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JaegrM

Bloodraven and Mel Both Wrong?

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Ok....
I haven't had time to consult the books, and I'm not sure how I'd search for this to see if it's been addressed already, but on my way home I had a thought-

 

Mel thinks Stannis is AA. We pretty much know she's completely wrong. When searching for him in the fires all she see's is "Snow".  Pretty heavily hinting that Jon may be/is AA.

 

Jojen is sent visions of a winged wolf in chains, presumably by Bloodraven, this is believed to be Bran.
But what if it's not?

A winged Wolf could rationally be seen as a wolf/dragon type of hybrid. If R+L=J.... that would be Jon.

The chains could easily be viewed as the oaths he's sworn to the watch.

So what if Ned did too good of a job protecting Jon/Westeros from the truth? We'd have two false saviors in opposing sides.

That's pretty much as coherent as I can make this idea at the time.

Feel free to punch holes in this, I'm in no way certain of it. I just wanted to get it out before it slipped my mind.

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Sounds okay to me.

 

The winged wolf really works either way.  Bran is "flying" now and it did take Jojen and Meera helping him escape his "chains" for that to happen.  But yes that could be a diredragon instead.  Only question is what role would Jojen have in removing Jon's chains?  That dream seemed to be directing Jojen North to free said wolf.  

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Only question is what role would Jojen have in removing Jon's chains?  That dream seemed to be directing Jojen North to free said wolf.  

 

Well, I'm operating on the assumption that dreams/prophecies seem to often be in the form of metaphors/symbolism, as far as I can remember Bloodraven can't see the future, if he had first had the vision of the winged wolf in chains and wrongfully made the assumption that it was Bran I didn't think it was out of the question for him to... 'pass it on' to Jojen via his dreams.

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Jojen interprets his dreams for himself. Remember also that Jojen and Meera were eager to see the wolves for themselves at WF when they arrrived at the harvest feast. Bran wanted to show them himself, but was tired and went to bed, and Jojen and Meera went to the godswood all by themselves to see the wolves. Later Jojen said he could see/feel Bran in there. It seems to me that Jojen was not sure at first which wolf he dreamt about, but wanted to verify that the wolf he saw was linked to Bran. Shaggydog is black. Ghost is albino and north of the wall on the great ranging. Bran's Summer is grey. Jojen identified Bran as the chained winged wolf based on the coloring of the wolf he saw, which would have been Summer. That's how he identified Bran being the chained winged wolf, and why Meera and Jojen wanted to see the direwolves asap when they arrived at WF. If Jojen had been dreaming of Jon, he'd have seen Ghost, the white albino wolf.

 

On top of that, Mel sees BR and a "wolf" beside him through the flames looking back at her.

 

The greensight dreams are accurate, as proven by GoHH. Mel's visions in the flames are accurate too. It's just the interpreting that's a problem. BR also doesn't claim that Bran is Azor Ahai, just that he's a greenseer, which he is.

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Jojen interprets his dreams for himself. Remember also that Jojen and Meera were eager to see the wolves for themselves at WF when they arrrived at the harvest feast. Bran wanted to show them himself, but was tired and went to bed, and Jojen and Meera went to the godswood all by themselves to see the wolves. Later Jojen said he could see/feel Bran in there. It seems to me that Jojen was not sure at first which wolf he dreamt about, but wanted to verify that the wolf he saw was linked to Bran. Shaggydog is black. Ghost is albino and north of the wall on the great ranging. Bran's Summer is grey. Jojen identified Bran as the chained winged wolf based on the coloring of the wolf he saw, which would have been Summer. That's how he identified Bran being the chained winged wolf, and why Meera and Jojen wanted to see the direwolves asap when they arrived at WF. If Jojen had been dreaming of Jon, he'd have seen Ghost, the white albino wolf.
 
On top of that, Mel sees BR and a "wolf" beside him through the flames looking back at her.
 
The greensight dreams are accurate, as proven by GoHH. Mel's visions in the flames are accurate too. It's just the interpreting that's a problem. BR also doesn't claim that Bran is Azor Ahai, just that he's a greenseer, which he is.

Uh, yup.

Op had me thinking for a second, but as usual, and despite any effort on my part, I can't refute anything you ever say. :bowdown:

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I think that assuming that Jojen's dreams originate with Bloodraven is questionable. BR is powerful but the Reeds have their own powers.

