How can Jaime justify his kingslaying?

[sweetsunray]

You are quoting a fever dream? That doesn't sound like good evidence, it may well be Jaime's feverish reenactment of the situation, not necessarily what really happened

 A fever dream? It's not a dream. It's his memory while he's talking to Brienne.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

That's just Jaime making it sound as if done on impulse and continuing the story Tywin's men told themselves. Of course he's not going to confess it was premeditated. The act was not done on impulse or even emotionally. We have Jaime's own inner memory for it.

 

 

Is reading really that hard?

 

Jaime is elsewhere in the Red Keep and a messenger from Aerys tells him to get Tywins head, the messenger tells him that Rossart is with him. Jaime igores this order to kill his father and instead goes to the throne room, runs into the Hand and kills him goes to Aerys who rants that he wants his father dead.

 

He had already given the order, it is pretty simple. Not sure why you are having trouble grasping it. I bet you are one of those people wondering why John Travolta's character is still alive in the third act of pulp Fiction after being killed earlier in the film.

[DireWolfSpirit]

It was premeditated, as mentioned earlier, the seed planted much earlier from witnessing Rickard and Brandons deaths. He began thinking of it after that,

[Jamie Lannister]

I mean, he was 17. He's impulsive and capricious in his thirties so I doubt he was cool-headed enough to rationalize the full political fallout of killing Aerys as a teenager. It's not until 20 years later that we see him think back on this, and he was almost literally caught red-handed anyway.

 

I think Jaime seeing red in this instance was pretty justifiable. The guy had ordered Jaime to murder his father and was going to blow the entire city up, that's a lot for one person to take in. For someone who lives and breathes swordplay I don't think "find a pile of rope and tie him to a chair" was pretty high on his list of solutions to flesh-shaped problems.

[sweetsunray]

 

Is reading really that hard?

 

Jaime is elsewhere in the Red Keep and a messenger from Aerys tells him to get Tywins head, the messenger tells him that Rossart is with him. Jaime igores this order to kill his father and instead goes to the throne room, runs into the Hand and kills him goes to Aerys who rants that he wants his father dead.

 

He had already given the order, it is pretty simple. Not sure why you are having trouble grasping it. I bet you are one of those people wondering why John Travolta's character is still alive in the third act of pulp Fiction after being killed earlier in the film.

 

Hello. If you can't discuss soemthing without getting personal and making assumptions about stuff that's not even aSoIaF related, I'll just block you. Don't bother replying to me anymore.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Hello. If you can't discuss soemthing without getting personal and making assumptions about stuff that's not even aSoIaF related, I'll just block you. Don't bother replying to me anymore.

 

Feel free to block me, but I will still reply to you.

[VenezuelanLord]

 A fever dream? It's not a dream. It's his memory while he's talking to Brienne.

While being feverish

[sweetsunray]

You are quoting a fever dream? That doesn't sound like good evidence, it may well be Jaime's feverish reenactment of the situation, not necessarily what really happened

 

It's the last 2,5 pages of Jaime's second chapter, right after they got the horses from the Inn of the Kneeling Man, where they don't sleep at the inn, but outside. And no, Jaime is not feverish. Brienne stalks off, right after discussing his "Kingslaying", and he closes his eyes, in order to go to sleep. He wants to dream of Cersei, and as many people do before falling asleep, they bring something to mind to think about, before they actually doze off. Instead of Cersei, he ends up thinking abotu Aerys. What follows are his waking thoughts and memories of it, before he falls asleep. He has reflective thoughts. The passages are written in past perfect, and completely coherent, including the conversations and reflective thoughts. Dreams aren't written in past perfect, unless you wake up and remember the dream.

 

Towards the end though, he does fall asleep and dreams, and this is the dream -

 

In his dreams the dead came burning, gowned in swirling green flames. Jaime danced around them with a golden sword, but for every one he struck down two more arose to take his place. 

 

  Notice that the past perfect is not used here at all.

 

ETA: I don't have any issue with the calculated pre-meditation of Jaime in that scene at all. He had the best reasons for it - ending a mad king's reign who kept ordering people to burn the city. I find that "doing it on impulse to save his father" would actually detract from his decision. I recognize that it's hard to swallow for people though, and they'd rather cover it with a "fit of emotion" blanket. But the cold bloodedness of it, actually shows he did it out of conviction imo.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

While being feverish

 

I dont think it matters. Neither memory contradicts each other, Chapter 11 gives us some information and chapter 37 gives even more details.

