Brad Stark

Daenerys is the daughter of Rhaegar and Ashara Dayne

61 posts in this topic

"She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible. The Targaryen fleet was smashed while it lay at anchor, and huge stone blocks were ripped from the parapets and sent hurtling into the wild waters of the narrow sea. Her mother had died birthing her, and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her."

 

We know Dany looks like Naerys, who had a daughter named "Daenerys".  We know that Daenerys married Maron Martell, and had several children, the oldest of which inherited house Martell.  We don't know who the youngest married, but we know house Dayne is in service to house Martell, and major houses often marry their vassals.

 

We know Barristan comments on how much Danny looks like Ashara.

 

We know Ashara was a servant of Elia Martell, so Rhaegar would have had the opportunity to be alone with Ashara if he had wanted.

 

We know Rhaella went through many pregnancies, stillbirths and miscarriages.

 

We know Ashara was pregnant.

 

We know Aerys was having sexual problems toward the end of his life.

 

We know Daenerys remembers a lemon tree, which is unlikely to grow in Bravos. meaning she was probably lied to about her earliest years.

 

So I suspect Rhaegar got Ashara pregnant towards the end of his life, she gives birth to a daughter named after her great-grandmother.  We don't have enough information for how the rest falls into place.  But I suspect Ashara never died after finding out Arthur Dayne died (if he ever did) and a lot of lies were told.  Someone passed off Daenerys as the daughter of Elia, and that someone never got a chance to tell Daenerys the truth.  I believe this will be revealed once we find out what really happened at the tower of joy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lol, what? You've been drinking whatever Preston Jacobs drinks (just don't steal art like he does).

 

So, your theory is that Ashara gave birth to Dany, smuggled to Dragonstone in time to be smuggled from there to the Free Cities with Viserys who definitely remembers her being borne and killing their mother in the process. And if Viserys knew anything about Dorne he wouldn't have shut up about it.

 

Your, we don't know how the rest falls into place is the arrow through the heart of your otherwise well put together post, but don't let me stop you from having fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not saying it's impossible, but this would be after Rhaegar kidnapped and impregnated Lyanna with Jon? What a horndog!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not saying it's impossible, but this would be after Rhaegar kidnapped and impregnated Lyanna with Jon? What a horndog!

Oh god, the dragon has three heads, he's a misogynist now as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Mater semper certa est, pater numquam". Expecially when someone gave birth in public, like in Daenerys's mother case.

  1. How exactly did Ashara Dayne or her daughter got to Dragonstone?
  2. Who would convence Viserys that she was his sister and not his nephew, and why?
  3. In alternative, why was Viserys disguising her as a sister, if he knew she was not?
  4. Why nobody of the person knowing ever told it? "The last surviving Targ is a bastard" would have been something any pretender to Westeros could spin, and extablishing the fact would have helped Robert too. There is at least an entier ship crew that wat the very list knows that a baby or a very pregnant woman was secretly smuggled to Dragonstone at the very end of the war

Very revolutionary claims need very throughout argumentation and explainations.
Please, go on on that.
Or trolling us, if that's the point, we have a lot to wait to the next book, and it is fun!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Mater semper certa est, pater numquam". Expecially when someone gave birth in public, like in Daenerys's mother case.

  1. How exactly did Ashara Dayne or her daughter got to Dragonstone?
  2. Who would convence Viserys that she was his sister and not his nephew, and why?
  3. In alternative, why was Viserys disguising her as a sister, if he knew she was not?
  4. Why nobody of the person knowing ever told it? "The last surviving Targ is a bastard" would have been something any pretender to Westeros could spin, and extablishing the fact would have helped Robert too. There is at least an entier ship crew that wat the very list knows that a baby or a very pregnant woman was secretly smuggled to Dragonstone at the very end of the war

Very revolutionary claims need very throughout argumentation and explainations.
Please, go on on that.
Or trolling us, if that's the point, we have a lot to wait to the next book, and it is fun!

Well, I don't buy that Dany was Ashara's, but I give some credence to the theory that she is Jon's twin, so I'll answer your questions from that angle:

First, Rhaella didn't give birth "in public". She was in the castle attended to by loyal followers like Darry. So if that child was stillborn or died right after birth (and Rhaella has a history of this), then no one, not even Vis, would be the wiser that the baby had died.

1) So Dany was born at the tower and then taken to Starfall, where she stayed for some time or perhaps moved to Sunspear, although this is less likely considering the Martells wouldn't want anything to do with her. When word reached the Dayne's that the original Dany had died, they brought Lyanna's baby in as the changling.

2 &3) Viserys is completely unaware of this. He is only eight and wouldn't know one baby from the next, even one that is supposed to be a few months younger or older than she is supposed to be.

