MaesterSam Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Or simpler still the Long Night was a side effect of magically raising such a huge barrier. The walkers and the wights destroyed the human kingdoms north of what's now the Wall and perhaps beyond it as far as the Neck. The Last Hero seeks out the children to cry pax. They agree to call off the dogs because the Wall is built and then show it to him - that's it; that's as far as the realms of men may go and no further, otherwise the wild hunt will be unleashed again. Sure, that could work. Although I'm not sure why the Wall would need to be so tall if it's just a border demarcation, and/or to defend against standard humans- or why it would be needed at all, if the other side (CotF, Others) could wipe out all of humanity at any time. I was thinking more that there was a different threat- not just the First Men, but something else, probably involving fire in some way (the Bloodstone Emperor, perhaps???) - and that, to defend against it, the population had to be slaughtered as it was the only way to secure enough power to build the Wall. Some humans (Starks?) may even have been complicit in the slaughter, as they realized there was no other way for anything to survive. An unrelated crackpot also occurred to me the other day. So, in the legends, the giants were intelligent, clothed and built castles. But in modern times, they are just one step above animals - a bit like Hodor (though they can speak more than one word). Hodor is a perfect vessel for Bran (never mind the ethical implications, which are of course considerable) - mentally weak, thus unable to resist being warged, yet physically very powerful. What if... the giants of old were used by the CotF the way Bran is using Hodor? This could explain the major change we see in giants of old and today's giants- the ones today are free, and not controlled by Children... they are empty vessels. What changed? Well, if I had to guess, I'd say the Horn of Joramun was lost. Euron's Hellhorn supposedly allows the owner to control dragons, so perhaps Joramun's horn is used to control giants. (In which case, it could have even been humans who controlled them back in the day). Waking giants from the earth could refer to the sleeping greenseers, and restoring their ability to use the existing giants for useful tasks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 29, 2015 Author Share Posted August 29, 2015 Sure, that could work. Although I'm not sure why the Wall would need to be so tall if it's just a border demarcation, and/or to defend against standard humans- or why it would be needed at all, if the other side (CotF, Others) could wipe out all of humanity at any time... Ah well there you see we come back, with proper caution, to Mel and her realisation that the Wall is a place of magic and one of the great hinges of the world. It defies the logic of conventional fortifications precisely because it isn't Hadrian's Wall, or the Berlin Wall for that matter. It isn't a barrier against human sized foes [or even giants] and so isn't designed or calculated to prevent men, wights or white walkers passing between the realms, which is why its far bigger than necessary and far too big to maintain let along defend by conventional means. It is a magical structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 An unrelated crackpot also occurred to me the other day. So, in the legends, the giants were intelligent, clothed and built castles. But in modern times, they are just one step above animals - a bit like Hodor (though they can speak more than one word). Hodor is a perfect vessel for Bran (never mind the ethical implications, which are of course considerable) - mentally weak, thus unable to resist being warged, yet physically very powerful. What if... the giants of old were used by the CotF the way Bran is using Hodor? This could explain the major change we see in giants of old and today's giants- the ones today are free, and not controlled by Children... they are empty vessels. What changed? Well, if I had to guess, I'd say the Horn of Joramun was lost. Euron's Hellhorn supposedly allows the owner to control dragons, so perhaps Joramun's horn is used to control giants. (In which case, it could have even been humans who controlled them back in the day). Waking giants from the earth could refer to the sleeping greenseers, and restoring their ability to use the existing giants for useful tasks. Oooh! I like this! Leaf gives that speech about the old races. Includes the giants. So, how much are they included? One of the weakness listed for the Children is size--using the old races as a "collective"--with or without the giants' permission. That would help alleviate size issues. She also includes the direwolves--and Bran has been plugged into a tree. The idea that there are certain races the children is willing to co-opt, and that this has been foreshadowed with both Hodor and V6--that could work. Could also explain the "Last of the Giants" song. Yes, this has possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Its possible of course, but I still think it was and still is easy enough to by-pass the Wall and that those living up there have chosen to do so. I don't think its a matter of blood being demanded so much as the price of legal entry being the kneeling and swearing of allegiance to kings and nobles. Up above the Wall they live free. Small bands of warriors can filter through the Wall. Whole clans can't cross without leaving the young and weak behind. I imagine that at the time that the Wall was being raised and strengthened the cost of kneeling was very high and payed in blood. As time passed the number of sacrifices probably reduced (together with other nobility abuses) and so the cost of kneeling was reduced too, but by then the hate for