How can Jaime justify his kingslaying?

[David Selig]

When he easily could've overpowered Aerys and left the killing to someone who wasn't sworn to protect him?

Easy. He killed a monster that deserved death 10 times over. Good riddance.

[Mithras]

When Aerys understood that the blood on Jaime's sword was Rossart's, he lost the control of his bowels. Perhaps the stink was so abominable that Jaime thought he might choke.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Brienne is the only person he's confided in, as far as we readers know.  In the bathhouse in Harrenhall. In the end he collapses and Brienne calls for help for the Kingslayer, and just before he passes out, Jaime thinks, "Jaime. My name is Jaime." I thought that a very poignant moment and that's when I first started to "get" Jaime.
 
Brienne is also probably the only person Jaime has told (between the lines) how horrified and traumatised he was about Aerys's actions. When it seems imminent that Brienne will get raped by Vargo Hoat's men, he tells her to "go away inside", "that's what I did". He then tells how he had to witness Aerys roasting Rickard Stark with Brandon Stark strangling himself to death trying to save his father. Jaime was obviously very traumatised by that event, and coped by adopting an arrogant, devil-may-care cynical attitude. He was a teenager when this all happened. Now he's in his thirties and finally confronting and coming to terms with everything that went on.
 
Uugh, I'm beginning to sound like an amateur psychologist. :blushing: :frown5:

Right i think when Jaime saw Rickard roasted and the cruel way Brandon chocked on those chains, it was a turning point. He would act on it (and Aery's other behavior) after years of it gnawing on him.

[sweetsunray]

Hahaha!

 

I love your dialogue. 

 

Jaime already sullied his honor by killing him, and I don't think he wanted to stoop even lower by not owning up to it. I think it shows his strength that he was willing to sacrifice his reputation by admitting what he'd done and not even trying to justify it by explaining why. 

 

Jaime did not want to sully his honor at all by killing him... he was discovered before he could make his getaway. He snuck in, and hoped to flee the scene, before anyone could discover it had been him.

 

 

But when he closed his eyes, it was Aerys Targaryen he saw, pacing alone in his throne room, picking at his scabbed and bleeding hands. The fool was always cutting himself on the blades and barbs of the Iron Throne. Jaime had slipped in through the king's door, clad in his golden armor, sword in hand. The golden armor, not the white, but no one ever remembers that. Would that I had taken off that damned cloak as well.

When Aerys saw the blood on his blade, he demanded to know if it was Lord Tywin's. "I want him dead, the traitor. I want his head, you'll bring me his head, or you'll burn with all the rest. All the traitors. Rossart says they are inside the walls! He's gone to make them a warm welcome. Whose blood? Whose?"

"Rossart's," answered Jaime.

Those purple eyes grew huge then, and the royal mouth drooped open in shock. He lost control of his bowels, turned, and ran for the Iron Throne. Beneath the empty eyes of the skulls on the walls, Jaime hauled the last dragonking bodily off the steps, squealing like a pig and smelling like a privy. A single slash across his throat was all it took to end it. So easy, he remembered thinking. A king should die harder than this. Rossart at least had tried to make a fight of it, though if truth be told he fought like an alchemist. Queer that they never ask who killed Rossart . . . but of course, he was no one, lowborn, Hand for a fortnight, just another mad fancy of the Mad King.

Ser Elys Westerling and Lord Crakehall and others of his father's knights burst into the hall in time to see the last of it, so there was no way for Jaime to vanish and let some braggart steal the praise or blame. It would be blame, he knew at once when he saw the way they looked at him . . . though perhaps that was fear. Lannister or no, he was one of Aerys's seven.

"The castle is ours, ser, and the city," Roland Crakehall told him, which was half true. Targaryen loyalists were still dying on the serpentine steps and in the armory, Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch were scaling the walls of Maegor's Holdfast, and Ned Stark was leading his northmen through the King's Gate even then, but Crakehall could not have known that. He had not seemed surprised to find Aerys slain; Jaime had been Lord Tywin's son long before he had been named to the Kingsguard.

"Tell them the Mad King is dead," he commanded. "Spare all those who yield and hold them captive." (aSoS, Jaime II)

 

Sue, he did a great deed by killing Rossart, and by preventing Aerys' from commanding anyone else to burn KL. But there are several mythical beliefs it seems to me about Jaime's actions.

