Brad Stark

Daenerys is the daughter of Rhaegar and Ashara Dayne

61 posts in this topic

That's awesome! There's a theory that Baelish started the rumor of the abduction to stop Cats wedding. We know he has a strong history of using words to manipulate events.  The best part is- I just realized that Ned and the fishermans daughter capsized near the Fingers! If this is the case- Baelish could have started the rumor of Lyanna being in Dorne to kill two birds with one stone- 1- kill Cats betrothed and 2- send Ned away to his lover so that he stays safe and (he had hoped) wouldn't marry Cat.  Bc superstitious Baelish knows there must always be a stark in Winterfell!  I only just finished the books but I'm obsessed (especially with Baelish).  This is amazing! 

Neds memory was so obscure that his friends were wraiths and he then passed out for a few days.  It's hard to trust that! There's no one reporting seeing Ned traveling quite a distance with baby, but they were already in Winterfell when Cat came back with Rob. 

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On July 17, 2016 at 8:33 AM, purple-eyes said:

GRRM loves bastards. 

now all three dragon riders are bastards. 

dany is a martell bastard by targ. 

tyrion is a targ bastard by lannister. 

jon is a targ bastard by stark. 

Tyrion is a targ bastard

dani is Dayne targ bastard

jon is a stark- wildling bastard

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Yes it's propaganda from the master of propoganda himself, Baelish! It got Brandon Stark out of his way!  It sent Ned to go visit his lover in Dorne,who I'm sure Baelish didn't expect him to then marry Cat.  When Ned was on his way home to winterfell he had to go through the Fingers in search of a captain, who later died.,. Point is who's most likely to gain valuable information from that location? And manipulate it to his advantage? Neds memory at the tower was so fuzzy he passed out for days.

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I don't believe this theory because it's basically too much. Jon has a mysterious parentage. And now Dany (and Tyrion) as well? Where does it end?

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I'm still not clear on how a 9 year old boy manages to travel around the place with an infant after leaving Dragonstone or why Dany says that the servants stole all their money but Viserys manages to hang onto his money including his mother's crown.

Edited by LynnS

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On 16.9.2016 at 7:24 PM, LynnS said:

I'm still not clear on how a 9 year old boy manages to travel around the place with an infant after leaving Dragonstone or why Dany says that the servants stole all their money but Viserys manages to hang onto his money including his mother's crown.

There was Ser Willem Darry. At least in the beginning.

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On 28/06/2016 at 1:25 AM, SX. said:

So I pose this, what if "Daenerys" is a play on words by GRRM.  His way of secretly winking to the audience once they find out the truth of her lineage.  What if his hidden hint was revealed via Daenerys' name, meaning "Dawn Heiress."

If you like the idea of Daenerys as a play on words hinting at Ser Arthur Dayne being her dad, why look further than the fact that Daenerys is an anagram of "ser Dayne"?

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On August 30, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Brad Stark said:

So I suspect Rhaegar got Ashara pregnant towards the end of his life, she gives birth to a daughter named after her great-grandmother.  We don't have enough information for how the rest falls into place.  But I suspect Ashara never died after finding out Arthur Dayne died (if he ever did) and a lot of lies were told.  Someone passed off Daenerys as the daughter of Elia, and that someone never got a chance to tell Daenerys the truth.  I believe this will be revealed once we find out what really happened at the tower of joy.

 

You will find much and more to like in this theory...

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/572/dany

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Well, if Dany is indeed Ashara's child (who is mentioned in this story from the very beginning and clearly has some importance about her and her family), then the only father candidate is Ned Stark.

Everybody else's actions will not make sense given everything we know. Why would Ser Arthur Dayne, most honorable knight in the realm and Rhaegar's closest friend, defend Tower of Joy if Rhaegar dishonored his sister and fathered a bastard? Is he a prophecy lunatic like Rhaegar or some kind of cuckold who will let his friend bang his sister for some bullshit like that? Excuse me but Arthur never gave me such an impression (don't tell me Ashara and Rhaegar married, because that will be too much).