4) Again, no one else knows outside of Darry and a few servants on Dragonstone. There doesn't need to be an entire ship bringing the baby to DS, just a small cutter

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Well, I don't buy that Dany was Ashara's, but I give some credence to the theory that she is Jon's twin, so I'll answer your questions from that angle:

First, Rhaella didn't give birth "in public". She was in the castle attended to by loyal followers like Darry. So if that child was stillborn or died right after birth (and Rhaella has a history of this), then no one, not even Vis, would be the wiser that the baby had died.

1) So Dany was born at the tower and then taken to Starfall, where she stayed for some time or perhaps moved to Sunspear, although this is less likely considering the Martells wouldn't want anything to do with her. When word reached the Dayne's that the original Dany had died, they brought Lyanna's baby in as the changling.

2 &3) Viserys is completely unaware of this. He is only eight and wouldn't know one baby from the next, even one that is supposed to be a few months younger or older than she is supposed to be.

4) Again, no one else knows outside of Darry and a few servants on Dragonstone. There doesn't need to be an entire ship bringing the baby to DS, just a small cutter

 

No, you are not convincing me.
Rhaella didn't give birth in a special condition, she did in the "normal" situation, without any particular privacy. A full staff was there to aid the birth, and the usual witnesses too.
A royal birth is not a menial incident. She wasn't an isolated runaway.
Adding on: you are saying that someone could smuggle a living kid of exactly a day old coming from the Tower of the Joy - or everybody there would have noticed the baby not being the right one.
You are not talking of a fast ship outsmarting both the Baratheon and the Redwyne fleets, none of which noticed the move. You are talking of a dragonborne baby transport, without anybody in the island and the castle noticing it, or of phisical impossibilities.

That's clearly not a strong theory in my book.
Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ashara got pregnant at Harrenhal i think and that makes her baby older than Danny

I also believe that Aerys raped her to get back at Arthur for his involvement with Rhaegar and the tournament making him the father of Ashara's baby but that's another story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Well, I don't buy that Dany was Ashara's, but I give some credence to the theory that she is Jon's twin, so I'll answer your questions from that angle:

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

Dany's birth is fairly clearly pinned to almost exactly 9 months after Aerys visited Rhaella's bed after burning Lord Chelsted (his successor as Hand only served for a fortnight according to Jaime, so that was a fortnight before the Sack of KL) before sending her and Viserys off to Dragonstone.
Ashara supposedly committed suicide not long after Jon's birth, around when Ned was at Starfall. Its a bit tricky for her to give birth 7-8 months after she is supposedly dead.
Not that I entirely believe the suicide story mind you.

But I can't see her moving from Rhaegar's bed in KL/on campaign, down to Starfall to meet Ned after the ToJ, then faking a suicide in the south so she can head to Dragonstone to bear the baby Rhaegar impregnated her with in the last weeks of his life, and have that child raised as Aerys and Rhaella's daughter and then... what?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, you are not convincing me.Rhaella didn't give birth in a special condition, she did in the "normal" situation, without any particular privacy. A full staff was there to aid the birth, and the usual witnesses too.
A royal birth is not a menial incident. She wasn't an isolated runaway.
Adding on: you are saying that someone could smuggle a living kid of exactly a day old coming from the Tower of the Joy - or everybody there would have noticed the baby not being the right one.
You are not talking of a fast ship outsmarting both the Baratheon and the Redwyne fleets, none of which noticed the move. You are talking of a dragonborne baby transport, without anybody in the island and the castle noticing it, or of phisical impossibilities.

That's clearly not a strong theory in my book.
Cheers.

Well, I'm not entirely convinced of it myself. It's just that this is what you would have to believe in order to square the circle.

We don't have any information as to who was in the castle when R gave birth, other than loyal retainers like Jon Darry. She most certainly did not give birth in the town square in front of all the citizenry. So given that R had a history of miscarriages and stillbirths, you would have to believe that it happened again and, given the dicey political/military situation at the time, the death of the baby was hushed up. Even if there was a full staff at the castle, it would be very easy to restrict access to the baby to R's most loyal retainers.

Then, the baby that we know as Dany was taken from the ToJ, along with her twin brother Jon, first to Starfall and from there either by ship directly to DS or through Sunspear. Jon made it all the way back to Winterfell before anyone noticed him, so it doesn't seem unreasonable that either Ned made a quick stop at DS to drop off the baby girl or it was brokered by the Martell's or handled by the Dayne's directly. Sure, this baby is some months younger than she is supposed to be, but again with restricted access while on DS and then the flight to Braavos no one, not even Viserys -- who is only, what, eight at the time? -- would know the difference by age three or so.

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

Dany's birth is fairly clearly pinned to almost exactly 9 months after Aerys visited Rhaella's bed after burning Lord Chelsted (his successor as Hand only served for a fortnight according to Jaime, so that was a fortnight before the Sack of KL) before sending her and Viserys off to Dragonstone.
Ashara supposedly committed suicide not long after Jon's birth, around when Ned was at Starfall. Its a bit tricky for her to give birth 7-8 months after she is supposedly dead.
Not that I entirely believe the suicide story mind you.

