wolfmaid7 Posted September 6, 2015 Share Posted September 6, 2015 Old Nan offers to tell Bran the story of Bob the Builder, but he declines and opts instead to listen to the story of the Last Hero. Bob the Builder is specifically identified as a Stark and an ancestor of Bran. The Last Hero is conspicuously not so identified, far less linked to Bob the Builder. Similarly the Nights King although eventually identified as a Stark is quite clearly neither Bob the Builder nor the Last Hero who was chased through the woods. Yeah this is what i was saying basically they are two separate legendary figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 It matters because you haven't given reasons to show that he wasn't named heir? We have Rob thinking about it seriously......Not enough alone because he could change his mind,but we have Robb's feelings with plot that could see Jon be named heir.The whole speech my Wylla about the King in the North whose name is Stark could have been worded by the author to be gender neutral if that was the case. So i'm following your yellow brick road to a castle .How does that plot with Cat in her present state work,or is it just a dead end? Soooooo show me that he wasn't named heir. Instead of heir, we should be using successor for this conversation... Well, I gave my evidence upthread for why I believe that Cat was named successor, not Jon... There are some pretty big hints in ACOKs... As of right now, the books are not 100% clear... Do you have any evidence to add that it was Jon who was named successor? --- After Maege Mormont Signs Robb's Decree, she has a discussion with Cat about strong women being thrust into leadership positions... I take this as a really strong hint that it was not Jon, but Cat who was named as Robb's successor... You are usually the first person to jump on the bandwagon in support of any theory that elevates the status of a female character... You'll probably like this one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Its that sort of thing we've discussed in the past; wondering if there is a significance to the apparent change from bearded to un-bearded statues and why the Starks stopped becoming Kings of Winter [as proclaimed by Maege Mormont, also of this parish] and became Kings in the North instead. Was the Nights King the last King of Winter? Hmmm... Interesting... Posting Maege Mormont quotes... I bet someone has taken to trouble to look up the quote about strong women being thrust into leadership positions... It's a shame that you didn't take the time to post the full quote here, it must not support your theory that Jon was named Robb's successor... Just a guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Instead of heir, we should be using successor for this conversation... Well, I gave my evidence upthread for why I believe that Cat was named successor, not Jon... There are some pretty big hints in ACOKs... As of right now, the books are not 100% clear... Do you have any evidence to add that it was Jon who was named successor? --- After Maege Mormont Signs Robb's Decree, she has a discussion with Cat about strong women being thrust into leadership positions... I take this as a really strong hint that it was not Jon, but Cat who was named as Robb's successor... You are usually the first person to jump on the bandwagon in support of any theory that elevates the status of a female character... You'll probably like this one... On the contra i'm usually the first to support context ,evidence and or logic that can be followed. So let me sum what you have as "evidence."I'm in no part biased so don't play the "femcard" with me.On that note i think he might have legitimized Arya.In his speech when asking the Lords to affix their seals.He left her out of the list saying Bran and Rickon are dead,Sansa can' t get it and that's all....So possibly Arya. 1.Post 282 you said you had the impression Robb legitamized Cat 2.You then claimed- without posting the conversation- Maege Mormont suggested that Cat was the succesor.Additionally that there a "lot of clues supported" said claim. 3.You then gave an opinion that because Robb asked her opinion ( which he didn't he "told" Cat he was naming Jon his heir) and that he wanted to please her that,that somehow meant he was going to legitimize her.Post 299 I would say her decision making skills i.e freeing Jamie is cause alone for Robb not to legitimize her. Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb’s tone. “You forget. My father had four sons.” She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. “A Snow is not a Stark.” “Jon’s more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell.” “Jon is a brother of the Night’s Watch, sworn to take no wife and hold no lands. Those who take the black serve for life.” “So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon’s place, I’ll wager they find some way to release him from his vows.”He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. “A bastard cannot inherit.” “Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.” “Precedent,” she said bitterly. “Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.” “Jon would never harm a son of mine.” “No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?” Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon.” “So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa . . . your own sister, trueborn . . . ” “ . . . and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father’s head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice.” “I cannot,” she said. “In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this . . . this folly. Do not ask it.” “I don’t have to. I’m the king.” Robb turned and walked off, Grey Wind bounding down from the tomb and loping after him. 4. You then keep mentioning Maege's convo about strong women,which is the only "clue" you are suggesting..Not the "alot" that you told us about earlier. 5. Here's me looking to see what clues you are talking about. 6.Looking for that conversation. He advocates strongly for Jon There's plot point for Jon being named his heir He also lefts Arya out which means he could have legitimized her. I very much doubt its Cat on the basis of Robb knowing she's made two absurd judgement calls. Hmmm... Interesting... Posting Maege Mormont quotes... I bet someone has taken to trouble to look up the quote about strong women being thrust into leadership positions... It's a shame that you didn't take the time to post the full quote here, it must not support your theory that Jon was named Robb's successor... Just a guess... You do have google right ,then help your claim out by looking for quotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Just to put an end to this argument. There is NO discussion AT ALL between Catelyn and Maege Mormont following Robb's will being witnessed. The chapter ends at this point. Maege leaves for the Neck prior to the start of the next chapter. There is ONE conversation between Catelyn and Maege/Dacy Mormont in between her conversation with Robb and his will being signed. It does NOT even once mention women being thrust into leadership roles. It only says that women can be strong. I've quoted the entire conversation under the spoiler tag below [Spoiler]“My lady,”Maege Mormont said to her one morning as they rode through a steady rain, “you seem so somber. Is aught amiss?”My lord husband is dead, as is my father. Two of my sons have been murdered, my daughter has been given to a faithless dwarf to bear his vile children, my other daughter is vanished and likely dead, and my last son and my only brother are both angry with me. What could possibly be amiss? That was more truth than Lady Maege would wish to hear, however. “This is an evil rain,”she said instead. “We have suffered much, and there is more peril and more grief ahead. We need to face it boldly, with horns blowing and banners flying bravely. But this rain beats us down. The banners hang limp and sodden, and the men huddle under their cloaks and scarcely speak to one another. Only an evil rain would chill our hearts when most we need them to burn hot.”Dacey Mormont looked up at the sky. “I would sooner have water raining down on me than arrows.”Catelyn smiled despite herself. “You are braver than I am, I fear. Are all your Bear Island women such warriors?”“She-bears, aye,”said Lady Maege. “We have needed to be. In olden days the ironmen would come raiding in their longboats, or wildlings from the Frozen Shore. The men would be off fishing, like as not. The wives they left behind had to defend themselves and their children, or else be carried off.”“There’s a carving on our gate,”said Dacey. “A woman in a bearskin, with a child in one arm suckling at her breast. In the other hand she holds a battleaxe. She’s no proper lady, that one, but I always loved her.”“My nephew Jorah brought home a proper lady once,”said Lady Maege. “He won her in a tourney. How she hated that carving.”“Aye, and all the rest,”said Dacey. “She had hair like spun gold, that Lynesse. Skin like cream. But her soft hands were never made for axes.”“Nor her teats for giving suck,”her mother said bluntly. Catelyn knew of whom they spoke; Jorah Mormont had brought his second wife to Winterfell for feasts, and once they had guested for a fortnight. She remembered how young the Lady Lynesse had been, how fair, and how unhappy. One night, after several cups of wine, she had confessed to Catelyn that the north was no place for a Hightower of Oldtown. “There was a Tully of Riverrun who felt the same once,”she had answered gently, trying to console, “but in time she found much here she could love.”All lost now, she reflected. Winterfell and Ned, Bran and Rickon, Sansa, Arya, all gone. Only Robb remains. Had there been too much of Lynesse Hightower in her after all, and too little of the Starks? Would that I had known how to wield an axe, perhaps I might have been able to protect them better.