And I don't see Lyanna agreeing to elope with Rhaegar if that was true. I mean, he already was married and had two kids with Elia, but then there is Ashara too? And would Ned hold Rhaegar in high esteem (obviously when he learned truth about Lyanna's "abduction") if he banged someone he clearly was in love with and she loved him back?

Aerys as the father of Ashara's baby is even more ridiculous. There is just no textual evidence that Aerys lusted after her, otherwise, again, Ser Arthur Dayne or someone in the court would have learned about it.

We only can go by textual evidence to make the conclusion: "Stark dishonored her at Harrenhal" and that "Ned Stark broke Ashara's heart and she committed suicide". I mean, it is clear that Ned and Ashara fell in love in Harrenhal and possibly after they had sex, Ned promised he will marry her whenever his time at the Eyrie was done. Note  "promiseS" whenever Ned is in the dungeon and has flashbacks. I bet that besides his promise to Lyanna he also remembers promise he gave to Ashara at Harrenhal to be hers. He could not keep his promise because after deaths of Rickard and Brandon he became Lord of Winterfell and needed to fulfill marriage obligations to House Tully

That is why he broke Ashara's heart at Starfall when he brought Dawn and news of his marriage to Catelyn and he forbade everyone at Winterfell to speak her name because it hurt him too much.

And what I believe happened at Starfall was the "goodbye sex" between Ned and Ashara where Dany was conceived. People might argue Ned would never do that, but I disagree: the beauty of this series is that every character is human, so it would be an amazing turn if honorable, cold and just Ned Stark had a moment of weakness (in his case, it is his love for Ashara) due to the fact he would never see or be together with his lover EVER. That is tough, guys. That is not that hard to believe. "The things we do for love", as Jaime Lannister famously says.

And if Dany is the product of Ned and Ashara's romance, then there is an extra layer for BASTARDY issue. Dany, in addition to Jon, will be another example of how it should not matter what your bloodline is, it is your actions and merit. They will be truly ying and yang of this story. Targaryen trueborn raised as Stark bastard (Jon) and Stark bastard raised as Targaryen trueborn (Dany).

And there is a reason why we know so little about House Dayne. Once George reveals more, I bet it will have to do with dragonriders from Great Empire of the Dawn and fire magic. Then people saying "Dany HAS to be Targaryen, otherwise, how does she control dragons or is untouched by fire". That will be her Dayne side of the ancestry as well as Mirri Maaz Duur's blood sacrifice, I bet.

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On 24.1.2017 at 0:18 AM, Scorpion92 said:

Well, if Dany is indeed Ashara's child (who is mentioned in this story from the very beginning and clearly has some importance about her and her family), then the only father candidate is Ned Stark.

[snip}

But why would Rhaella and Viserys take in Dany and raise her as Rhaella's daughter if she was not even related to the Targaryen family?

 

 

 

 

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On 1/26/2017 at 1:10 AM, Amris said:

But why would Rhaella and Viserys take in Dany and raise her as Rhaella's daughter if she was not even related to the Targaryen family?

 

Who said Daenerys that was born (or died) on Dragonstone is the one we have in the story? I believe she was bought off as a child slave in Lys by Illyrio Mopatis to be used in his scheming with Viserys.

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2 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Who said Daenerys that was born (or died) on Dragonstone is the one we have in the story? I believe she was bought off as a child slave in Lys by Illyrio Mopatis to be used in his scheming with Viserys.

Fair enough. I like to speculate about alternative backgrounds for Dany myself.

That would have a certain coolness to it. I don't personally think that's likely - but not because I have a basic issue with it. Only because of lack of evidence in the text.

But yeah - there are things in Dany's backstory that sound fishy. Nothing that really proves the official party line about her parents is a fabrication though. So all in all I think the likelihood that she is who she thinks she is is bigger than that she is someone else. Nevertheless I keep an open mind and won't complain at all if you are proven right.

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On 26/04/2016 at 5:31 AM, Orbulas B. Harding said:

the theory that Daeny is half Dayne and half Targ has been something I've strongly believed for a while now.