 

1 - done on impulse because Aerys ordered him to kill Tywin. Clearly Jaime slipping in the throne room and having killed Rossart already shows us that Jaime had premeditated murder intentions. Aerys didn't fear Jaime just after he gave the order, but after he asked whose blood was on Jaime's swords, and then Aerys definitely realized in complete shock that Jaime had come with the intention to slay him.

 

2 - that Ned was the first to either find him or look at him with derision. Not true. Even his father's men, and Crakehal and Westerling looked at him with "blame" in their eyes. And Crakehal seems to think that Jaime betrayed his vow and king because he was a Lannister.

 

3 - Jaime slipped in and hoped to do the deed without being discovered by anyone, but his father's men were partly witnesses to it. He couldn't escape anymore, nor deny it.

 

4 - and while Raving the Stark Mad makes a good point about psychotic men seeming to be on steroids and requiring strength to be overpowered, it does not seem to be case between Jaime and Aerys. Aerys attempted to flee as soon as he realized why Jaime was there, and emptied his bowels in fear. He easily dragged him off the steps and killed him, even many years later thinking it shouldn't be that easy to kill a king.

 

It's a premeditated butcher scene of a weak man... It kindof reminds me of the images in '89 of the military trial of Caucescu and his wife and then their execution. While I agree with the motivation of that tribunal and see the necessity of the outcome (Caucescu and his wife were nutters in their ivory tower, completely out of touch with reality and out to keep power) of those events, it's a rather dark page of history I witnessed during Christmas holidays at the time. And I believe those who were on the tribunal of that military trial are until this day still anonymous. GRRM writes the scene in a similar manner imo. 

[talvikorppi]

Did you not notice I agreed with your assessment of the situation? I never said Jaime could have completely upheld his vows. I said he could have not killed him and made himself a kingslayer in the eyes of the realm. The rest is moot & already discussed.

 

I'm sorry if I've not noticed your agreement with the assessement of the situation. I apologise, and blame the forum for loading pages so slowly.

 

However... If Jaime had not killed Aerys, he (Jaime) might not have earned the moniker "Kingslayer" but that's moot because everybody in KL at the time would be dead, nobody to tell the story.

 

Is it somehow better to not uphold your KG vows in a more mild way, letting somebody else kill the king, for a selfish point of your own honour? And considering what we know of KG vows, Jaime could not have done it, he was sworn to protect the king till death. OK, so he'd be honourable but dead. And possibly half a million other people.

 

Whichever way you turn this dilemma, Jaime was going to come out dead or dishounoured. He probably didn't think all this through at the time, he acted on instinct to save hundreds of thousands of innocents - as he was sworn to do when he was anointed as a knight.

 

The whole point why GRRM has included this episode (among others) is to make us readers think about these moral dilemmas. Oath/obedience vs. free will/ethically right action.

 

The irony is that Jaime acted for the greater good and has ever since been despised for it, and it has blighted his whole life. He became an arrogant, cynical shit. In a way Vargo Hoat did him a service by chopping off his sword hand. He's had to reassess himself and confront his past deeds. He can no longer solve every problem by the sword.

 

Everybody can probably guess that I find Jaime an interesting and compelling character. :laugh:

[FacelessDude]

I agree with you on this matter. Jaime was commanded to murder his own father by Aerys II and he told Rossart to burn the entire city! He act to act quickly, he had no time to sit and think. He basically went with his gut feeling and just got it done.

 

Aerys' former Hand was sacking the city with a force of 12,000 because he put to much trust into Pycelle and took his shitty advice to open the gates of King's Landing. Jaime didn't want to kill his father and he didn't want to see King's Landing and all it's citizens go up in flames. Of course many innocent people were slain and the entire city was sacked and pillaged but the great King's Landing wasn't completely annihilated by flames.

 

Imagine what would've happened if Rossart wasn't neutralized and he did ignite the wildfire caches. It would've been a fiery holocaust and King's Landing would be no more, wiped off the map. Basically Jaime chose the lesser of two evils and saved King's Landing.

 

Jaime's swift decisions resulted in a better outcome. Which shows he's not so ruthless as many people think he is.

 

I know people will say "but he threw a young boy from a tower because he was caught fucking his sister." He is known to act before he thinks rather than think before he acts. Furthermore, Jaime becomes a better person later on in the series. He is humbled after he loses his hand and not so arrogant, he also starts to realize how vain and narcissistic Cersei is when he returns to King's Landing.

