.

What is obvious is that the showrunners have taken Aegon's arc from the book and applied it to Jon Snow.  They are two different things and although I think it likely that Aegon and Dany's plot lines will converge; I doubt we can apply it to Jon in the book.

I've given an explanation of Jon Arryn's words and this should open up discussion that doesn't exclude Robert as Jon's father.  That is, if anyone is brave enough.  LOL