Either she is Rheagar and Ashara's child (there are a handful of ways this could work)

or she is Arthur and Rhaella's daughter (which makes a lot more sense as far as the Stormborn backstory)

Either way, Martin has made a lot of hints to there being a good deal more intrigue with her childhood than she remembers and dropped a nice handful of hints about her resemblance to members of the Dayne family

I suspect that Aegon, fake or no, might be the stories full-blooded Targ/Blackfire character... either that or Darkstar is the true Viserys... or some other nonesense

Yes, especially Barristan (who, as a former hardcore admirer, should know) compares Dany to Ashara multiple times, and once even flat-out says that she looks enough like her that she could "be her daughter". I mean, WOW, that's practically spoon-feeding it to us, isn't it?

Barristan, as a member of the Kingsguard, would also have been very familiar with Rhaella - but he never once thinks that Dany resembles her mother. Not once. He also doesn't think about how she looks like her father Aerys, or her brother Rhaegar. All comparisons are to Ashara. 

Of course, it's possible that Ser Arthur looked a lot like his sister (though we haven't heard anyone mention him being especially beautiful or having striking purple eyes) - so theoretically Dany could be his daughter instead of Ashara's. Either way, it seems quite likely that she is at least half Dayne. 

Similarly, Aegon seems to look enough like Rhaegar to convince one of his closest friends, JonCon, and Tyrion made the connection as well, though he wouldn't necessarily know/remember exactly what Rhaegar looked like, having been a child during Robert's Rebellion. Aegon is confirmed to have Rhaegar's indigo eyes, just like Dany has Ashara's purple eyes, and he is described as comely and every young maiden's dream- again bringing Rhaegar to mind.

Aegon does not appear to bear any resemblance to a Martell, however, despite his full sister Rhaenys having looked (and smelled, according to Aerys) Dornish. Elia was also kind and gentle, and while Aegon overall seems like a good kid, he is somewhat rash, impatient, willful and has a bit of a temper (i.e. knocking over the cyvasse board when he loses and making Tyrion pick up the pieces - very reminiscent of Joffrey spilling the wine and making Tyrion get more). Those are not personality traits he would have gotten from Elia or Rhaegar. They would, however, fit with the "wolf blood" he could have gotten from Lyanna (have we considered the possibility that Aegon is a twin to one of the other two, or the one and only baby born at the TOJ?), or perhaps from Ashara, though we know virtually nothing of her personality.  

Lastly, we should consider Varys and Illyrio's actions as well. It is quite likely, IMO, that these two know more about who these babies really are than almost any other character (with the possible exceptions of Howland Reed and Ashara herself if she is alive). Interestingly, V&I treated Dany and Viserys as disposable: they provided them with no real protection, no money, no education, then sent them off with the savage Dothraki, knowing that survival was unlikely. Even if Viserys somehow managed to convince Khal Drogo to invade Westeros (something that had never been done), he couldn't have hoped to win back the seven kingdoms with a horde of barbarians. Even Dany and Jorah reflect on how Viserys couldn't lead an army even if Drogo gave him one. Someone as astute as Varys had to have known this, meaning the marriage and proposed invasion were always intended as nothing more than a distraction. 

In the meantime, they were raising Aegon in a carefully hidden location, with a small group of loyal followers teaching him everything he would need to rule Westeros. They set money aside for an army (money they denied Viserys when he asked), and didn't abandon their plan for Aegon even after Dany hatched dragons!!! This, IMO, is the strongest evidence that Aegon was always their priority, and not because he had the best chances of success (i.e. being male and looking a lot like Rhaegar while not being insane like Viserys) - after all, once the dragons hatched, Dany was clearly best positioned to claim the Targaryen crown. No, they wanted Aegon for who he was, otherwise they could have switched allegiance to Dany. Which means that Aegon is not a random imposter, but rather is a true Targaryen (or maybe Blackfyre, but eh, the Blackfyres have come up so very little in the series that this would kind of come out of nowhere, IMO). 

 

On 17/07/2016 at 6:22 PM, Nevets said:

Whoever Daenerys's parents are (I am of the opinion they are Aerys and Rhaella), at least one of them has to be a Targaryen.  Daenerys hatching three dragons out of a pyre is as clear a sign that she is a Targaryen as Jon having a direwolf is that he is a Stark.  That she is a Targaryen is unquestionable.  That means Ashara and any Stark is out.