[sweetsunray]

I agree with you on this matter. Jaime was commanded to murder his own father by Aerys II and he told Rossart to burn the entire city! He act to act quickly, he had no time to sit and think. He basically went with his gut feeling and just got it done.

 

 

Does this in any way sound like "on impulse, acting quickly, because Aerys ordered him to kill his own father?"

 

 

But when he closed his eyes, it was Aerys Targaryen he saw, pacing alone in his throne room, picking at his scabbed and bleeding hands. The fool was always cutting himself on the blades and barbs of the Iron Throne. Jaime had slipped in through the king's door, clad in his golden armor, sword in hand. The golden armor, not the white, but no one ever remembers that. Would that I had taken off that damned cloak as well.

When Aerys saw the blood on his blade, he demanded to know if it was Lord Tywin's. "I want him dead, the traitor. I want his head, you'll bring me his head, or you'll burn with all the rest. All the traitors. Rossart says they are inside the walls! He's gone to make them a warm welcome. Whose blood? Whose?"

"Rossart's," answered Jaime.

Those purple eyes grew huge then, and the royal mouth drooped open in shock. He lost control of his bowels, turned, and ran for the Iron Throne.

 

Jaime entered with premeditation to kill him, before he even demanded Tywin's death.

[VenezuelanLord]

Isn't Jaime character established as a shoot first ask later type of guy? I don't mean by this that he is a bad guy, just that he doesn't really think about the consequences of his actions, yes he could have spared Aerys, but he acted on the impulse to kill the old fart, after all he had just asked for his father head, and had threatened with burning the whole city with wildfire, that's why his character developed better when he lost the hability to act on impulse ( he lost his sword hand) and started thinking about the implication of his actions..I hated Jaime as a KG , i loved Jaime as a cripple and a peace seeker..

[sweetsunray]

Isn't Jaime character established as a shoot first ask later type of guy? I don't mean by this that he is a bad guy, just that he doesn't really think about the consequences of his actions, yes he could have spared Aerys, but he acted on the impulse to kill the old fart, after all he had just asked for his father head, and had threatened with burning the whole city with wildfire, that's why his character developed better when he lost the hability to act on impulse ( he lost his sword hand) and started thinking about the implication of his actions..I hated Jaime as a KG , i loved Jaime as a cripple and a peace seeker..

 

No, he does not act on impulse. He is pro-active, which is an entirely different thing. People mistake it for "impulsiveness", but that's not true. Not for the execution of Aerys, nor when he throws Bran out of the window. I think it is one of biggest misconceptions about Jaime altogether. He acts pre-meditated and with cold blooded determination - not rash and impulsive. 

[Lady Sharya]

However... If Jaime had not killed Aerys, he (Jaime) might not have earned the moniker "Kingslayer" but that's moot because everybody in KL at the time would be dead, nobody to tell the story.

Jaime had already killed Rossart (the Hand & head of Alchemists), the guy he gave the orders to.
 

Is it somehow better to not uphold your KG vows in a more mild way, letting somebody else kill the king, for a selfish point of your own honour? And considering what we know of KG vows, Jaime could not have done it, he was sworn to protect the king till death. OK, so he'd be honourable but dead. And possibly half a million other people.

Jaime was going to protect his honor by sneaking out. He got caught.;) the difference is he could have owned his actions or not done it. Arguing why he shouldn't have broken his vows is moot. No one is saying Jaime was wrong to stop Aerys, it's how he did it and behaved afterwards.
 

The irony is that Jaime acted for the greater good and has ever since been despised for it, and it has blighted his whole life. He became an arrogant, cynical shit. In a way Vargo Hoat did him a service by chopping off his sword hand. He's had to reassess himself and confront his past deeds. He can no longer solve every problem by the sword.

This the main reason I think he should have detained Aerys instead of killing him....because he himself regrets it, not for the reason but for act itself. He had better options but behaved impulsively. Later, he simply let his arrogance at being judged prevent an explanation for his actions.

[VenezuelanLord]

 
No, he does not act on impulse. He is pro-active, which is an entirely different thing. People mistake it for "impulsiveness", but that's not true. Not for the execution of Aerys, nor when he throws Bran out of the window. I think it is one of biggest misconceptions about Jaime altogether. He acts pre-meditated and with cold blooded determination - not rash and impulsive. 