 

The order to kill Tywin comes before he kills the Hand.

[Lady Sharya]

Even in-world Jaime is misunderstood ;) He's an action man, yes. But taking action =/= impulsiveness. That's the mistake people make imo. Confrontational action personalities are not necessarily impulsive. They may seem that way, but they usually have a pro-active mind, and can act very calculating. They will act resolute and without delay. Since less pro-active minds haven't thought it out yet, they end up judging it as impulsive. But both scenes - Aerys' execution and Bran's shoving out of the window - reveal unemotional pre-meditation.

I don't think it's Jaime's behavior that's impulsive but his thinking. He does think before he acts, but has mindsets he never really thought through in the first place, which cause him to not regard future consequences. He has a mindset that killing is a necessary thing so when confronted with those situations his impulsive mindset dictates his thinking...which he clearly did when killing Aerys and pushing Bran out of the window. I agree they were NOT impulsive acts.

Plus he first caught the falling Bran, stood him on the windowsill (=saved him). Then Cersei shrieks "what are you doing" or WTTE, only then Jaime - quite callously - shoves Bran out the windoo. "The things I do for love". Yes, wrong and a very bad deed. But Jaime's first instinct was to save the falling boy, Cersei's to let him fall and die. Jaime was still Cersei's lapdog at this time. He could've excercised his own free will but chose to do what Cersei wanted. (Later on Cersei, of course, blames it all on Jaime.)
 
Jaime is just one of the many interesting "grey" characters in ASOIAF. I'm really looking forward to reading what happens to him in TWOW.

Cersie isn't responsible for Bran. She tells him later in KL that he shouldn't have done it. He chose his impulsive mindset that killing is necessary to protect he and Cersei from any retributions. It's this mindset he begins to question after loosing his hand.

[talvikorppi]

 

Yes.

 

Thank you, sweetsunray, for reminding me (in a post above, with quotes from the book) that Jaime had, indeed, changed out of his white KG gear into his gold (=Lannister) gear. Jaime himself makes a point of it, to himself at least (=trying to justify the deed to himself). That he didn't kill the king in his whites, he killed the king in his Lannister gold.

 

So the deed was at least to some degree premedidated. Maybe Jaime didn't actually envison killing the king but with the rebel army (including his father's army) inside the city walls... Better to hedge his bets, aye?

 

And we have to remember that Jaime loathed Aerys II. He'd witnessed first hand what he (Aerys) did. He (Jaime) was very uneasy about serving in the KG (e.g. guarding the door while Aerys apparently abused and molested his wife, being so uneasy about it that he queried his commanding officer about it.)

 

So no, it's not beyound the realms of possibility that Jaime actually planned to kill Aerys (and try to get away with it). I'm still tending to think that he didn't plan to do it but was prepared to do it, in case... And the "in case..." did arise, the very real threat of bathing the whole of KL in fire and... Well, he just acted then. Impulsively.

 

And couldn't get away with it, his father's knights caught him red-handed and blame was in their eyes and then in Ned Stark's eyes, and I guess Jaime just felt, fuck it, nobody's going to believe me anyway. The less said, the better.

[sweetsunray]

 

Thank you, sweetsunray, for reminding me (in a post above, with quotes from the book) that Jaime had, indeed, changed out of his white KG gear into his gold (=Lannister) gear. Jaime himself makes a point of it, to himself at least (=trying to justify the deed to himself). That he didn't kill the king in his whites, he killed the king in his Lannister gold.

 

So the deed was at least to some degree premedidated. Maybe Jaime didn't actually envison killing the king but with the rebel army (including his father's army) inside the city walls... Better to hedge his bets, aye?

 

And we have to remember that Jaime loathed Aerys II. He'd witnessed first hand what he (Aerys) did. He (Jaime) was very uneasy about serving in the KG (e.g. guarding the door while Aerys apparently abused and molested his wife, being so uneasy about it that he queried his commanding officer about it.)