But I can't see her moving from Rhaegar's bed in KL/on campaign, down to Starfall to meet Ned after the ToJ, then faking a suicide in the south so she can head to Dragonstone to bear the baby Rhaegar impregnated her with in the last weeks of his life, and have that child raised as Aerys and Rhaella's daughter and then... what?

The original Dany was born on DS nine months after the sack, but that baby died. The Dany we see today is not the original Dany -- she is a changeling and is eight to nine months younger.

Again, I don't fully buy into this either. I'm just pointing out how it could have been done and still square up with what we know of the timeline and the SSMs.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Parentage theories or Possibilities

Daenerys:

Aerys + Rhaella = Daenerys

Aerys + Ashara = Daenerys

Rhaegar + Rhaella = Daenerys

Rhaegar + Lyanna = Daenerys

Rhaegar + Ashara = Daenerys

Allyria Dayne:

Brandon + Ashara = Allyria

Eddard + Ashara = Allyria

Jon Snow:

Rhaegar + Lyanna = JonSno

Arthur + Lyanna = JonSno

Brandon + Ashara = JonSno

Eddard + Ashara = JonSno

Eddard + Wylla = JonSno

Eddard + Fisher mans daughter = JonSno

 

Who is right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the theory that Daeny is half Dayne and half Targ has been something I've strongly believed for a while now.

Either she is Rheagar and Ashara's child (there are a handful of ways this could work)

or she is Arthur and Rhaella's daughter (which makes a lot more sense as far as the Stormborn backstory)

Either way, Martin has made a lot of hints to there being a good deal more intrigue with her childhood than she remembers and dropped a nice handful of hints about her resemblance to members of the Dayne family

I suspect that Aegon, fake or no, might be the stories full-blooded Targ/Blackfire character... either that or Darkstar is the true Viserys... or some other nonesense

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are two sources for thinking Ashara had a pregnancy. The fist is Jon; people (Cersei, Cat et al) link the appearance of Jon with Ned being at Starfall and Ashara killing herself for grief. If rejecting the deliberate red herring of N+A=J then this does not support her being pregnant at around that time.

The second source is Barristan, he either knows or thinks he knows she was pregnant and delivered a stillborn girl (allowing for the possibility that he overheard something, misunderstood it and holds a false belief). Barristan was a injured at the Trident, and a captive/member of Robert's court thereafter. Ashara was at Starfall towards of the war before she presumably died. There is no widespread gossip about the possible stillbirth so Barristan would not have had the opportunity to learn of it if it had happened after the Trident. For it to be reasonable that Barristan has this knowledge then Ashara's possible pregnancy is time-limited to before he left for the Trident.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder what this theory even means.

If dany was a month-old baby at Starfall, she wouldn't remember anything about a lemon tree either. We still have one handy stillbirth (in this case Rhaella, allowing Ashara to hide her own baby). And Viserys was in principle a perfectly fine Targaryen heir already.

 

So what's the point of this switch?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you believe Quaithe is Ashara Dayne, then it would make sense that she wants to look over, guide and protect her estranged daughter Dany.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't see this myself. Is just to implausible.

Edited by MGraham
Trolling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/13/2016 at 4:25 PM, HalfJobRob said:

If you believe Quaithe is Ashara Dayne, then it would make sense that she wants to look over, guide and protect her estranged daughter Dany.

i do believe quaithe is ashara!

but i still think R+L=J.  why else would the KG be guarding a tower that ned found lyanna in while she was dying in childbirth?  though yes, i suppose aerys could also have been the father.  which is gross and i don't want that image in my head so i am choosing to reject it.

rhaegar was a kind musician and scholar who loved reading prophecy and hated war.  he read enough to know that the prophecy required him and lyanna to have a baby, TPTWP (and although i do love the idea of dany being jon's twin, i just don't see the timing/logistics working out).  maybe there are 2 versions of azor ahai/TPTWP.  in any case, rhaegar believed this prophecy so much that he, a non-violent singing poet, was willing to plunge his land into civil war for it.  that's the strongest case for R+L=J, imo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think George R. R. Martin has already slyly hinted at Daenerys being of Dayne blood since the very beginning. It's also worth noting that the show had her fighting one of the two battles during he episode "Battle of the Bastards."

So I pose this, what if "Daenerys" is a play on words by GRRM.  His way of secretly winking to the audience once they find out the truth of her lineage.  What if his hidden hint was revealed via Daenerys' name, meaning "Dawn Heiress."

That would set the stage for "The Princess That Was Promised" to receive the Valyrian sword "Dawn", which we might also refer to as "Lightbringer." In this case "Lightbringer" being a quite direct reference to dawn, or the time in which it becomes light again

Edited by SX.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now