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I think that assuming that Jojen's dreams originate with Bloodraven is questionable. BR is powerful but the Reeds have their own powers.

Jojen dreamed of the 3EC since he was a child. Fair to assume that BR sent those dreams (until a better candidate appears).

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They're both right.   They're both opposing what needs opposing.    They're both in the dark, though, and may not know what tactic is best to pursue.    Seeing him as the great other was a case of friendly fire developing.   Her radar screen is steamed up by the fog of war, and the enemy is notoriously stingy with giving out information since they kill or transform everyone they meet.   So she saw someone transformed by great magics and assumed it could only be the enemy.   Jon if he can talk may get the chance to educate her about how she's not alone in the darkness but can count on the aid of the trees.... which she should probably stop burning.

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I think that assuming that Jojen's dreams originate with Bloodraven is questionable. BR is powerful but the Reeds have their own powers.

 That too, yes.

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Jojen dreamed of the 3EC since he was a child. Fair to assume that BR sent those dreams (until a better candidate appears).

 

BR sends the 3-eyed-raven dreams, to open the 3rd eye. But the warg dreams and the greensight dreams are imo not sent by person or force. They just are, to be picked up/dreamt by someone with the greensight or a greenseer.

 

Jojen's greensight was awoken by the 3EC when he was stricken by fever. Bran only has the 3EC dreams while in a coma IIRC.

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Uh, yup.

Op had me thinking for a second, but as usual, and despite any effort on my part, I can't refute anything you ever say. :bowdown:

 

The OP posed a subtextual good question: how could Jojen know the winged wolf was Bran when there are 4 wolves (with Lady dead already)? All the Stark children seemed to be chained in some way: Sansa as a hostage in KL, Arya as Weasel-mouse in HH, Bran crippled at WF, Rickon no more than 4 at WF, Jon bound by his NW vows, Robb bound by being declared KitN to fight for independence.

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Jojen is sent visions of a winged wolf in chains, presumably by Bloodraven, this is believed to be Bran.

But what if it's not?

A winged Wolf could rationally be seen as a wolf/dragon type of hybrid. If R+L=J.... that would be Jon.

The chains could easily be viewed as the oaths he's sworn to the watch.

Perhaps Jojen was meant to help bring Bran to BR so that Bran could free Jon from his Vows (chains).

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Ok....
I haven't had time to consult the books, and I'm not sure how I'd search for this to see if it's been addressed already, but on my way home I had a thought-

 

Mel thinks Stannis is AA. We pretty much know she's completely wrong. When searching for him in the fires all she see's is "Snow".  Pretty heavily hinting that Jon may be/is AA.

 

Jojen is sent visions of a winged wolf in chains, presumably by Bloodraven, this is believed to be Bran.
But what if it's not?

A winged Wolf could rationally be seen as a wolf/dragon type of hybrid. If R+L=J.... that would be Jon.

The chains could easily be viewed as the oaths he's sworn to the watch.

So what if Ned did too good of a job protecting Jon/Westeros from the truth? We'd have two false saviors in opposing sides.

That's pretty much as coherent as I can make this idea at the time.

Feel free to punch holes in this, I'm in no way certain of it. I just wanted to get it out before it slipped my mind.

 

What exactly is your issue with Bloodraven, Jae ?

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Winged Wolf is Bran. He is flying now. This flight represents the opening of his third eye and unlocking his potential.

 

Bran means raven BTW.

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What exactly is your issue with Bloodraven, Jae ?

I don't have any issue with him.
I think he's fascinating, but he's still just a man, and men make mistakes. despite all of his abilities

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What exactly is your issue with Bloodraven, Jae ?

I don't have any issue with him.
I think he's fascinating, but he's still just a man, and men make mistakes. despite all of his abilities

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he's still just a man

 

Au contraire,

 

He's got the blood of both the Targs and the First Men.

 

Powerful combo, you must admit.

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A winged wolf does not equate to dragon.   It's very likely symbolic of Bran warging ravens and crows. 

 

The winged wolf could just as easily be Rickon.  The stone chain is signicant.  We know the Skaagosi are known as the stone men. 

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A winged wolf does not equate to dragon.   It's very likely symbolic of Bran warging ravens and crows. 

 

The winged wolf could just as easily be Rickon.  The stone chain is signicant.  We know the Skaagosi are known as the stone men. 

 

The Skagossi are known as cannibals...

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