I am inclined to agree with this - Dany not having ANY Targaryen blood seems unlikely. Even if the Daynes descended from dragonlords (possible, based on their Valyrian looks), we have never heard of any of them dreaming about dragons, attempting to hatch any, or giving birth to terrible malformed children- all of which are common for Targs, and all of which have happened to Dany. [On the other hand, we don't see ANY of these traits in Jon, do we? ] 

So what options does this leave us for Dany? Well, to be half Dayne (very strong resemblance to Ashara being the main argument for this, along with a possible early childhood in Dorne) and half Targaryen, we have:

Rhaegar + Ashara or Arthur + Rhaella

I'll come back to this later when I have more time, but in short, since Arthur being Dany's dad would add little to the story, I prefer option 1. 

 

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1 hour ago, MaesterSam said:

So what options does this leave us for Dany? Well, to be half Dayne (very strong resemblance to Ashara being the main argument for this, along with a possible early childhood in Dorne) and half Targaryen, we have:

Rhaegar + Ashara or Arthur + Rhaella

I'll come back to this later when I have more time, but in short, since Arthur being Dany's dad would add little to the story, I prefer option 1. 

 

I agree that Dany is half a Dayne given Selmy's confirmation that she is a younger version of Ashara among other things.  I have a problem with Rhaegar as her father.  Rhaegar already thinks he has produced the tPwiP when Aegon is born.  I think it more likely that Aerys is her father rather than Rhaegar given Aery's proclivities in that direction.

When Dany sees Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon in the HoU; Rhaegar tells Ashara/Dany that there must be one more.  I think this has more to do with finding three guardians or heads of the dragon.  This seems to be Aemon's interpretation when he says that he must help guide her as one of the heads although he is too old. So we see three KG guardians at the ToJ and then later, Jon Connington, Haldon Halfmaester and Septa Lemore in charge of fAegon's education and upbringing.  Along with 3 additional guardians.   If Rhaegar was so certain that Aegon was the PwiP, he and Elia would have taken measures to make sure that he was somewhere out of harm's way during Robert's Rebellion. Most likely the child who is being guarded at the ToJ rather than Jon or Dany.

This is probably the most likely the reason that Ned and Robert had a huge fight before Ned left for the ToJ.  I suspect he was given orders to kill the child that was there and end the Targ line.  Something Ned refused to do, sending Aegon into hiding instead and lying to Robert about it.

I think it's also possible that neither prophecy has anything to do with Aegon.  Dany is an unexpected outlier; the story is that she is the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella even if she is not.  That still fits the prophecy because that is the 'official' story of her parentage.

I think the prophecies will unfold in unexpected ways.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I agree that Dany is half a Dayne given Selmy's confirmation that she is a younger version of Ashara among other things.  I have a problem with Rhaegar as her father.  Rhaegar already thinks he has produced the tPwiP when Aegon is born.  I think it more likely that Aerys is her father rather than Rhaegar given Aery's proclivities in that direction.

When Dany sees Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon in the HoU; Rhaegar tells Ashara/Dany that there must be one more.  I think this has more to do with finding three guardians or heads of the dragon.  This seems to be Aemon's interpretation when he says that he must help guide her as one of the heads although he is too old.

I agree that the third head of the dragon doesn't necessarily have to be Rhaegar's child, but I do think that the three heads must have dragon blood - which, based on what info we have, means they have to either be (part) Targaryen or possibly Blackfyre (an extinct house, at least officially, and as I've said before, they have come up so very little that it would be weird to have that be the twist). That's why Aemon would have fit the bill.

At the time Rhaegar said it, his two children were the only children with dragon blood in the world (as far as we know), and Rhaella had been failing at childbirth more often than not - so I don't know where he would have hoped to find "one more" if not by his own doing. 

The main reason I like the Rhaegar + Ashara combination is that before marrying Elia, he had sent Steffon Baratheon across the narrow sea to find him a noble maiden with Valyrian blood. So that's the kind of wife (and mother of his children) that he wanted. But, Steffon failed and anyhow died on the way back, so Rhaegar gave up on his dream of a Valyrian beauty and instead married Elia who at least had  a drop of dragon blood from the first Daenarys. Imagine Elia moving in and bringing his dream bride along with her! We know from Ser Barristan that, compared to Ashara, Elia was "a kitchen drab" and sickly besides. It doesn't seem like too much of a stretch that Rhaegar (himself the most desirable man in the Seven Kingdoms according to Everybody) would get with Ashara, especially after his wife was unable to bear him the third child he hoped for. 