kneelers was deeply ingrained into the wildlings culture. The term "blood price" is only used by Tormund, Jon and Dany. Jon and Tormund to refer to the new captives. Dany uses it to refer to the death of Hazzea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Ah well there you see we come back, with proper caution, to Mel and her realisation that the Wall is a place of magic and one of the great hinges of the world. It defies the logic of conventional fortifications precisely because it isn't Hadrian's Wall, or the Berlin Wall for that matter. It isn't a barrier against human sized foes [or even giants] and so isn't designed or calculated to prevent men, wights or white walkers passing between the realms, which is why its far bigger than necessary and far too big to maintain let along defend by conventional means. It is a magical structure. I like the idea that the size of the Wall was not determined by design, but by the amount of magic (and blood) accumulated. It parallels the weirwoods growing as long as they are fed; for example the giant weirwood in Whitetree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 29, 2015 Author Share Posted August 29, 2015 I like the idea that the size of the Wall was not determined by design, but by the amount of magic (and blood) accumulated. It parallels the weirwoods growing as long as they are fed; for example the giant weirwood in Whitetree. The weirwood parallel is one that hadn't occurred to me before but its certainly consistent with the Wall being a magic construct and I rather like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I like the idea that the size of the Wall was not determined by design, but by the amount of magic (and blood) accumulated. It parallels the weirwoods growing as long as they are fed; for example the giant weirwood in Whitetree. This is an interesting point/comparison. The weirwood parallel is one that hadn't occurred to me before but its certainly consistent with the Wall being a magic construct and I rather like it. Might we actually extrapolate this idea to all magical constructs? Dragons are said to be the same, growing as long as space and food allow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Might we actually extrapolate this idea to all magical constructs? Dragons are said to be the same, growing as long as space and food allow it. We also have the glowing ghost grass of the shadowlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMiddleHero Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Not sure how that would work. Valar dohaeris is a Valyrian phrase, and Valyria is dated back only as far as 5,000 to 6,000 years. The free folk, presumably, date back to a mere hundred or so years after the end of the Long Night... so, approximately 8,000 years ago - and half a world away. It's a different cultural heritage - so even if the spirit of freedom beyond-the-Wall is somewhat opposite to that of service embodied by the House of Black and White... it's hard to draw a direct connection between the two communities. That said, across the different storylines Martin consistently explores similar themes of power, freedom versus enslavement, the role and duty of kings, etc. So he certainly invites these kinds of explorations, generally. :) Was thinking of more the concept of them being opposed to "all men must serve" rather than directly hearing the phrase from far Valyria. I believe Osha mentions them a few times, but as my reread continues and I am getting towards the later parts of ASoS I never hear the Free Folk north of the Wall themselves making much mention of gods. In a way, they almost make gods of their heroes, but yet that doesn't stop them from disagreeing and arguing with them as well. So, as well as not bowing to lords and kings, are they not bowing to the gods as well? Tormund seeming a bit Dagda-ish doesn't help, along with the V6 prologue(not up to yet,) but he seems to almost think himself a god in a way. The titles they give themselves also seem to imply a, how shall i say, "demigoddish" presence. Can't remember but do Val and Dalla get into any old god talk? Should be up to it soon to see. Do we consider the Thenn's "Free Folk?" What really got me thinking on it was what makes a wildling like Craster (aside from his offerings/maybe even the reason he gives the offerings) different from the Free Folk? And of course the constant mentions of "Valar Dohaeris/Morgulis" and "Free Folk," along with the lack of of serving and dying in a way north of the Wall. ....crackpotty, but does it seem unrealistic to think the population of the wildlings came from flown down "crows" and the daughters they stole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMiddleHero Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 But valar dohaeris is also used re: gods. IE: Arya. Choosing to serve the many-faced god vs. the evil Valyrian masters. Seems to imply service is necessary. But am thinking it presents us with a false dilemma. ... Think you have a notion on what I am attempting to wrap my brain about here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 An unrelated crackpot also occurred to me the other day. So, in the legends, the giants were intelligent, clothed and built castles. But in modern times, they are just one step above animals - a bit like Hodor (though they can speak more than one word). Hodor is a perfect vessel for Bran (never mind the ethical implications, which are of course considerable) - mentally weak, thus unable to resist being warged, yet physically very powerful. What if... the giants of old were used by the CotF the way Bran is using Hodor? This could explain the major change we see in giants of old and today's giants- the ones today are free, and not controlled by Children... they are empty vessels. What changed? Well, if I had