[/spoiler] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 Hmmm... Interesting... Posting Maege Mormont quotes... I bet someone has taken to trouble to look up the quote about strong women being thrust into leadership positions... It's a shame that you didn't take the time to post the full quote here, it must not support your theory that Jon was named Robb's successor... Just a guess... Completely different conversation dear boy... Its much earlier and in the last Catelyn chapter in A Game of Thrones, when Robb and his followers are having a conference about what to do next, and the Greatoaf Umber points his sword at Robb: "There sits the only king I mean to bow the knee to, m'lords," he thundered. "The King in the North!" And he knelt, and laid his sword at her son's feet. Lord Karstark then joins him,,, "The King in the North!" he said, kneeling beside the Greatjon. Maege Mormont stood. "The King of Winter!" she declared, and laid her spiked mace beside the swords. And the river lords were rising too, Blackwood and Bracken and Mallister, houses who had never been ruled from Winterfell... And so on it goes until the chapter ends with a great chorus of "THE KING IN THE NORTH" The question, as I said, was why did Maege Mormont proclaim Robb by the old title King of Winter rather than King in the North like everybody else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 In story-telling terms all of this [and Jon's own reaction] is more than sufficient to justify R+L=J as a plot device. And at the end of the day, as I suggest, given all the pointers to a Stark connection to Winter its going to take a son of Winterfell rather than a son of Valyria to deal with it -So Lyanna being Jon's mother is important because it affirms his Stark-ness? Am I understanding your argument there? Because in that case I still don't see why Rhaegar was necessary at all. Jon could have been Ned's literal bastard son and nothing would change -But what's special about Jon is that he is a son of both. Respectfully, I think there's a big asymmetry in your thinking here. If GRRM wanted a character to embody only ice, why make them half dragon? Especially when there are plenty of Stark characters without any notable Valyrian blood? (remember that Jon utilizing some Targaryen ability does not require him to reject Ned as his father, or even to know who his biological father was) That would depend. What is the narrative? Whatever the ultimate narrative is, I imagine the Tower of Joy (and whatever might have motivated Rhaegar and/or Lyanna) is rather important to it Not at all, as I laid out above our presumption that Jon is the son of Lyanna has a tremendous amount going for it in plot terms. The problem I have with the Targaryen dimension is not that it exists, but in the tendency outside of these pages to assume that it is all important and that Jon is either a son of Valyria or will in some mysteriously magical way represent a union of Ice and Fire and therefore be able to tame both. Notwithstanding the latter defence of Rhaegar's supposed importance its worth returning to the synopsis which [Danaerys' invasion aside] is not about such a conflict but about the greatest threat of all coming from the north and its that one which needs to be defeated not by Fire but by Ice if an apocalypse is to be avoided. -Re. the bolded, aren't you doing the same thing? I.E. assuming that Jon will tame Ice in some "mysterious and magical way" because he is a King of Winter? Any resolution to the big conflict will likely come about in a "mysterious and magical way" - it's a fantasy series after all. -In the second paragraph it seems you're now minimizing not only Rhaegar/House Targaryen's role in the story, but the role of Fire itself. Is this really just a Song of Ice? :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Since we have Dany on the fire side, I would expect someone solely on the ice side. Who else but Jon? Bran would be my first guess. The other Stark children would also be contenders. Or the Others themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhail Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 I really love this monthly topic ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 -So Lyanna being Jon's mother is important because it affirms his Stark-ness? Am I understanding your argument there? Because in that case I still don't see why Rhaegar was necessary at all. Jon could have been Ned's literal bastard son and nothing would change -But what's special about Jon is that he is a son of both. Respectfully, I think there's a big asymmetry in your thinking here. If GRRM wanted a character to embody only ice, why make them half dragon? Especially when there are plenty of Stark characters without any notable Valyrian blood? (remember that Jon utilizing some Targaryen ability does not require him to reject Ned as his father, or even to know who his biological father was) Whatever the ultimate narrative is, I imagine the Tower of Joy (and whatever might have motivated Rhaegar and/or Lyanna) is rather important to it -Re. the bolded, aren't you doing