Regarding Aerys and Ashara, the main things that speak against it (IMO) are that we never heard of Ashara "suddenly" leaving court very upset, and the bigger problem, that Aerys' kingsguard were led by Ashara's brother. 

I'm pretty sure that if Aerys had raped Ashara and this had gotten back to either Ser Barristan or Ser Arthur, Jaime wouldn't be the one they call the Kingslayer. 

Rhaegar, on the other hand, could have taken her as his paramour, and as long as she was willing, I doubt that his good friend Arthur would have minded. This kind of thing is ok in Dorne. Especially if their child was going to save the world. 

 

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

So we see three KG guardians at the ToJ and then later, Jon Connington, Haldon Halfmaester and Septa Lemore in charge of fAegon's education and upbringing.  Along with 3 additional guardians.   If Rhaegar was so certain that Aegon was the PwiP, he and Elia would have taken measures to make sure that he was somewhere out of harm's way during Robert's Rebellion. Most likely the child who is being guarded at the ToJ rather than Jon or Dany.

This is probably the most likely the reason that Ned and Robert had a huge fight before Ned left for the ToJ.  I suspect he was given orders to kill the child that was there and end the Targ line.  Something Ned refused to do, sending Aegon into hiding instead and lying to Robert about it.

Interesting, and a great point. I think the official counterargument is that Rhaegar expected to win at the Trident, so it wouldn't have occurred to him to send his family away from King's Landing. There is also a theory that Tywin was on his side (as opposed to Aerys') and was supposed to come to his aid, but then betrayed him and sacked KL instead of helping at the Trident. This would explain how a smart guy like Rhaegar could have miscalculated the Trident battle so dramatically, and be so confident in a win. 

But I like the idea of Aegon at the TOJ. I'm just not sure how he would have ended up in Varys' care if Ned was the one who found him. Ned doesn't seem to think about Varys at all, ever, and doesn't seem to particularly like him either. And why would Ned kill the three KG just to get at this baby, only to then send it to safety with someone else? He could have just told them to take Aegon and run off to Essos, and then the present-day Aegon would have Ser Arthur Dayne with him instead of Haldon Halfmaester. 

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1 hour ago, MaesterSam said:

I agree that the third head of the dragon doesn't necessarily have to be Rhaegar's child, but I do think that the three heads must have dragon blood - which, based on what info we have, means they have to either be (part) Targaryen or possibly Blackfyre (an extinct house, at least officially, and as I've said before, they have come up so very little that it would be weird to have that be the twist). That's why Aemon would have fit the bill.

At the time Rhaegar said it, his two children were the only children with dragon blood in the world (as far as we know), and Rhaella had been failing at childbirth more often than not - so I don't know where he would have hoped to find "one more" if not by his own doing. 

The main reason I like the Rhaegar + Ashara combination is that before marrying Elia, he had sent Steffon Baratheon across the narrow sea to find him a noble maiden with Valyrian blood. So that's the kind of wife (and mother of his children) that he wanted. But, Steffon failed and anyhow died on the way back, so Rhaegar gave up on his dream of a Valyrian beauty and instead married Elia who at least had  a drop of dragon blood from the first Daenarys. Imagine Elia moving in and bringing his dream bride along with her! We know from Ser Barristan that, compared to Ashara, Elia was "a kitchen drab" and sickly besides. It doesn't seem like too much of a stretch that Rhaegar (himself the most desirable man in the Seven Kingdoms according to Everybody) would get with Ashara, especially after his wife was unable to bear him the third child he hoped for. 

Regarding Aerys and Ashara, the main things that speak against it (IMO) are that we never heard of Ashara "suddenly" leaving court very upset, and the bigger problem, that Aerys' kingsguard were led by Ashara's brother. 