 

So no, it's not beyound the realms of possibility that Jaime actually planned to kill Aerys (and try to get away with it). I'm still tending to think that he didn't plan to do it but was prepared to do it, in case... And the "in case..." did arise, the very real threat of bathing the whole of KL in fire and... Well, he just acted then. Impulsively.

 

And couldn't get away with it, his father's knights caught him red-handed and blame was in their eyes and then in Ned Stark's eyes, and I guess Jaime just felt, fuck it, nobody's going to believe me anyway. The less said, the better.

 

Rossart came to him with the order. He killed him. Then in his golden armor, but the white cloak, he went to the throne room, and before he slipped in, he was watching Aerys picking at his scabs, thinking him a fool. The blood of Rossart is still on his sword. Aerys notices the blood on the sword, wants to know whether it's Tywins' and demands to know whose blood it is. Just the one worded answer "Rossart" (and it's just "Rossart," answered Jaime. Not shouted, not exclaimed, no emotional verb is used at all), reveals pure calmth of Jaime. And both the answer, and probably the factual unemotional tone it was said, was what made Aerys suddenly realize Jaime was intent on murdering him. Aerys' words wouldn't have provoked Jaime, since he already knew what Aerys' wanted from Rossart whom he had already killed. The way he enters is described as "Slipping in". If he was there just to check Aerys' out he wouldn't be "slipping in". "Slipping in" is what assassins do, thieves, burglars, etc. because they do not want to cause a scene, ruckus. It's not "barging in" (emotional) or "walking in" (as if to answer his KG duty). No it's "slipping in". GRRM is very deliberate in his vocabulary choice to denote intent and atmosphere of a scene.

[Lady Sharya]

Thank you, sweetsunray, for reminding me (in a post above, with quotes from the book) that Jaime had, indeed, changed out of his white KG gear into his gold (=Lannister) gear. Jaime himself makes a point of it, to himself at least (=trying to justify the deed to himself). That he didn't kill the king in his whites, he killed the king in his Lannister gold.
 
So the deed was at least to some degree premedidated. Maybe Jaime didn't actually envison killing the king but with the rebel army (including his father's army) inside the city walls... Better to hedge his bets, aye?
 
And we have to remember that Jaime loathed Aerys II. He'd witnessed first hand what he (Aerys) did. He (Jaime) was very uneasy about serving in the KG (e.g. guarding the door while Aerys apparently abused and molested his wife, being so uneasy about it that he queried his commanding officer about it.)
 
So no, it's not beyound the realms of possibility that Jaime actually planned to kill Aerys (and try to get away with it). I'm still tending to think that he didn't plan to do it but was prepared to do it, in case... And the "in case..." did arise, the very real threat of bathing the whole of KL in fire and... Well, he just acted then. Impulsively.
 
And couldn't get away with it, his father's knights caught him red-handed and blame was in their eyes and then in Ned Stark's eyes, and I guess Jaime just felt, fuck it, nobody's going to believe me anyway. The less said, the better.

He just let his pride get in the way of not explaining himself.

A Lannister always pays his debts but never with his pride.

[Rickyhunt]

Jamie did break his vows as a member of the Kingsguard when he killed Aerys that is true. However he also was following another part of the vows when he became a knight to protect the innocent. The mad king was about to give the order to burn kings landing which would have led to the deaths of probably thousands of innocent people among them women and children. Jamie knew he couldn't let this happen and killed Aerys forever branding himself as the kingslayer he knows he did the right thing in killing Aerys. Let it also be known that Aerys was a mad king and was a terrible human being and deserved a cruel death. I don't like Jamie at all but he did the right thing in killing Aerys and it is justifiable.

[JaegrM]

I think Jaime's impulsiveness is greatly exaggerated in universe and out.
Jaime's POV reveals he's a very quick thinker, he just never really bothers to explain himself to anyone.

I think Jaime had more or less hated Aerys since he understood he wasn't chosen for the KG because of his skill. chivalry or anything about himself, but rather to cheat Tywin of an heir, but he still performed dutifully in his role as the king's protector, through the burnings, rape, and atrocities.
Witnessing all of these things did nothing to endear Aerys to Jaime, but it wasn't until he recieved the order to kill his father and learned of King's Landings imminent destruction that he chose to act against Aery's.
I think at that moment Jaime chose a plan of action, and commited to it. It wasn't an impulsive act, he was very deliberate. Even days after he's hunting down the remaining people who could follow through with Aerys plans, completely of his own accord.