the same thing? I.E. assuming that Jon will tame Ice in some "mysterious and magical way" because he is a King of Winter? Any resolution to the big conflict will likely come about in a "mysterious and magical way" - it's a fantasy series after all. -In the second paragraph it seems you're now minimizing not only Rhaegar/House Targaryen's role in the story, but the role of Fire itself. Is this really just a Song of Ice? :blink: So far as the original synopsis goes the story is a three-hander; the Game of Thrones which is lost by the Starks; the threat by Dany the Dragonlord [Fire] and her Dothraki horde, and; finally the Ice in the North. There's certainly going to be magic involved in the resolution but my argument is that Ice must be defeated by Ice, not Fire because that would be disastrous - as suggested in a number of ways by GRRM [cf. Benero]. Indeed I might go so far as to argue that far from a unity of Ice and Fire being required, there may in the end need to be a lesser conflict to prevent those representing Fire interfere in the cubing of Winter. As to the tower of joy, as I've said it may well serve to establish that Jon is the son of Lyanna, but Rhaegar is a red herring. Not that I doubt his parentage but that the pursuit of Jon as the Targaryen heir may be a device to obscure Lyanna's importance as hinted by the story of Bael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 I really love this monthly topic ^_^ Welcome to Heresy, and is it the current topic which interests you or the general diversity? Join in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Just to put an end to this argument. There is NO discussion AT ALL between Catelyn and Maege Mormont following Robb's will being witnessed. The chapter ends at this point. Maege leaves for the Neck prior to the start of the next chapter. There is ONE conversation between Catelyn and Maege/Dacy Mormont in between her conversation with Robb and his will being signed. It does NOT even once mention women being thrust into leadership roles. It only says that women can be strong. I've quoted the entire conversation under the spoiler tag below [Spoiler][/spoiler] I never said that it was at the end of that chapter... Read upthread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Cat was Robb's Successor, plain & simple... -- What, is this a strong woman theory that Wolfmaid is not not immediately jumping behind??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 snip Nothing you said proves that he chose Jon, only that he thought about it... The posters on this board often fail to see GRRM's misdirection... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 Cat was Robb's Successor, plain & simple... Thus far you've failed to provide any textual evidence for your theory, whilst all the textual evidence shown by others so far clearly states the opposite; that Robb legitimised Jon in defiance of his mother's wishes and at no point was there any suggestion that Catelyn should become Lord of Winterfell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 GRRM was asked if he was going to tie up all the loose ends with the letters that were sent to Howland Reed & Robb's Successor & all that... He said that he HOPED to tie up all those loose ends... but it didn't sound optimistic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Thus far you've failed to provide any textual evidence for your theory, whilst all the textual evidence shown by others so far clearly states the opposite; that Robb legitimised Jon in defiance of his mother's wishes and at no point was there any suggestion that Catelyn should become Lord of Winterfell I don't have any books... & I'm really not that interested in educating you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 I never said that it was at the end of that chapter... Read upthread... Cat was Robb's Successor, plain & simple... -- What, is this a strong woman theory that Wolfmaid is not not immediately jumping behind??? Nothing you said proves that he chose Jon, only that he thought about it... The posters on this board often fail to see GRRM's misdirection... I don't have any books... & I'm really not that interested in educating you :bowdown: I can only admire your stubbornness of discussing the topic armed with no evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 I don't have any books... & I'm really not that interested in educating you Ah well,there's the problem... Its very difficult to argue against or agree with a proposition when no textual evidence is offered - especially when the available evidence flatfly contradicts said proposition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 I never said that it was at the end of that chapter... Read upthread... Perhaps reading Lady Dyanna's post would help. The discussion with Robb ended the chapter. The only subsequent conversation was the one transcribed under the spoiler tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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