I'm pretty sure that if Aerys had raped Ashara and this had gotten back to either Ser Barristan or Ser Arthur, Jaime wouldn't be the one they call the Kingslayer. 

Rhaegar, on the other hand, could have taken her as his paramour, and as long as she was willing, I doubt that his good friend Arthur would have minded. This kind of thing is ok in Dorne. Especially if their child was going to save the world. 

 

 

Interesting, and a great point. I think the official counterargument is that Rhaegar expected to win at the Trident, so it wouldn't have occurred to him to send his family away from King's Landing. There is also a theory that Tywin was on his side (as opposed to Aerys') and was supposed to come to his aid, but then betrayed him and sacked KL instead of helping at the Trident. This would explain how a smart guy like Rhaegar could have miscalculated the Trident battle so dramatically, and be so confident in a win. 

But I like the idea of Aegon at the TOJ. I'm just not sure how he would have ended up in Varys' care if Ned was the one who found him. Ned doesn't seem to think about Varys at all, ever, and doesn't seem to particularly like him either. And why would Ned kill the three KG just to get at this baby, only to then send it to safety with someone else? He could have just told them to take Aegon and run off to Essos, and then the present-day Aegon would have Ser Arthur Dayne with him instead of Haldon Halfmaester. 

I think Ned swapped Aegon for Jon who seems to have been at Starfall.  I suspect that Walys Flowers is actually Haldon Haflmaester since Flowers was the son of an Archmaester and a noble woman... so half a maester.  Ned's big issue when Robert wants him to have Dany assassinated is that he thought the war they fought was to end the killing of children.  It so angers Ned that he quits and intends to leave as fast as possible back to Winterfell.  This sounds like an old wound torn open again and it seems to me something similar happened regarding Ned's orders for the confrontation at the ToJ.  

My thinking is that Jon was born on the day that Robert won the three battles of Summerhall on the Quiet Isle where Lyanna died.  At that time, Ned would have been traveling from the Eyrie to Winterfell.  So it's conceivable that he found her there with Walys Flowers.   The famous words 'they found him there' would indicate the Silent Brothers and the reason that Lyanna's whereabouts were unknown and why Ned never holds Rhaegar responsible for her disappearance.  She left of her own accord with the maester that the Starks trusted.  The Quiet Isle is also a smugglers port so Walys was sent into hiding with Jon on Ned's orders. 

Varys would certainly know the whereabouts of Rhaegar's son, and Aerys would have known as well, since the KG are sworn to him. Varys was probably involved with any swaps since he uses children for his own purposes.  If Ned send Ashara and Walys with Aegon across the Narrow Sea that would certainly fit Ned's MO where Cersei and her children are concerned.  Varys wouldn't have any difficulty discovering their whereabouts or setting up Illyrio as their benefactor.   

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8 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

Barristan, as a member of the Kingsguard, would also have been very familiar with Rhaella - but he never once thinks that Dany resembles her mother. Not once.

Random thought that doesn't hurt this idea (or help it, tbh):

I suspect there's a good chance that none of the other kids resemble Rhaella either - because I suspect Rhaella herself doesn't have the traditional Targaryen looks.   My bet is that she (and her mother Shaera) actually looks like her Blackwood grandmother, and the fandom just assumes she looks just like Aerys and Dany/Viserys.  I think there's a reason we don't have physical descriptions of ANY the Targaryen ladies born from Aegon V's marriage onward...until we get to Dany, and this will come into play with great importance later in the series.

Point being, since Rhaegar and Viserys obviously got the dominant Targaryen traits from Aerys, it might not matter too much or raise much suspicion if "Dany" turned out to not look much like her mother (if I'm right and Rhaella had dark hair and/or dark eyes).    Her brothers already didn't/wouldn't either, so as long as she 'matches' them well enough she can pass muster as their sister...even if she isn't actually Aerys & Rhaella's child.

Also, If Rhaella did indeed have Blackwood coloring, then really, any child of Rhaegar's with a dark-haired woman, whether Elia or otherwise - like, say, Ashara Dayne - that popped out with dark hair and/or eyes could also be easily rolled up in the "grandmother's looks" category.

