How can Jaime justify his kingslaying?

[Lady Sharya]

I think this is a distinction without a difference. "Animosity towards" lannisters such that he was predisposed negatively towards them is basically the definition of prejudice.
And again this does not have to mean he treated anyone unfairly. Ned was a better man than to let his prejudices alter his actions much.

I don't mean to seem argumentative but there is a difference between having animosity toward Tywin, Jaime & possibly Cersei and being predisposed to have prejudice against Lannisters. I understand that you have no problem with Ned being prejudice, but I strongly disagree that he was.

I was speaking more in the context of the current discussion about whether Ned was hypocritical or not. The fact that it looked like Jaime abandoned the king and joined his father's forces instead of being true to his vows is true but this fact was never mention or even hinted in Ned's POV chapters. When Ned actually discussed Jaime with Robert, the only issue he mentioned was that Jaime was a bastard because he killed Aerys while being his kingsguard and that he sat on his throne later and laughed. Ned even himself acknowledged that he would have killed Aerys himself and it would be acceptable, but Jaime doing that was unacceptable. If Jaime joining his father was why Ned despised him, he would have surely mentioned that to Robert when he was trying to prove him that Jaime couldn't be trusted. But no, he was only telling "omg, kingslayer"!

I don't think Ned's bigest problem with Jaime was the perception that he joined his father. I think it was killing his king and sitting on his throne laughing about it.

[Dofs]

As I said, I misremembered the place of the quote, and thereby made a wrong initial suggestion in this thread. Mistakes can happen. I don't mind being pointed out that I misremembered, misinterpreted something. And I completely agree that the quote does not contradict the memory, and neither suggest he acted on impulse (which was my point to begin with anyway). Do you want me to hear say 3 x sorry or something because I made a mistake?  Fine: I'm sorry that I made a mistake. I'm sorry I made a mistake. I'm sorry I made a mistake.

 

The sole and only reason I refrained from answering the other poster was because of completely unrelated personal gauding regarding Pulp Fiction and what I regard as trolling. If I'm ignoring someone, I ignore the complete post.

I was simply addressing what you have written: 

 

 

If you ignore the memories, and only rely on that quote without the context of what he says earlier, it can be seen as implying to impulsiveness and emotionality. 

And I simply disagreed with it. I guess you were actually conceding here and I misunderstood you.

 

His decision is entirely rational - "I knew what that meant" -> "wildfire plot".

 

And no, I don't think waiting for the victim to realize he's going to be killed implies emotions at all. It can be, but not necessarily. It emphasises calmth and determination and is the opposite of impulsive. It reveals schadenfreude, which is not necessarily emotional motivation, but enjoying the moment, and getting the most out of it power-feeling like. The line about "I knew what that meant" already establishes rational decision over emotional.

 

A rational decision can be as much emotional, these are not contradicting factors. Yes, Jaime understood that the king was about to blow up the city, he was not an idiot after all, and killed the king to prevent that. He told as much to Brienne. Which does not change the fact that he saw how the king burned people alive, was raping his wife and that all that deeply traumatized Jaime. Add to that the order to kill Tywin just to pile things up and all that would lead to the act being emotional as well.

 

Him not rushing to the Throne Room and killing the king as fast as possible also does not at all mean that the act was not emotional. It just shows that it wasn't impulsive and just from that you can't make a conclusion about emotionality of the act.

[sweetsunray]

A rational decision can be as much emotional, these are not contradicting factors. Yes, Jaime understood that the king was about to blow up the city, he was not an idiot after all, and killed the king to prevent that. He told as much to Brienne. Which does not change the fact that he saw how the king burned people alive, was raping his wife and that all that deeply traumatized Jaime. Add to that the order to kill Tywin just to pile things up and all that would lead to the act being emotional as well.

 

Him not rushing to the Throne Room and killing the king as fast as possible also does not at all mean that the act was not emotional. It just shows that it wasn't impulsive and just from that you can't make a conclusion about emotionality of the act.

 

What we read as told by his memory is emotionless, rather factual, except for a few cynical mentions. He didn't feel or experience any emotions in those paragraphs. Not that he is without emotions. He probably went deep inside, was dissociative.

[Hodor's Speechwriter]

If it wasn't Jaime it would have been Robert or Ned.  Actually, it might even have been Gregor Clegane on Tywin's order.  Aerys was not ever going to survive the sack of King's Landing.  

True, but Jaime shouldn't be the one that makes that call. As Kingsguard, he's the last person who should get to decide when the King needs to be assassinated. However, he didn't swear to protect his secrets, so if he felt Aerys needed to go, he could've taken the evidence to someone else. Also, if you're really motivated by the safety of everyone in KL, why haven't you told them sometime in the last 15 years that they're all sitting on basically a giant live bomb?

[INCBlackbird]

True, but Jaime shouldn't be the one that makes that call. As Kingsguard, he's the last person who should get to decide when the King needs to be assassinated. However, he didn't swear to protect his secrets, so if he felt Aerys needed to go, he could've taken the evidence to someone else. Also, if you're really motivated by the safety of everyone in KL, why haven't you told them sometime in the last 15 years that they're all sitting on basically a giant live bomb?

vows shouldn't be more important than doing the right thing. If the king is killing innocent people the kingsguard should be able to turn against him without judgement. everyone knew aerys was mad, Jaime was just the person who did something about it.

[Dofs]

 

What we read as told by his memory is emotionless, rather factual, except for a few cynical mentions. He didn't feel or experience any emotions in those paragraphs. Not that he is without emotions. He probably went deep inside, was dissociative.

Well, duh. That memory was not a full flashback, it was Jaime recalling events that happened more than 15 years ago. When you are recalling something that happened a decade ago, do you remember it with the same spectrum of emotions that you had when it happened?