Even tyrion and cersei described him as impulsive, iirc

[sweetsunray]

Even tyrion and cersei described him as impulsive, iirc

 

Even in-world Jaime is misunderstood ;) He's an action man, yes. But taking action =/= impulsiveness. That's the mistake people make imo. Confrontational action personalities are not necessarily impulsive. They may seem that way, but they usually have a pro-active mind, and can act very calculating. They will act resolute and without delay. Since less pro-active minds haven't thought it out yet, they end up judging it as impulsive. But both scenes - Aerys' execution and Bran's shoving out of the window - reveal unemotional pre-meditation.

[VenezuelanLord]

 
Even in-world Jaime is misunderstood ;)

Im just saying, his whole arc seems to be about leaving that impulsiveness behind, and he does, right when vargo chopped his hand off

[FacelessDude]

Are you saying it was premeditated?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jaime entered with premeditation to kill him, before he even demanded Tywin's death.

 

No.

 

 

"It fell to me to hold the Red Keep, but I knew we were lost. I sent to Aerys asking his leave to make terms. My man came back with a royal command. 'Bring me your father's head, if you are no traitor.' Aerys would have no yielding. Lord Rossart was with him, my messenger said. I knew what that meant.

"When I came on Rossart, he was dressed as a common man-at-arms, hurrying to a postern gate. I slew him first. Then I slew Aerys

[FacelessDude]

Are you saying that Aerys' murder was premeditated?

[sweetsunray]

Are you saying it was premeditated?

 

Yes.

[talvikorppi]

.....

 

I know people will say "but he threw a young boy from a tower because he was caught fucking his sister." He is known to act before he thinks rather than think before he acts. Furthermore, Jaime becomes a better person later on in the series. He is humbled after he loses his hand and not so arrogant, he also starts to realize how vain and narcissistic Cersei is when he returns to King's Landing.

 

Plus he first caught the falling Bran, stood him on the windowsill (=saved him). Then Cersei shrieks "what are you doing" or WTTE, only then Jaime - quite callously - shoves Bran out the windoo. "The things I do for love". Yes, wrong and a very bad deed. But Jaime's first instinct was to save the falling boy, Cersei's to let him fall and die. Jaime was still Cersei's lapdog at this time. He could've excercised his own free will but chose to do what Cersei wanted. (Later on Cersei, of course, blames it all on Jaime.)

 

Jaime is just one of the many interesting "grey" characters in ASOIAF. I'm really looking forward to reading what happens to him in TWOW.

[sweetsunray]

 

No.

 

 

"It fell to me to hold the Red Keep, but I knew we were lost. I sent to Aerys asking his leave to make terms. My man came back with a royal command. 'Bring me your father's head, if you are no traitor.' Aerys would have no yielding. Lord Rossart was with him, my messenger said. I knew what that meant.

"When I came on Rossart, he was dressed as a common man-at-arms, hurrying to a postern gate. I slew him first. Then I slew Aerys

 

That's just Jaime making it sound as if done on impulse and continuing the story Tywin's men told themselves. Of course he's not going to confess it was premeditated. The act was not done on impulse or even emotionally. We have Jaime's own inner memory for it.

 

But when he closed his eyes, it was Aerys Targaryen he saw, pacing alone in his throne room, picking at his scabbed and bleeding hands. The fool was always cutting himself on the blades and barbs of the Iron Throne. Jaime had slipped in through the king's door, clad in his golden armor, sword in hand. The golden armor, not the white, but no one ever remembers that. Would that I had taken off that damned cloak as well.

When Aerys saw the blood on his blade, he demanded to know if it was Lord Tywin's. "I want him dead, the traitor. I want his head, you'll bring me his head, or you'll burn with all the rest. All the traitors. Rossart says they are inside the walls! He's gone to make them a warm welcome. Whose blood? Whose?"

"Rossart's," answered Jaime.

Those purple eyes grew huge then, and the royal mouth drooped open in shock. He lost control of his bowels, turned, and ran for the Iron Throne.

[VenezuelanLord]

 
That's just Jaime making it sound as if done on impulse and continuing the story Tywin's men told themselves. Of course he's not going to confess it was premeditated.
 

You are quoting a fever dream? That doesn't sound like good evidence, it may well be Jaime's feverish reenactment of the situation, not necessarily what really happened