/random

 

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think Ned swapped Aegon for Jon who seems to have been at Starfall.  I suspect that Walys Flowers is actually Haldon Haflmaester since Flowers was the son of an Archmaester and a noble woman... so half a maester. 

Wow!!! I definitely never made that connection, but damn that fits nicely, and does that ever tie the Starks in with Aegon's storyline. I am really going to have to rethink some things now. Hat off to you! :bowdown:

(Also I like that this would make Jon be Ned and Ashara's love child. It's my favorite scenario, and I like any theory that makes it come true. :D ) 

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think Ned swapped Aegon for Jon who seems to have been at Starfall.  I suspect that Walys Flowers is actually Haldon Haflmaester since Flowers was the son of an Archmaester and a noble woman... so half a maester.  Ned's big issue when Robert wants him to have Dany assassinated is that he thought the war they fought was to end the killing of children.  It so angers Ned that he quits and intends to leave as fast as possible back to Winterfell.  This sounds like an old wound torn open again and it seems to me something similar happened regarding Ned's orders for the confrontation at the ToJ.  

Interesting observation. Ned seems to be abnormally strongly opposed to child murder. I mean, sure, it's a terrible thing, but in those days it happened all the time. Just look at the rest of the small council: Varys, Pycelle, Littlefinger (ok, not great examples, lol) but also Renly, they are all willing to send the order. Robert is supporting it too. I doubt Stannis would object, lol. The Karstark lord murdered the two Lannister children. Jaime threw Bran out the window. ETC. The point is, nobody seemed even remotely as upset about it as Ned. Why is that? Is he just that good of a person, compared to everyone else? Or did something happen to make him feel especially strongly about it? (Or, does he know Dany is Ashara's and that's why he reacts so strongly?  I think that's another popular way to interpret this scene. Then again, knowing Aegon is out there, and seeing how Robert still feels about Targaryens, could have a similar effect as he fears for the boy.).

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

My thinking is that Jon was born on the day that Robert won the three battles of Summerhall on the Quiet Isle where Lyanna died.  At that time, Ned would have been traveling from the Eyrie to Winterfell.  So it's conceivable that he found her there with Walys Flowers.   The famous words 'they found him there' would indicate the Silent Brothers and the reason that Lyanna's whereabouts were unknown and why Ned never holds Rhaegar responsible for her disappearance.  She left of her own accord with the maester that the Starks trusted.  The Quiet Isle is also a smugglers port so Walys was sent into hiding with Jon on Ned's orders. 

Varys would certainly know the whereabouts of Rhaegar's son, and Aerys would have known as well, since the KG are sworn to him. Varys was probably involved with any swaps since he uses children for his own purposes.  If Ned send Ashara and Walys with Aegon across the Narrow Sea that would certainly fit Ned's MO where Cersei and her children are concerned.  Varys wouldn't have any difficulty discovering their whereabouts or setting up Illyrio as their benefactor.   

Hmm, why the Quiet Isle? How would she have gotten there? Don't they tell Brienne they don't normally take women? 

I like the idea of Lyanna taking Walys Flowers with her, and that that's why he is no longer at Winterfell. And I like him being the Halfmaester, though I'm not sure why Ned would send away his own maester (permanently!) with this Targaryen child. Unless of course protecting Aegon was somehow part of the promise. If Lyanna truly loved Rhaegar, and he shared the prophecy with her (regardless of whether it's true), maybe she made Ned promise to keep Aegon safe? And knowing Robert, Ned did the best he could and sent the maester along with him. 

Regarding Ashara, I wonder even more why she would do it. Her brother had just died trying to .... ah , wait. To protect this child. I see. Ok maybe this works better than I thought. :D

This is a great new theory, and would combine nicely with Arthur also being Mance, which would nicely explain why the present-day Daynes named their heir after Ned (he spared Arthur), and why Mance looked out for Ned's son when he should have killed him on the spot. Would he have really believed that a STARK would betray the NIGHT'S WATCH after just a few months??? Never. But he took him in anyway, and even sent this new recruit of questionable loyalty over the Wall with the small group, giving him the opportunity to warn the others. 

I always love it when multiple theories I enjoy begin to fuse together - it feels like we're going in the right direction!

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