 

But the fact that the memory came unbidden to him, that just after that memory Jaime had a nightmare where he was fighting endless flow of dead people burning with green fire coming at him and that after 15 years Jaime still feels uneasy when he is in burnt places shows how "emotionless" the memory actually was. 

[sweetsunray]

Well, duh. That memory was not a full flashback, it was Jaime recalling events that happened more than 15 years ago. When you are recalling something that happened a decade ago, do you remember it with the same spectrum of emotions that you had when it happened?

 

But the fact that the memory came unbidden to him, that just after that memory Jaime had a nightmare where he was fighting endless flow of dead people burning with green fire coming at him and that after 15 years Jaime still feels uneasy when he is in burnt places shows how "emotionless" the memory actually was. 

 

Actually, that's usually what reminiscing on memories does, especially in the resting state (resting, but still conscious). When someone reminisces emotions resurface. It's actually one of the subconscious reasons we do it at all. And it's one of the reasons why some mental and emotional healing includes the advice to not recall certain very painful memories at all. 

 

GRRM uses vocabulary to imply emotional and mental states. And that is remarkably absent in the memory. It's cold and factual. There's no emotion in those scenes, none.

 

The dream of burning people is a tie to his trauma of having witnessed people being burned by wildfire on Aerys' orders, yes. That did traumatize him and disgusted him. But the dream is not the memory. It's related, but it doesn't prove Jaime was emotional when he went to the throne room to kill Aerys, let alone when he killed him.

[Dofs]

Actually, that's usually what reminiscing on memories does, especially in the resting state (resting, but still conscious). When someone reminisces emotions resurface. It's actually one of the subconscious reasons we do it at all. And it's one of the reasons why some mental and emotional healing includes the advice to not recall certain very painful memories at all.

My experience tells me otherwise. For everything that I have experienced a long time ago when I was scared, in panic, stressful, tensed, surprised etc., if I reminisce about it now, I may feel sad, disturbed or maybe happy about the memory but never again stressful, in panic, afraid, surprised. These are not emotions that a person experiences when he reminisces about a long gone past. 

 

GRRM uses vocabulary to imply emotional and mental states. 

Except when he doesn't. 

 

 

The dream of burning people is a tie to his trauma of having witnessed people being burned by wildfire on Aerys' orders, yes. That did traumatize him and disgusted him. But the dream is not the memory. It's related, but it doesn't prove Jaime was emotional when he went to the throne room to kill Aerys, let alone when he killed him.

So the fact that the dream came just after the memory and was probably caused by that was just a coincidence? And you are saying yourself that he was traumatized and disgusted by Aerys' actions, and yet you want me to believe that when Jaime killed him, it was nothing to Jaime, just one more kill in his career? Sorry but I find that implausible and unrealistic. 

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Jaime has paid.  I mean, Bran lost the use of his legs which to him deprived him of climbing, which he loved, but also of his future.  Bran wanted to be a knight.  He wanted to be what Jaime already was and Jaime deprived him of it.

 

Jaime loses his sword hand.  They both are paralyzed in a way and have to find alternative meaning in their lives.  Its almost as though they both have to lose a huge part of what they thought they were to become who they are meant to be.  Neither of them are actually there yet, but the journey is amazing to read through.

I agree with what you say.  

 

There are some fascinating parallels.  

If we are going to call Jaime's arc "redemption",  I think he has to own that crime that opened the first book in order to achieve it.  

 

I hope he does (before GRRM kills him).  I find myself liking the Kingslayer in spite of myself.  

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Two additional General comments:

 

1) I have found the discussions of alternatives Jaime could have taken other breaking his vow and killing Aerys fascinating.  Some have been pretty good ideas.  At the end of the day though, any scenario where Aerys lives and you might as well pour the wildfire and light it yourself.  In a coup or revolution the King has to die or be exiled.  Considering that urgency of the situation, Aerys order to Jaime regarding Tywin, the wildfire, Jaime had to kill him.  IMO,

 

2) A vow made foolishly or sworn to an individual or institution that turns out to be TOTALLY corrupt and unworthy is a vow that an honorable man OUGHT to break.  Again, IMO.         

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

When he easily could've overpowered Aerys and left the killing to someone who wasn't sworn to protect him?

 

Probably because Aerys was a vile, insane rapist murderer who planned on committing genocide and Jaime was a hot headed young man who had just about enough of the mad king's bull.

[INCBlackbird]

Two additional General comments:

 

1) I have found the discussions of alternatives Jaime could have taken other breaking his vow and killing Aerys fascinating.  Some have been pretty good ideas.  At the end of the day though, any scenario where Aerys lives and you might as well pour the wildfire and light it yourself.  In a coup or revolution the King has to die or be exiled.  Considering that urgency of the situation, Aerys order to Jaime regarding Tywin, the wildfire, Jaime had to kill him.  IMO,

 

2) A vow made foolishly or sworn to an individual or institution that turns out to be TOTALLY corrupt and unworthy is a vow that an honorable man OUGHT to break.  Again, IMO.         

THIS!

[Winterstorm]

Imo there is no need for Jaime to justify his kingslaying. Aerys II was mad and pretty much begged for death with his wildfire plot. Jaime being young and hot headed pretty much sealed the deal. At first i thought knocking out and chaining Aerys would be enough but he had still loyalists, who would perform his orders, so he had to die and deserved it.

 

Now, if Jaime has to justify something, it's him not protecting Elia and the children, especially since Rhaegar asked him to protect his family. He sat on the IT and waited for the next guy to come in, but as shown in his dream, Elia's and the childrens deaths really haunt him. Imo leaving the throne room to protect Rheagar's family would have been the moral thing, but i mainly fault Rhaegar for leaving his family at Dragonstone.