to guess, I'd say the Horn of Joramun was lost. Euron's Hellhorn supposedly allows the owner to control dragons, so perhaps Joramun's horn is used to control giants. (In which case, it could have even been humans who controlled them back in the day). Waking giants from the earth could refer to the sleeping greenseers, and restoring their ability to use the existing giants for useful tasks. Oooh! I like this! Leaf gives that speech about the old races. Includes the giants. So, how much are they included? One of the weakness listed for the Children is size--using the old races as a "collective"--with or without the giants' permission. That would help alleviate size issues. She also includes the direwolves--and Bran has been plugged into a tree. The idea that there are certain races the children is willing to co-opt, and that this has been foreshadowed with both Hodor and V6--that could work. Could also explain the "Last of the Giants" song. Yes, this has possibilities. I like this too, Maester Sam. But if anything, the Giants seem more advanced now than the stories would have Starks believe. Rather than being barbarous, and eating human blood porridge, they are vegan, and speak the Old Tongue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I like this too, Maester Sam. But if anything, the Giants seem more advanced now than the stories would have Starks believe. Rather than being barbarous, and eating human blood porridge, they are vegan, and speak the Old Tongue. There are 2 different kinds of giants... The giants that we have seen firsthand in the books & the 'Great Mountain Giants' who are talked about in the song & supposedly extinct... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tragedy at Summerhall Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Mel's shadow babies resembled Stannis ( davos and Cat both noticed) and the White Walkers we see all look alike so i assume they're all coming from the same "source". For me they seem very similar just from opposite ends of the spectrum (ice and fire), i could even imagine the White walkers taking a much less solid form (mist) like the shadow babies if say it wasnt so cold when they came. But what's odd is these shadow magic babies don't come from blood at all but from Stannis' "seed" which has me thinking maybe the W.Walkers come from a similar method. Which could mean the 13th lord commander was making these White walkers ( ice babies). And then you have to ask who was the icy woman the 13th commander ran into maybe its the equivalent to Val if she is some icy version of Melisandre Lots of parallels like that in the series. It would tie into the whole idea that the realm, Dany, and Aegon are missing the big picture. They are all fighting for the IT, when in reality, the song of ice and fire is the impending battle between the great other, who/whatever it may be and R'hllor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 There are 2 different kinds of giants... The giants that we have seen firsthand in the books & the 'Great Mountain Giants' who are talked about in the song & supposedly extinct... Really? I must admit I don't remember the Great Mountain variety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Really? I must admit I don't remember the Great Mountain variety. . . . says the Hierarchy of the Others guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 What really got me thinking on it was what makes a wildling like Craster (aside from his offerings/maybe even the reason he gives the offerings) different from the Free Folk? Three words: He wasn't different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 . . . says the Hierarchy of the Others guy. The Others take you Phil. LOL If you would stop lurking and join TLH, you'd see I'm far too busy/impaired by mixology to accurately recall such details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 There are 2 different kinds of giants... The giants that we have seen firsthand in the books & the 'Great Mountain Giants' who are talked about in the song & supposedly extinct... . . . says the Hierarchy of the Others guy. Okay, my inebriated fingers were able to search the text for the "Great Mountain Giants"... and apparently, they don't exist, as a proper noun at least. We have 5 mentions of "great mountain" in all the text, including one mention in the world book. Only one mention of "giants" of the "great mountain" and that one mention is from the song, quite properly titled, 'The Last of the Giants'... We know that song, while moving, is not accurate, as Giants still exist. There are no "Mountain Giants." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Okay, my inebriated fingers were able to search the text for the "Great Mountain Giants"... and apparently, they don't exist, as a proper noun at least. I fully agree that the theory that another race of giants exists is more speculative than any of your theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Dragons Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Only one mention of "giants" of the "great mountain" and that one mention is from the song, quite properly titled, 'The Last of the Giants'... We know that song, while moving, is not accurate, as Giants still exist. There are no "Mountain Giants." Unless, Ygritte's sad song was about the last of the mountain giants...and she says Jon Snow knows nothing... But seriously, the song talks of mountain giants? I'll have to dig up the song again and check it out. Would be interesting if we had different species of giants. Although, you'd think Qhorin Halfhand would've mentioned something before his demise in the Frostfangs. He seemed to be quite knowledgeable when it came to the mysteries and magic of the Great White North (not Canada, the other one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.