Also, Cersei is VERY responsible for Bran, She doesn't complain about Jaime's actions until after Bran awakes when she very clearly was unhappy that Jaime stopped him from falling on his own. 
She's just trying to act like it's completely Jaime's fault while admitting no blame herself.
Not saying Jaime is blameless but he clearly does it for her and she seems very supportive of it until she's worried Bran will talk.

[JaegrM]

I don't believe it was COMPLETELY pride that kept Jaime from explaining the circumstances. although it undeniably played a role.

Everytime Jaime has so far been shown to question his oaths based on common decency he's been told he's wrong. It's an unwinnable uphill battle and that has to be exhausting.
Moreover. Jaime is a knight and despite all of his despicable/questionable acts... he's shown to think about his oaths quite a bit. He's oathbound to keep his king's secrets. 
Will breaking that oath to justify breaking a different oath make him more honorable in Ned's eyes?

It's an exhausting uphill battle that he'll likely lose, and what good would it do him anyway?

[Lady Sharya]

Also, Cersei is VERY responsible for Bran, She doesn't complain about Jaime's actions until after Bran awakes when she very clearly was unhappy that Jaime stopped him from falling on his own. 
She's just trying to act like it's completely Jaime's fault while admitting no blame herself.
Not saying Jaime is blameless but he clearly does it for her and she seems very supportive of it until she's worried Bran will talk.

We can blame Cersei for many many bad things, but no, she did not order, demand, ask, or encourage him to do what he did. He did that on his own. The only blame she has in that deed is being there in the first place.;)

[talvikorppi]

....

Cersie isn't responsible for Bran. She tells him later in KL that he shouldn't have done it. He chose his impulsive mindset that killing is necessary to protect he and Cersei from any retributions. It's this mindset he begins to question after loosing his hand.

 

Cersei tells Jaime shoving Bran out the window was wrong only after she realises the boy probably isn't going to die, even in Winterfell. She's afraid what the boy might say if he wakes up. She wanted the boy shoved out the window while Jaime's instinct was to save the boy from falling. Jaime's crime was to do Cersei's bidding after saving the boy = shoving him out. A terrible and callous act. Cersei tells Jaime he shouldn't have done it only with hindsight, she wants to whitewash herself.

 

But yes, Cersei isn't responsible for Bran. Jaime is. He saved the boy and then had a choice, and he chose to go along with his sister/lover's wish. That episode, in a way, served to demonstrate that Jaime was nothing but a kid himself at the time, despite being a thirty-something. He only began to grow up and become a responsible adult after his imprisonment and especially his sojourn with Brienne, losing his sword hand and being rejected by Cersei.

[Ser Patroclo]

When he easily could've overpowered Aerys and left the killing to someone who wasn't sworn to protect him?

 

Because that single act is for Jamie the most honourable thing he has ever done in his life, 

the true accomplishment of his teenager delusion on words like 'oaths, honour, nobility'. 

[JaegrM]

 

Cersei tells Jaime shoving Bran out the window was wrong only after she realises the boy probably isn't going to die, even in Winterfell. She's afraid what the boy might say if he wakes up. She wanted the boy shoved out the window while Jaime's instinct was to save the boy from falling. Jaime's crime was to do Cersei's bidding after saving the boy = shoving him out. A terrible and callous act. Cersei tells Jaime he shouldn't have done it only with hindsight, she wants to whitewash herself.

 

But yes, Cersei isn't responsible for Bran. Jaime is. He saved the boy and then had a choice, and he chose to go along with his sister/lover's wish. That episode, in a way, served to demonstrate that Jaime was nothing but a kid himself at the time, despite being a thirty-something. He only began to grow up and become a responsible adult after his imprisonment and especially his sojourn with Brienne, losing his sword hand and being rejected by Cersei.

I'm not implying Jaime is blameless, he chose to act as he did, but I also refuse to see Cersei as having no responsibility for his actions. She's well aware of her influence over Jaime.
They both had roles to play in Bran's fall, the only difference is Jaime accepts his role in it.